Is there a Turbo/PCE price guide floating around out there?

[thrush]

Although I'm not a collector per se I can totally understand wanting to gauge costs when starting something new.  Having said that, I think there are too many personal variables.  I regularly see items on here that make me think "That is soooo coool!" but then I have to ask myself, "Yeah, it's cool, but is it $XX worth of cool?"  Each person is going to answer that question differently.  Then, too, there is a large amount of reciprocity on a site like this, and a price guide just cannot reflect that.

If 90% of Turbo shoppers would pay as much as $5 for Keith Courage, but it usually goes unsold at higher asking prices, because it's rarely listed as low as $5, its value is actually <$5.

I really like the way you put this and I think the logic is inarguable.

Heres my price guide:
"Is game worth X.XX$ to me?"
followed by Yes+paypal payment or no+rom

Excellent system!  ^___^

[Sparky]

I know this thread is well intended, but I totally, utterly hate price guides.  If this thread was in Fighting Street I would drop some choice words.

1)  Noobs get ripped off because they're impatient, impulsive, click-happy idiots, not because they were left to fend without a price guide.
2)  Anyone who's been around six months already has a rough mental list.
3)  Most of you guys in favor of making a list base too much of it on ebay prices, which are currently insane and can be found out anyway by looking at BIN items and completed auctions.
4)  The list in turn legitimizes the prices asked by ebay parasites.
5)  The list also becomes the new rock-bottom price, creating fewer good deals here on the forums and other non-ebay markets.
6)  And yeah, it goes out of date real fast.

With good post like this one above, nats & Black Tigers it makes a lot of sense... i thought a guide would help the new guys so they dont get ripped off or help keep things in perspective but i can see now how a guide could make more of a problem.... well said guys & a group hug

[Senshi]

I think it would be useful as long as it had the type of comparative data that 16 bit is talking about. For example a price range that it has sold for (not listed for) including this and sites such as ebay, and was updated regularly. Maybe the two side by side? It would be next to impossible though to  keep a running tally here as people delete things and deals go down without a thread that links them. I think that would be my main issue, the accuracy and completeness of the pricing data.

Also, I don't get how the list legitmizes ebay "parasites"? I would say it discredits them.

[vestcoat]

Also, I don't get how the list legitmizes ebay "parasites"? I would say it discredits them.

Have you read any of the last two pages?

No one who is aware of a community-endorsed price list is ever going to sell below the quoted value.  They're going to point to the list and say, "the manual with my copy is really nice and the hucard is mint so it should be worth AT LEAST $XX."

All it takes is one bidding war between a couple of numbskulls who just got their tax returns and *bang* a game hits a new high water mark.  Meanwhile, some collector/"retro enthusiast"/price speculator/parasite notices the auction and thinks, "geewiz, I didn't know people were willing to pay $300 for Beyond Shadowgate!"  He then lists one of his four copies for $350 BIN.  Next, a price-list sympathizer at PCEFX sees both the completed auction and the new BIN price and thinks, "well, it looks like our list is out of date.  The "$100-200" quote for Beyond Shadowgate may have been accurate two years ago, but I'd better update it to $200-300 because the game is obviously worth more now" and the cycle continues.

[Black Tiger]

I think it would be useful as long as it had the type of comparative data that 16 bit is talking about. For example a price range that it has sold for (not listed for) including this and sites such as ebay, and was updated regularly. Maybe the two side by side? It would be next to impossible though to  keep a running tally here as people delete things and deals go down without a thread that links them. I think that would be my main issue, the accuracy and completeness of the pricing data.

Also, I don't get how the list legitmizes ebay "parasites"? I would say it discredits them.

With genuine collectible hobbies, things like sportscards, where most people are buying the items strictly for collecting, there have been professionally produced price guides for decades. Especially since the internet became popular and more people who have no clue what they're doing than those who do, began attempting to flip things they believe are "collector's items", they've misinterpreted every aspect of price guides.

The first problem, is that ignorant people take everything they read in guides as absolutes, since they're looking towards guides in the first place since they aren't very knowledgeable about what they're trying to make a profit on. But these are the kind of people who also don't understand what they're reading in the first place and they ALWAYS favor what benefits them the most. So condition grading scales are abused to the point that items from one end of the spectrum are described as being from the opposite. Just as bad, too many people pick up phrases along the way which are actual terms, like "very good" or "excellent" and use them randomly mixed it with other collectible terms to sound like they know what they are talking about. The most abuse terms are mint, near-mint and now with video games "new" or "like new".

Action figures and other packaged toys are priced in guides similar to video games, with prices for loose/complete and MIB/sealed values. But most people who are in it just to make a profit and rely on guides for everything will have a loose incomplete and damaged item, which they may or may not even be sure is the actual item they are looking at in a guide... and they will take the high end price for a MIB piece and try to sell it for as much as or more.

I was unfortunate enough to work at a collectible store for years and the worst influence on all the overpriced, mislabeled, horded and damaged items was collector/price guides. Because they cater to people who aren't familiar enough with the subject or hobby they cover. But what has happened to the video game market in recent years, so much more so the Turbo market, is worse than anything I ever saw with collectibles as collectibles, fads or otherwise.


But as has been said time and time again, whenever a new price guide thread comes up, if you're new to Turbo/PCE gaming and are looking for games to play, just ask those of us who are more familiar with everything. We're happy to give you genuine info, not just a static figure, and tell you the best way to go about obtaining a game depending on whether price or time is a factor. Whenever someone pays a gouged price, what they are really buying is time. I sometimes pay a premium for a game I really want right away. But too many people don't understand that and believe that what they are paying is the true value of a game and too many people refuse to evAR lose money on their "investments".

If anyone is interested in actually playing the games and not looking for collectibles first and foremost, we're lucky enough to be able to preview any game through emulation and watch gameplay videos online. It shouldn't matter what any game is valued at by other people, you should learn about a game and if it interests you enough that you'd like to play an original copy, all you have to do is decide how much you'd actually pay to play it. The reason the video game market is out of control is because this concept has been completely forgotten by most people. It's not like the Turbo/PCE has a tiny library either. So if a game you're interested in can't be purchased in any format for what you're willing to pay, there are always many alternatives. Consider yourself lucky if you acquire so many Turbo/PCE games that you are running out of games that you want that you can afford.

[Amadeusama]

I also detest price guides on principal, especially since they always come with some motarded condition system, at which point it becomes utterly subjective and self-deluding.

Basically I believe in free market deciding over the price. If there is demand, it will fetch a high price, if there is none it won't.
Admittedly, sometimes that works against me. Shooters (even the bad ones) are usually overpriced, but therefore really nice obscure games can be had for little money again and again.

Having said that, I don't have "issues" over insane prices people demand on eBay. Most of the time they don't even suffice to make me chuckle. I've been on eBay for some 12 years now, if memory serves, and have witnessed the nature of the game (and its players there) change and change repeatedly.
The only people getting rich are the eBay owners. But they get rich at the expense of these rabid profiteers, so no biggie to me.

One of the main reasons I dared take the plunge to get back into the PCE was that I was very happy to see that (on European eBay at least) there are plenty of stores where you can get games for sane prices. No, these items don't show up in the regular listings or searches, but they are there.

That is/was not so with some other potential candidates for topics of a collection. 

What I would like to see instead of a price guide is a simple but statistically accurate and well-founded rarity list.
Daisakusen mentions rarity on some games, but oftentimes their categorizing is NOT AT ALL what I see on eBay. In the sense that I see games that are "rarer" by their declaration on eBay all the time for dirt cheap, and others they call common hardly ever show up.

I have also learned to leave the "sealed" people alone. If I could snip my fingers and work magic, I would give the sealed fellas a priceguide for their sealed stuff only, but moved them into a pocket universe with padded walls where they can't hurt themselves or others.

[nat]

"Rare" has become a meaningless term when it comes to eBay. People use "rare" to describe any game that was made more than 10 years ago. In 2011, "rare" basically means "no longer available for purchase at major video game retail outlets."

Games like "Keith Courage" and other similarly common games are almost always hyped as "rare," perhaps in hopes that someone who doesn't know better just might pay a little extra. Typical eBay auction listings:

"KEITH COURAGE TG-16 TURBO GRAFX RARE L@@K"

or

"MAGICAL CHASE MINT TG-16 DUO GRAFX RARE"

Anyone whose been around the TG-16 scene more than five minutes knows that Magical Chase is legitimately more rare than KC, although neither one are actually what I would consider "rare." Rare, to me, implies something that doesn't show up for sale but a handful of times per year. Even MC seems to show up multiple times a month.

[Senshi]

Sooooo....essentially what most are saying is that we should simply have no reference at all because it might not be perfect? I should just come here an start a thread or PM people every time i have a question about prices? That's just ridiculous.

I have been reading the last two pages and it just seems like more of the same bitching about ebay sellers making money off of "stupid people". This stuff is in a secondary market now that its no longer in retail and by definition secondary markets can fluctuate wildly.

I figure this place would be the best to have a guide as to what to pay.

[vestcoat]

Sooooo....essentially what most are saying is that we should simply have no reference at all because it might not be perfect? I should just come here an start a thread or PM people every time i have a question about prices? That's just ridiculous.

No, you're using a straw man and jumping on the weakest part of the argument.  If that was the only reason, yes, it would be stupid not make a list.

Since you missed it, Black Tiger's main points are
1)  "[P]ro-price guide people refuse to accept decent, non-raping values that most people either do get the games for or would only pay for them."  They "dismiss reasonable prices as fantasy."
2)  Price guides don't reflect what most people are willing to pay for a game.
3)  People don't know how to read guides because they aren't familiar with the hobby and/or ignore the grading info and read the guide in the way that benefits them most.  

His first-person account of working in a collectibles shop is also very compelling.

My main points:
*  Most of the guys in favor of making a list base too much of it on ebay prices, which are currently insane...
*  The list in turn legitimizes the prices asked by ebay parasites.
*  The list also becomes the new rock-bottom price, creating fewer good deals here on the forums and other non-ebay markets.

Sign of Zeta:
"Most of the time people interested in price guides are either sellers or people who get a thrill from reading something that says their collection is valuable. Price guides are not famous for keeping prices low, just the opposite. "

Nat:
"A price guide, ESPECIALLY in the case of the Turbo, will only have a detrimental effect on the market. The market is in bad enough shape as it is right now, we don't need a "price guide" enabling these gougers."

But too many people...believe that what they are paying is the true value of a game and too many people refuse to evAR lose money on their "investments".

Quoted for truth.

Consider these examples of price-list ignorance/investment arrogance that were recently added to the Hall of Shame (emphasis added):
 

I looked around and those ebay prices [for Beyond Shadowgate] aren't far away from the ones on racketboy (the only place I could find with solid pricing), so considering that article is from last year I'd say there's amazingly non-insane.
http://www.racketboy.com/retro/turbografx-16/2010/07/the-rarest-most-valuable-pc-engine-turbografx-16-games.html

How about $255 shipped?

I left my references behind on pricing because it's f*cking true, dickwad.  I only have two sources I found for pricing.  Show me somewhere else that it's listed with a price and I'd have considered adjusting.

Am I supposed to take your word when you offer me $100 for a game I clearly see listed and selling for $200+?...
Values on shit change.

If you guys must know, I bought this [Beyond Shadowgate] for $160 a couple years back, so I could only assume it went up in value as it got older and more obscure.

This is a perfect example: the guy paid a lot for a game because he was impatient, didn't realize that half of his $160 was "buying time" (as BT explains), loved to look up the game in price guides and masturbate over its imagined worth, assumed its value went up drastically in the 1-3 years since he bought it and the racketboy article was printed, refused to take a loss, and dismissed the price quotes of 6-7 forums members as fantasy.

People buy at any price because they don't want to wait + they refuse to "take a loss" = prices skyrocket.

And on the flip side, since I need to repeat everything for you, fewer good deals are found the more prices are codified and advertised.

Consider this sale by gamedoctorhk:  http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=10093.new#new
I don’t know anything about gamedoctorhk, but his prices on both the website and ebay are generally consistent with other BIN sellers.  However, some things slip under his radar.  His "recent items for July" box still shows some sold-out items:
XE-1 HE Pro joystick - $18
1941  - $69

These are two great deals amid a website of pretty inflated prices.  He comes around here occasionally to advertise and would no doubt notice if we had a price list.  I'm not saying that we should promote ignorance so that we can rip people off - he or anyone else can always ask what a fair price is and we'll answer - but appraising is part of being a seller.  We're a community of gamers first, collectors second, and sellers a distant third.  It's in our interest to be able to find a good deal once in a while and it's not our job to etch prices in stone and educate every lurking ebay seller and price gouger.

EDIT:  Senshi - in case we're still not clear - WE'RE AGAINST PRICELISTS BECAUSE PRICELISTS RUIN THE MARKET FOR GAMERS.

[kattare]

Maybe slightly off topic, but...

WE'RE AGAINST PRICELISTS BECAUSE PRICELISTS RUIN THE MARKET FOR GAMERS.

I don't really think the people claiming to be in it for the gaming would care much about pricing on original chips?

From the CD/SCD "gamer" perspective:
  - you get a duo-r for $150, roughly the cost of ONE of the harder to find SCD titles.
  - then a CDR is what?  $0.25/ea?

From the HuCard "gamer" perspective:
  - you get the 64MB programable huey, ~$99, or about the cost of 6 decent huey games?
  - load it up with the game(s) of the week.

That's assuming the "gamer" wants to play on original hardware.  There's also emulators out the wazzu that are even cheaper.

Either way, the "gamer" perspective doesn't require buying what has essentially become collectibles, kinda like original transformers or gijoes... So why does everyone keep talking about TG/PCE collecting like it's ruining anything for the gamers?  Does.  Not.  Compute.

What it is doing is making it harder for the die-hard fans that also happen to be collectors by nature of their fan-dom to afford to continue collecting... and that I think will balance out in a couple of years when this generation gets over the hill and "16-bit" is no longer the retro cool thing of the day.

That, or someone in china will commission a new run of clone hueys and noone will be able to tell the difference and the market will drop out anyway!  (ok, ok, wishful thinking ;-)

**edit
<< I don't really think the people claiming to be in it for the gaming would care much about pricing?
>> I don't really think the people claiming to be in it for the gaming would care much about pricing on original chips?

[BlueBMW]

Very well put vestcoat!

Kattare, I agree that CDRs / Flashcarts are great for people who just want to play the games and not collect them. BUT, part of the nostalgia factor to many of us is playing that original cart.

Typical retro game play session experience (for me anyways)

"Hmm... I think I'll play some Turbo Grafx or PC Engine tonight"

Walk over to shelves of turbo / pce games

Peruse the various titles of games until one strikes my fancy!

Pull said game out of the shelf, admire (or laugh at) the cover art.

<optional> Thumb through the said game's manual for a few minutes

Slip the hucard (or CD) out of the case.

Pop the lid on the Duo and slip the hucard in... power on... and boom!  Party like its the early 90s again! 

[nat]

kattare, what about the fact that CD-Rs and flash carts are, you know, illegal if you don't already own a copy of the game?

This may not bother some people, but personally, I like to keep things totally legal and on-the-level. I don't have anything loaded on my flash cart that I don't already own. Indeed, I mainly use the flash cart for translations and the only CD-Rs I've ever burned have also been translations. Only games that I already own a copy of, however.

[SignOfZeta]

Kattare, there is a middle ground. A place I like to call "sanity" where I do want originals but I don't care what the shit is worth and I don't want to blow two months pay on a game. I'm not any more interested in warez than I am in a $3000 copy of Kieth Courage. I can't believe you can't understand this because I'm pretty sure most people into retrogaming are in this place of sanity.

CDRs suck. They dont track well, they have no manuals, etc. Flash carts are even worse because they don't f*cking work. If they do work, they might stop working when the next version of Windows comes out...or they might stop working just because they are shit. I've had my collection for 19 years. No flash card is going to last that long.

[kattare]

Blue, I very much agree that part of the nostalgia is the entire package.

Nat, I have mixed feelings about the legality... If I can't buy it in the store anymore, I don't feel morally obligated to pay $1800 to a collector for a game, vs downloading an image.  Either way it's not like the creator is out any cash.

Zeta, I see it, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate.  I both collect and game and way prefer to game on original gear.  ;-)

[nat]

Nat, I have mixed feelings about the legality... If I can't buy it in the store anymore, I don't feel morally obligated to pay $1800 to a collector for a game, vs downloading an image.  Either way it's not like the creator is out any cash.

I've never paid $1800 for a game. The most I've ever spent on a single game is $250, for a sealed copy of Dead of the Brain. To people like Zeta even $250 is unfathomable, but I can count on ONE HAND the total number of games I've bought in my entire life that were over $100. To be clear, in the case of vintage video games I'm not concerned the creators might be out some cash if I don't buy a legitimate copy. It's the principle of the thing. There is, however, something to be said for the "complete package" when buying a game. I like to have a real-life, paper manual I can hold and flip through, among other things.

Zeta touches on another good point, one that I wanted to mention in my earlier post but I ran out of time. There are two kinds of "collectors," really. Those who collect games they like to play, and those who collect games because of perceived value.

I've never purchased a game because I thought it was worth money. I never plan on selling any of them, so value never enters the equation for me. Sure, I do end up selling games here and there when I pick up duplicates or get something I really hate, but I'll often sell to the first person who makes an offer, and rarely do I even try to ascertain "current market value" before doing so.

The only people interested in price guides are the latter category I mentioned above. People in the first category figure out what a game is worth to them, and then wait until something shows up under that ceiling. It's taken me 21 years to get to where I am with my collection, but I've never overpaid for anything, and like I mentioned above only 5 or so games ever ran me more than $100.