Which Sprite/Map/Block/Character editor is recommended?

[Arkhan]

One reason you shouldn't is that Photoshop saves palette data backwards in PCX images, if I recall, so you might run into headaches when importing them in HuC/MagicKit.

Yeah, you have to use something like GIMP to un-reverse them.  It's pretty annoying.

Photoshop can limit the image and do indexed palettes, though, so you can continue to use it, but will need another program to undo the palette-tarding.

So, this is why I'd just use a different program altogether.

[Gredler]

No apology needed ... we all had to start somewhere ... and this seems like a good place to ask. 


You said that you're using a "modern" engine ... do you mean that you're doing a "retro" project in something like Unity, or that you're actually targeting real PCE hardware in something like HuC?

Thanks so much for the understanding and open welcoming to my ignorance

Yes, exactly. I am not a programmer, but I am trying to learn as much as I can. I've been doing art for various engines, Unity and Unreal included, but also proprietary engines at places I've worked, for about 7 years now. My personal project is being made in Construct 2(http://www.scirra.com), a cheap and simplistic HTML5 based engine that has drag and drop scripting to replace most coding requirements, but I would love to eventually learn enough about programming to make an actual platform specific game such as TG-16, or Genesis. Right now I have a VERY basic idea of C#, and a few other languages, but that is the one I've studied the most, so I an unable to tackle projects with such low level coding requirements

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here about the number of colors ... do you mean the 16-per-character or 256-per-background/spriteset, or maybe the 512-color-3-bit-rgb-palette ?

The PCE has the usual 4th-generation 16-colors-per-individual-character-or-sprite ... but most people at the time used programs like Deluxe Paint or Deluxe Anim in 256-color mode to "simulate" up to 16 different 16-color palettes ... perfect for the PCE's 16-palette backgrounds and 16-palette sprites.

I've only been limiting my sprites to be 16 colors per sprite, but have not been paying attention to platform bit-rate specifications (worded correctly?). I have not been keeping track of the 9-bit, 3-bit, color palette restrictions. Just picking colors in photoshop, but only 16 per sprite or 256 per background. Do I need to be restricting the entire screen to 256 colors, or 512? or can each background have a different palette?

I found this link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monochrome_and_RGB_palettes , while researching to respond to your post. Is this accurate? On there it suggests using a 9-bit rgb palette if I were to emulate the look of TG-16 (and genesis). Is that because there are 3 3-bit channels to work with?

Photoshop was specifically written to do 24-bit "true-color" graphics and replace the old 256-color-or-less paletted graphics programs.

It sort-of handles paletted graphics ... but it's workflow really isn't designed around them.

I know that people have used it to do those ... but I suspect that most artists quickly move on to something else like "ProMotion" or maybe the "grafx2" or "NeoPaint" that have been mentioned, that make it easy to work with and manipulate paletted graphics.

Awesome, this makes perfect sense to me. I am so familiar with photoshop I just jumped straight to it and tried to manage the palet manually. I am actually curious, and will experiment today, with setting photoshop up to limit the pallet.

I am doing all of the "coding" right now, so it's really up to me what I use, and I'll probably download grafx2 and do some comparisons and tests later Thanks for the recommendation and help! I really appreciate you taking the time.

One reason you shouldn't is that Photoshop saves palette data backwards in PCX images, if I recall, so you might run into headaches when importing them in HuC/MagicKit.

Yeah, you have to use something like GIMP to un-reverse them.  It's pretty annoying.

Photoshop can limit the image and do indexed palettes, though, so you can continue to use it, but will need another program to undo the palette-tarding.

So, this is why I'd just use a different program altogether.

This makes complete sense. Yes I have been saving them as 16 color indexed pallets, but because I am not actually creating this art for PCE/TG-16 I do not need to reverse the palettes. Great to know if I did actually get to where I can start doing work on a PCE/TG-16 game, though, so thank you!

[Arkhan]

If you're going to do art for a specific machine, you do need to know the specifics of the machine, or you may risk giving image files to the programmer in a way that's a royal pain in the ass to deal with.

PCE uses indexed palettes.   9-bit RGB.   You have 16 palettes for the sprites, and 16 for the background.  Color 0 is shared in all BG palettes, and color 0 is transparent for sprites.

So, you ideally want to do all your work with the paint program set to indexed mode.  Every 16 colors is a new palette.   

So, if you do something like using colors 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,and then all of the sudden you use color 28 all on one sprite, you've now got problems.    You're mixing colors from various palettes.   This won't always work.

It's a bit goofy.  But, for example (pardon the color names, it's just an example):

Palette 1
0: blue
1: red
2: green
3: yellow
4: pink
5: magenta
6: dinosaur
7: polka dot
8: neon black
9: light urple
10: teal
11: gray
12: black
13: white
14: yellowey green
15: orangey red

PALETTE 2:
16
17
18
19
20
21
22: green
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31


Now, a sprite always has colors 0-15 on it, and simply uses whatever palette you set to it.  This is what indexed means.   Everything is just an index into a color palette.   

So, lets say you drew a sprite with Palette 1, and in your paint program, you decided for some reason to add the green that is in Palette 2. (Remember, every 16 colors will be a new palette on the PCE)

Rather than seeing green when you run it in the game, you will actually see DINOSAUR.

This is not what you want.   Maybe it is.   Probably isn't.

[Gredler]

If you're going to do art for a specific machine, you do need to know the specifics of the machine, or you may risk giving image files to the programmer in a way that's a royal pain in the ass to deal with.

PCE uses indexed palettes.   9-bit RGB.   You have 16 palettes for the sprites, and 16 for the background.  Color 0 is shared in all BG palettes, and color 0 is transparent for sprites.

So, you ideally want to do all your work with the paint program set to indexed mode.  Every 16 colors is a new palette.   

So, if you do something like using colors 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,and then all of the sudden you use color 28 all on one sprite, you've now got problems.    You're mixing colors from various palettes.   This won't always work.

It's a bit goofy.  But, for example (pardon the color names, it's just an example):

Palette 1
0: blue
1: red
2: green
3: yellow
4: pink
5: magenta
6: dinosaur
7: polka dot
8: neon black
9: light urple
10: teal
11: gray
12: black
13: white
14: yellowey green
15: orangey red

PALETTE 2:
16
17
18
19
20
21
22: green
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31


Now, a sprite always has colors 0-15 on it, and simply uses whatever palette you set to it.  This is what indexed means.   Everything is just an index into a color palette.   

So, lets say you drew a sprite with Palette 1, and in your paint program, you decided for some reason to add the green that is in Palette 2. (Remember, every 16 colors will be a new palette on the PCE)

Rather than seeing green when you run it in the game, you will actually see DINOSAUR.

This is not what you want.   Maybe it is.   Probably isn't.

Yes, this makes sense and explains a lot.

I am somewhat familiar with using CLUTS and 3DLUTS, so initially I thought I could create CLUTS and use them to limit which colors are available while working in photoshop. This however created very weird results, as described by your dinosaur example, but now it makes so much more sense when you break it down in text. Visually I was like wtf is going on, why are my blues turning red, etc.

This is so incredibly helpful, and explains so much why my art is close, but still off, and even more so why so many indie "retro" games look nothing like the platforms they're trying to resemble.

Today I am going to try and setup these CLUTS more carefully, knowing which colors are assigned to which index, and see what kind of photoshop workflows I can come up with. I may end up posting my results to see what you all think if I find anything I feel is useful

Thanks!





Edit: I'll say one thing, photoshop is not easy to assign which color is which index... lol but this has been fun today, trying to set this up