PCEngineFans.com - The PC Engine and TurboGrafx-16 Community Forum
NEC TG-16/TE/TurboDuo => TG-16/TE/TurboDuo Discussion => Topic started by: Pat the NES Punk on December 27, 2010, 02:02:04 AM
-
In this holiday special, Pat examines his second favorite game console: the Turbografx 16!
http://thepunkeffect.com/?p=936
-
Excellent video, Pat! You did an wonderful job on giving an overview of the system and explaining why the system failed. I think NEC dug themselves a hole by pricing their systems significantly higher than Nintendo and the rest of the companies, especially since they were newcomers in the video game industry. This was especially true for the Turbo Express and Turbo CD attachment which were about $300 and $350 respectively when they initially launched even though they were very techically advanced at the time. Most companies sold their systems at a loss in order to entice consumers to buy the system and other games.
Congrats on your MC purchase!
Great job on your review once again. I'd love to see you review some turbob games in the future as well. :)
-
Good point on the prices. The system itself was competitively priced, but when you had to spend $50 more just to get two players, it then wasn't. I don't know what NEC was thinking. They should have taken some initial loss, as you said, just to get the system into kids' houses. I'm sure oversizing the system compared to the PCE didn't help their production costs either. :p
-
I see you did the right thing and put Magical Chase in a proper case instead of the plastic tray + cardboard box.
-
Alright Pat! I always enjoyed your NES work as Starsoldier1 on Youtube but it's so cool to see your a Turbografx-16 fan too.
-
Alright Pat! I always enjoyed your NES work as Starsoldier1 on Youtube but it's so cool to see your a Turbografx-16 fan too.
Starsoldier1! Nice to see you on here, bud.
-
What up with the f*cking advertisement?? :evil: :evil: :evil:
-
What up with the f*cking advertisement?? :evil: :evil: :evil:
Bliptv always does that though. There's no ads on the YT vid he did as well.
-
Excellent video, Pat! You did an wonderful job on giving an overview of the system and explaining why the system failed. I think NEC dug themselves a hole by pricing their systems significantly higher than Nintendo and the rest of the companies, especially since they were newcomers in the video game industry. This was especially true for the Turbo Express and Turbo CD attachment which were about $300 and $350 respectively when they initially launched even though they were very techically advanced at the time. Most companies sold their systems at a loss in order to entice consumers to buy the system and other games.
Congrats on your MC purchase!
Great job on your review once again. I'd love to see you review some turbob games in the future as well. :)
I think one other key element of the TurboGrafx's failure left out of the conversation was the fact that the best games released in Japan were mostly on CD-ROM. CD-ROM technology was still VERY expensive in the early 1990s and this lead to the CD-ROM not being as widely supported in North America as it could have been, and ultimately the platforms fate was tied to the cost of investing in the CD hardware. Considering at that time most video game systems were thought in the US to be "For Kids" the number of adopters were limited for the time period as parents didn't want to spend 2-3X the cost of a competing system for the CD-ROM add on or Duo.
-
that was funny when you lowered your head and said you'll never get it. excellent video
-
two thumbs way up!! great job!!
-
I think one other key element of the TurboGrafx's failure left out of the conversation was the fact that the best games released in Japan were mostly on CD-ROM. CD-ROM technology was still VERY expensive in the early 1990s and this lead to the CD-ROM not being as widely supported in North America as it could have been, and ultimately the platforms fate was tied to the cost of investing in the CD hardware. Considering at that time most video game systems were thought in the US to be "For Kids" the number of adopters were limited for the time period as parents didn't want to spend 2-3X the cost of a competing system for the CD-ROM add on or Duo.
There were a ton of HuCard games that would have helped the TG16 had they come over from Japan too. Like Gradius, Afterburner II, Salamander, Ninja Gaiden, Street Fighter II', Shinobi, and surely others.
-
Heh. Nice video.
"Don't touch me." :lol:
-
I think one other key element of the TurboGrafx's failure left out of the conversation was the fact that the best games released in Japan were mostly on CD-ROM. CD-ROM technology was still VERY expensive in the early 1990s and this lead to the CD-ROM not being as widely supported in North America as it could have been, and ultimately the platforms fate was tied to the cost of investing in the CD hardware. Considering at that time most video game systems were thought in the US to be "For Kids" the number of adopters were limited for the time period as parents didn't want to spend 2-3X the cost of a competing system for the CD-ROM add on or Duo.
There were a ton of HuCard games that would have helped the TG16 had they come over from Japan too. Like Gradius, Afterburner II, Salamander, Ninja Gaiden, Street Fighter II', Shinobi, and surely others.
That falls into the third party support problem already touched on. Gradius, Salamander were Konami games, and Konami was under Nintendo's publishing monopoly in the early part of the Turbo's lifespan. Afterburner 2 and Shinobi were games that would have had to be licensed from Sega which would have been a challenge (yes, I know Fantasy Zone got released for the US TG16 but I'm sure there were hoops to jump through with that as well). Ninja Gaiden would have had a similar problem as it would need to be licensed from not just Hudson who ported it but Tecmo. Nintendo's licensing practices had a big effect on the TG16.
-
That falls into the third party support problem already touched on. Gradius, Salamander were Konami games, and Konami was under Nintendo's publishing monopoly in the early part of the Turbo's lifespan. Afterburner 2 and Shinobi were games that would have had to be licensed from Sega which would have been a challenge (yes, I know Fantasy Zone got released for the US TG16 but I'm sure there were hoops to jump through with that as well). Ninja Gaiden would have had a similar problem as it would need to be licensed from not just Hudson who ported it but Tecmo. Nintendo's licensing practices had a big effect on the TG16.
By 1992 or so, Nintendo's strong-arming of 3rd party publishers was just about at an end, and that's when NEC really should have went back and tried to give the US market surge one more try. Not releasing SF2 just to try and stay on the same level as the SNES and Genesis in the US is just about inexcusable. Or what about something like Ninja Gaiden Trilogy on the Turbografx? Why didn't they release Castlevania here? Doing things like this wouldn't have pushed the system to the moon, but it would have least kept the system in the conversation with the other two, you know?
-
By 1992 or so, Nintendo's strong-arming of 3rd party publishers was just about at an end, and that's when NEC really should have went back and tried to give the US market surge one more try. Not releasing SF2 just to try and stay on the same level as the SNES and Genesis in the US is just about inexcusable. Or what about something like Ninja Gaiden Trilogy on the Turbografx? Why didn't they release Castlevania here? Doing things like this wouldn't have pushed the system to the moon, but it would have least kept the system in the conversation with the other two, you know?
Yes, but by 1992 The TurboGrafx platform had fallen into a very niche section of the marketplace. When TTI was formed, it was formed not with the intention of going head to head with Nintendo or Sega and beating them, but with the intention of trying to keep the platform alive on a smaller scale by producing product that appealed to enthusiasts. By the time third parties would have been ready to start publishing for the Turbo it was too late, as its fate was already sealed in North America.
Castlevania came out in late 1993, even if TTI had managed to license it from Konami, it never would have made it out the door with their slow turnaround time for localizing games.
Added in edit: I guess a few more things to take into account. Street Fighter 2 would have required people to invest in at least one new controller as no US 6-button pad was produced along with the game itself, and since it was such a popular two player game most likely someone who just bought a Duo would need to buy a tap as well furthering their investment. And Street Fighter 2 for PCE was a 1993 release, again it was just too late in the Turbo's lifecycle to turn things around. The big problem was this, by 1992 the focus was on making a niche platform. Something like licensing SF2 or Castlevania would have cost a lot, and wouldn't have yielded big market share gains. It merely would have made those US releases more sought after years later.
TTI lacked the money to make a big push with the Turbo, and by 1993 many mainstream retailers were moving Turbo stuff off the shelves in place of newer more technically sophisticated platforms like the Jaguar and 3DO.
Added in edit #2: And just to clarify a little bit further. TTI had VERY little money to spend on licensing and because of the systems abysmal market share luring third parties besides Working Designs to publish titles just wasn't happening in North America by 1992. This basically led to most of the later releases being Hudson Soft developed games that a licensing agreement was already established for.
-
"Ok, I show you Bomberman *vomits*" :lol:
-
Castlevania came out in late 1993, even if TTI had managed to license it from Konami, it never would have made it out the door with their slow turnaround time for localizing games.
That's a game they should have put their asses in gear for. Hell, Konami should have released it themselves. Sure, it would have crappy SOTN-style English voices, but it'd still be out and it'd still be awesome. It would have definitely helped, a lot of those Super CD games would have.
-
By 1992 or so, Nintendo's strong-arming of 3rd party publishers was just about at an end, and that's when NEC really should have went back and tried to give the US market surge one more try. Not releasing SF2 just to try and stay on the same level as the SNES and Genesis in the US is just about inexcusable. Or what about something like Ninja Gaiden Trilogy on the Turbografx? Why didn't they release Castlevania here? Doing things like this wouldn't have pushed the system to the moon, but it would have least kept the system in the conversation with the other two, you know?
Yes, but by 1992 The TurboGrafx platform had fallen into a very niche section of the marketplace. When TTI was formed, it was formed not with the intention of going head to head with Nintendo or Sega and beating them, but with the intention of trying to keep the platform alive on a smaller scale by producing product that appealed to enthusiasts. By the time third parties would have been ready to start publishing for the Turbo it was too late, as its fate was already sealed in North America.
That's all great information Dan. I guess I'm just not understanding how it would take a lot of money from TTI to get games released in the US that were already released in Japan (and popular there). This goes for Konami, Capcom, or any other company. It would have benefited Capcom to make as much money as possible by releasing SF2 on as many systems as possible (which they just about did). Why would they require a lot of licensing dollars just to release their own game in the US when it was already released in Japan? That'd be shooting themselves in the foot. I mean, realistically, how many copies could they have sold on the Turbografx? 15K? 25K? More? Even if it's not a huge amount, profit is profit. I'm sure everyone could have come to *some* sort of agreement to get it done if they had really wanted to.
As for a 6 button controller issue... Sega released one almost specifically for Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition, so I don't see why it would be an issue for the Turbografx to have the same. Hell, pack in a controller with the game for $60 and you'd sell a bunch of those. Then you could sell an extra controller on the side. As for having to purchase a Turbo Tap, that was just a dumb and short-sighted decision all around.
-
That's all great information Dan. I guess I'm just not understanding how it would take a lot of money from TTI to get games released in the US that were already released in Japan (and popular there). This goes for Konami, Capcom, or any other company. It would have benefited Capcom to make as much money as possible by releasing SF2 on as many systems as possible (which they just about did). Why would they require a lot of licensing dollars just to release their own game in the US when it was already released in Japan? That'd be shooting themselves in the foot. I mean, realistically, how many copies could they have sold on the Turbografx? 15K? 25K? More? Even if it's not a huge amount, profit is profit. I'm sure everyone could have come to *some* sort of agreement to get it done if they had really wanted to.
Here's your answer, TTI had about a 40 million dollar operating budget as a whole company from NEC. That's not just for licensing games but for advertising, distribution, purchase of hardware, and everything, just a fraction of what Nintendo and Sega spent on say Advertising alone. For it to be worth it to Konami to license Dracula X, even 1 million dollars would have been a huge blow to TTI to spend, especially on a game where there were around 30K (and this is a generous number) Super CD-ROM systems in circulation in North America. Even if everyone who owned a Duo or Super CD card bought the game, it would be difficult to turn a profit on such an expensive license and the risk was astronomical.
As far as Street Fighter 2 goes, HuCards weren't cheap to manufacture (and all had to be manufactured by Hudson of Japan which was part of the reason NEC tried to get out of the business by starting TTI), by 1993 when CE was released in Japan the US TurboGrafx was basically only sold by Toys R us, Babbages, EB Games, Software Etc and smaller independent game stores. It was also developed by Hudson licensed from Capcom.
So there's two possible ways a US release would have been handled, way #1 Capcom publishes it themselves. Seems simple enough, Capcom would license the port done by Hudson soft. This would cost Capcom money in one way or another. Next they would need a licensed 6-button controller to be released in the US, this would require TTI buying and distributing additional inventory just for one game. So then they need TTI's full cooperation on this. By the time all of these factors could be worked out, the Genesis and SNES versions of Champion Edition would already have been out, and as I mentioned the Turbo was a niche platform. If people who owned a Turbo REALLY wanted Street Fighter II CE they could very easily have bought it since they're highly likely to have owned one of the other systems.
Way #2 Would involve TTI licensing it from Capcom (the Hudson part shouldn't be an issue), but they still have to buy large inventory of a 20ish meg HuCard (read expensive to produce) of a game that would soon (if not already) be out for two other platforms. In addition to having to buy inventory for a 6-button controller. Remember, all of TTI's inventory HAD to come from NEC and Hudson of Japan. The cost would have been high, and the payoff minimal. If Street Fighter II CE was a timed exclusive (for a year or more) then it might have been beneficial, but it wasn't.
Added in edit:
As for a 6 button controller issue... Sega released one almost specifically for Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition, so I don't see why it would be an issue for the Turbografx to have the same. Hell, pack in a controller with the game for $60 and you'd sell a bunch of those. Then you could sell an extra controller on the side. As for having to purchase a Turbo Tap, that was just a dumb and short-sighted decision all around.
The 6-button controller problem is bigger than it sounds, remember TTI has very little money to operate. This requires, producing lots of 6-button controllers and releasing them in the US. Creating packaging for the 6-button controllers in the US, and then potentially getting stuck with unsold inventory of 6-button controllers in the US. This is also why the arcade card didn't come out here.
As far as packing the controller in with the game, the problem here is SF II was an expensive HuCard to produce to begin with, at 60.00 (only 10.00 more than a normal release) the profit margin would be little to non-existent for a bundle at that price. With a huge risk of excess expensive inventory.
I should probably add this as well. Nintendo of America is a subsidiary of Nintendo of Japan who produced the Super NES and its official hardware. TTI had to buy their inventory from a combination of NEC and Hudson from their operating budget. Something like a new controller rollout was far easier for Sega than for TTI because TTI had too many loops to jump through to get something like that off the ground.
Further Edit: I should probably give you some background on how TTI was set up and why that was such a disaster. In early 1992, NEC Home Electronics USA decided they were sick of losing money on the TurboGrafx 16. There were a number of reasons they were losing money on it, one of which was they had to purchase most of their software inventory from Hudson soft who also got a cut of the entire business. In early 1992 Hudson and NEC came to an agreement to continue marketing the TurboGrafx in the US. Realizing that Sega had a huge Holiday season and that catching up to them was no longer likely and that they wouldn't have the interest in investing as much money as Nintendo, they came up with the idea of starting a partnership firm called Turbo Technologies Inc to handle and market the system in the US. TTI was made up of a combination of Hudson and NEC employees who were then given a very strict budget and goals. The problem was they were still subjected to the same limits NEC was, they couldn't take bids on who could produce cheaper HuCards, all large licensing decisions had to be made by their Japanese counterparts. This led to very few options and very little money to license with. I DO know that an attempt was made to acquire Street Fighter II, but for the reasons I described above it was not pursued.
The Duo launched in Fall 1992 and by early 1993 a lot of stores started removing TurboGrafx products from their stores, this put TTI in a really tough situation as recruiting further third party publishers in the US (keep in mind, most of the larger Nintendo publishers like Konami and Capcom had only just started publishing for Sega in the US) almost impossible. The terrible franchising agreement set up with Hudson had a lot to do with the failure of the TurboGrafx as a platform and was not corrected when the new company was formed.
-
Thanks for filling in some of the blanks, Dan... sounded like a giant clusterF once TTI was formed, especially if the US staff were hand-cuffed and given limited operating independence like you described.
-
It was also developed by Hudson licensed from Capcom.
You sure mean by Nec Home Electronics ;)
-
You sure mean by Nec Home Electronics ;)
I could have sworn it was Hudson.
Anyway, I knew it was one of the two first party companies.
-
if i get rob does that mean he will buy me magical chase? hehe.
-
if i get rob does that mean he will buy me magical chase? hehe.
Yes it will, but ROB may try to kill you as well.