Is this an alternative to C?

[spenoza]

I really can't understand why Python seems to be taking over so much mind share in academia ... it's just like teaching BASIC.

And sorry, but any language where exact spacing is significant ... that's f**ked-up! 

My college roommate currently works for Mozilla in their education program. He's with them because they bought the startup he co-founded. He's very user-focused and loves Python particularly because, as computer languages go, it's very democratizing. I mean, he did do grad school under Jeff Raskin shortly before the man's death. So HCI is really important for him. Many schools probably assume most of their students will be doing business or web programming, since that's what most programming jobs these days seem to want, and learning those higher-level languages is a great way to dive right in. I think schools that put a lot of focus on assembly and lower-level stuff are providing students for very particular markets, rather than pushing out grads who will work their way up to databases, Java, and PHP and probably not interact beyond that world.

[spenoza]

FWIW, I ended with a CS degree and a history minor. That's what happens when you take all the elective stuff as regular courses, and fill the last semester with things like 'art appreciation'

That made me laugh. I haven't officially declared a minor, but it'll probably be psychology

I wish my college had offered a psyc minor. I took enough psyc classes. But I took one of those fuzzy interdisciplinary programs and so my courses were all over the place anyway.

[Arkhan]

Python is cute for math simulations and piddly little things, but as a larger language, it's pretty stupid.

Mostly because of the "tabs signal intent" thing.

Imposing formatting on the programmer is dumb.

[spenoza]

Python is cute for math simulations and piddly little things, but as a larger language, it's pretty stupid.

Mostly because of the "tabs signal intent" thing.

Imposing formatting on the programmer is dumb.

Certainly doesn't sound like it's your cup of tea, but there are a lot of creative and talented people doing good stuff with it. Artisans get to pick their tools. That's kinda how it works.

[Arkhan]

Python is cute for math simulations and piddly little things, but as a larger language, it's pretty stupid.

Mostly because of the "tabs signal intent" thing.

Imposing formatting on the programmer is dumb.

Certainly doesn't sound like it's your cup of tea, but there are a lot of creative and talented people doing good stuff with it. Artisans get to pick their tools. That's kinda how it works.

There's lots talented people making art out of garbage.  That's a thing.

[Bonknuts]

I'm not as critical of languages as most people, but I just didn't want to spend time with Python. Java has some use for me, so I'd rather have that in class so I spend less free time outside on my own getting to learn it. Otherwise I couldn't care less, personally.

 The reasons told to me for switching over to Python from Java, for the early part of the CS program, was that Java was too difficult for beginners. Apparently there's a high drop out rate of the CS program at this university because it's reportedly "too difficult". I'm guessing this complaint is part of the pre-major program classes.

 I don't think Java is difficult at all, and I've done a little bit of Python just out of curiosity, so I don't see that as a real issue. The problem I see is not syntax, but that the university doesn't offer any super-beginner courses for those that have never programmed before. This might sound odd, but there are students in my summer class that have never coded a day in their life. They're struggling in this class. I find that concept almost absurd.. why would you do a CS program with no experience? It's like me never playing an instrument but applying for the college of music.. type of mentality. I guess that's why there's a pre-major program in place to circumvent this and cater to these people (zero experience), but the initial classes don't adequately address this. I guess they think switching to Python is the solution.

 The problem I have with Python, is from what I've seen of what other programmers have stated - it's their first language and they're too afraid to move on something else. So they isolate themselves from other languages, etc. From reading many other programmers responses, that started with Java first, they had little issue moving onto something like C++ or C#, etc. I could be wrong on this, but I think Python is popular for the wrong reasons. And schools switching focus to cater to it, only facilitates this notion and culture. Schools should be focusing on concepts related to CS first and foremost, and a close second should be exposure to quite a few different languages. Force them to move outside their comfort zone.   

[spenoza]

why would you do a CS program with no experience? It's like me never playing an instrument but applying for the college of music.. type of mentality. I guess that's why there's a pre-major program in place to circumvent this and cater to these people (zero experience), but the initial classes don't adequately address this. I guess they think switching to Python is the solution.

With music, parents are willing to pay for private lessons, often. Not so with most other disciplines outside of sports. And since primary schools do such a poor job trying to deal with CS, colleges have to adapt. It's not a good situation for anyone.

I wish more colleges offered coding classes for non-majors. Something like Python or PHP with some JS and HTML could be useful in all sorts of different fields. But yeah, if you're going into a CS program, you should probably start with something a little more traditional, and if Python is called for add it later. Python is a great and easy to use language, but I don't know if I would consider it foundational the way I would something like Java.

[TheOldMan]

The reasons told to me for switching over to Python from Java, for the early part of the CS program, was that Java was too difficult for beginners. Apparently there's a high drop out rate of the CS program at this university because it's reportedly "too difficult".

We need a spit-take emoji. I'd use it here.
Of the 60 or so people who -started- the CS classes when I did, over half went to the business major after the first year. And about 1/3 of those remaining changed their major.
I think there were ~15 of us who finished the whole cirriculum. I do have to say, I was taught more than a bunch of languages - I was taught to program no matter what the language.

This might sound odd, but there are students in my summer class that have never coded a day in their life. They're struggling in this class.

Doesn't sound odd to me. I meet people like that all the time. They want the money programming pays. And after all, "How hard can it be?" <lol>
What the college really needs is to make them take something more than algebra to start the classes; something that makes you think logically, step-by-step. Math proofs the entire semester. And how to solve problems.

[Arkhan]

People at college lately do not learn how to program.  They learn how to write code.

and mostly learn how to like, do cookie cutter tasks, and that is it.

It should be a sink or swim setup.  Screw coddling people.  That's how you end up with tons of weak ass coworkers.

[Gredler]

Loving reading this thread, thanks for sharing the perspective and history stories.

I coded very rudimentary things as a kid in qbasic, and ZZT. I soon after learned html to make final fantasy and xenogears fan pages. The HTML knowledge floated me through college doing late 90s through mid 2000's style web pages, but my work kept leaning towards art more than programming. Programming was so much more math intensive, and difficult for me,  that I ended up focusing on art so much that it became my career.

Fast forward 10 years later and studios have access to hundreds of thousands of mind blowingly talented sculptors and painters to chose from. My skill set of " weak but above average for an artist technical understanding paired with crude  but sufficient artistic ability" is getting less competitive each day, and I need to plan the road ahead , so I started thinking furthering my technical abilities is probably the best idea.

When seeking advice on what to focus study on my leads all say Python Python Python. If I don't want to become an amazing sculptor, or paint like a master, than I will need to learn Python and HLSLPBR to handle HDR PBR results.

Python seems to be a required standard for technical artists, but I think knowing a lower level language trumps that requirement as it exemplifies a greater understanding of the craft.  Python is my current language of study, since they specifically asked me to learn it, but someday I'd like to try to learn asm or c, so I can homebrew solo

Regardless of writing code, programming, scripting, or creating shaders, I have to get better at math. I think it's impossible for me to get through these languages as an idiot with math (linear algebra is what I am told to become proficient in).

So I guess it's back to school for gredler within the next year or so. Kahn academy in the meantime

[Bonknuts]

Regardless of writing code, programming, scripting, or creating shaders, I have to get better at math. I think it's impossible for me to get through these languages as an idiot with math (linear algebra is what I am told to become proficient in).

So I guess it's back to school for gredler within the next year or so. Kahn academy in the meantime

 I honestly don't know how strong the correlation is between math and just programming in general. Obviously some fields are more demanding in relation to higher level math. I see a fracture in the CS field as it is now (BA vs BS). I guess that's understandable given the wide range of fields programmers go.

[spenoza]

Regardless of writing code, programming, scripting, or creating shaders, I have to get better at math. I think it's impossible for me to get through these languages as an idiot with math (linear algebra is what I am told to become proficient in).

So I guess it's back to school for gredler within the next year or so. Kahn academy in the meantime

 I honestly don't know how strong the correlation is between math and just programming in general. Obviously some fields are more demanding in relation to higher level math. I see a fracture in the CS field as it is now (BA vs BS). I guess that's understandable given the wide range of fields programmers go.

And in truth, while math is very important for specific kinds of coding and for logic, programming also has quite a lot in common with language, especially in how there's more than one way to do most tasks. So I think language acquisition and use skills are equally valuable.

[Bonknuts]

spenoza: I wouldn't doubt it. I mean, we string together really abstract concepts on the fly when we speak. I can see the similarities with programming constructs. It's just that the syntax is more precise in computer programming languages vs human language. But it wouldn't surprise me if it used some the same parts of the brain.

[Arkhan]

a strong background in discrete math helps with programming.

a strong background in algebra, and basic geo/trigonometry helps for game programming.