Game Sack

[Mathius]

Here is an excellent (and extremely long) read of the history of the Dreamcast. This is just one part of an entire series of write-ups detailing the history of SEGA.

http://www.eidolons-inn.net/tiki-index.php?page=SegaBase+Dreamcast&bl=y

[spenoza]

You know, a lot of folks like to speculate that piracy damaged the DC's market presence, but the DC was market viable for such a short time, and on the decline so quickly, that I don't think the poor-quality and over-complicated pirate copies available at the time could really have damaged the system's market presence in any real way. By the time DC ISOs were widespread and didn't require a separate bootloader disc, the DC's future was no longer a question but a certainty. I haven't seen any data on piracy and the Dreamcast, only off-the-cuff speculation, and I don't put any stock in the speculation.

I would go so far as to suggest that the Dreamcast's failure had everything to do with Japan and very little to do with the US, much more a mirror of the Sega Genesis/Mega Drive days than the Saturn. Despite the failure of the Saturn in the US, the Saturn made Sega a lot of money in the home country. Unfortunately, Sega of Japan spent money propping up Sega USA. They also hung on too long on arcade titles alone before releasing the Dreamcast. By the time the Dreamcast was released Sega had been in debt for some time.

In truth, I don't fully understand why the Dreamcast did so badly on release in Japan. There were only a couple titles, true. And yes, the Playstation won Sony a great deal of loyalty, but the Saturn was well-loved by the Japanese as well despite Sega's trouble selling them on the Mega Drive. The fact that the Playstation continued to be supported as the Saturn disappeared from view hurt Sega, I suppose. But considering how affordable and well-designed the Dreamcast was, I still have trouble understanding why the public took so little interest, especially given how well many Naomi-based games were doing in arcades. Some have speculated that DVD player penetration was so low in Japan that everyone was waiting for the PS2 instead of buying either a DVD player or a new video game system. That argument is the best I've heard.

In the US the Dreamcast was kicking ass, despite no EA, and by the time the PS2 came out there were affordable DVD players that didn't suffer from many of the playback errors the PS2 did. Somehow, Sega USA was unable to save Sega Japan, despite finally getting everything right. Many of the best games were translated and brought over and US and European devs were well-represented. As far as I'm concerned, Sega USA did the Dreamcast release as well as the Mega Drive release, and it frustrates me that there was no way to capitalize on that momentum due to Sega of Japan's troubles.

Mathius, I find the Eidolon's Inn articles to be interesting, but lacking in references and fact-checking. The Saturn article is distinctly opinionated in places and hard to take seriously, despite containing some rather valuable insights. I'll need to read the Dreamcast one more fully, but I would be wary accepting it as a reliable source.

And now that I'm on page 3, they've already bungled a huge amount of important technical data. I can only assume the corporate politics stuff is within the realm of being correct, but the technical information they throw around in that piece is way off base in a number of important places.

[roflmao]

I still have Seaman but never got that far.  The little bugger pissed me off and I let him die. 

For some reason I must have some aversion to Sega systems regularly connected to my TVs.  For the past year or so, the only Sega system connected to one of my TVs for any real length of time has been the Genesis.  The Saturn, Dreamcast and Master System have all had brief periods, but they always end up boxed up in my office again.  This discussion has really tempted me to get the Dreamcast back out. Now I really want to start up Seaman again. I bet my 4-yr old would get a kick out of him.  And I'd love to play Skies of Arcadia again. And Crazy Taxi.  And Soul Calibur.  And Shenmue.  Aw dang....

[Colossus1574]

This discussion has really tempted me to get the Dreamcast back out. Now I really want to start up Seaman again. I bet my 4-yr old would get a kick out of him.  And I'd love to play Skies of Arcadia again. And Crazy Taxi.  And Soul Calibur.  And Shenmue.  Aw dang....

That's what these great threads are for aren't they? Bringing back fun memories and good times!
Dust it off buddy, dust it off 

But on a serious note, Dreamcast deserved a much much longer life, from a company responsible for so many historical games they deserved better 

[SamIAm]

I think the Dreamcast and the PCE have a lot in common when you focus on the systems themselves.

Both are very sensibly designed for their times, even if they were left underpowered when competition came around in later years. Both took processing that their predecessors seemed to be struggling to just barely pulling off - action-heavy scrolling 2D and textured/shaded 3D - and made them happen with ease. Both had totally decent software libraries, but didn't quite get that killer app that everyone had to play.

The biggest difference would have to be the marketing - Sega did about as well as could be expected by that time, but NEC America's approach was so bad, it arguably kept the PCE from really even getting a foothold in the States.

[Mathius]

Mathius, I find the Eidolon's Inn articles to be interesting, but lacking in references and fact-checking. The Saturn article is distinctly opinionated in places and hard to take seriously, despite containing some rather valuable insights. I'll need to read the Dreamcast one more fully, but I would be wary accepting it as a reliable source.

And now that I'm on page 3, they've already bungled a huge amount of important technical data. I can only assume the corporate politics stuff is within the realm of being correct, but the technical information they throw around in that piece is way off base in a number of important places.

What technical info did they screw up? I'm just wondering.

[DragonmasterDan]

You know, a lot of folks like to speculate that piracy damaged the DC's market presence, but the DC was market viable for such a short time, and on the decline so quickly, that I don't think the poor-quality and over-complicated pirate copies available at the time could really have damaged the system's market presence in any real way. By the time DC ISOs were widespread and didn't require a separate bootloader disc, the DC's future was no longer a question but a certainty. I haven't seen any data on piracy and the Dreamcast, only off-the-cuff speculation, and I don't put any stock in the speculation.

I started working for a video game mag in May of 2000, I can tell you within a few weeks of that Utopia boot disc hitting the internet, just in my talking to third party publishers (discussing ads, promotional copies of their games and other matters) almost every third party company I spoke to who was or had interest in publishing for Dreamcast mentioned that their interest in continuing to do so had waned substantially after discovering how easily pirate copies could be obtained of Dreamcast games.

While it didn't have an immediate effect, it made product managers think twice about investing into Dreamcast development, or licensing Japanese Dreamcast titles for the future. Within 6 months of that disc coming out the hardware was discontinued, the two aren't directly related but even if the Dreamcast had sold what Sega wanted to keep it going (I think their goal was 7 million units by January 2001) the piracy without modifying your system issue would have wreaked havoc on the system in the future causing it to only last another year on the mass market if that.

Added in edit:

In the US the Dreamcast was kicking ass, despite no EA, and by the time the PS2 came out there were affordable DVD players that didn't suffer from many of the playback errors the PS2 did. Somehow, Sega USA was unable to save Sega Japan, despite finally getting everything right. Many of the best games were translated and brought over and US and European devs were well-represented. As far as I'm concerned, Sega USA did the Dreamcast release as well as the Mega Drive release, and it frustrates me that there was no way to capitalize on that momentum due to Sega of Japan's troubles.

It wasn't selling that well in the US. This is a bit of an exaggeration. They had only sold just over 5 million Dreamcasts globally by January of 2001 when they began plans to discontinue manufacturing hardware, this was despite having manufactured twice as many systems as they had actually sold to the public. The Dreamcast wasn't a total failure in the US, but it wasn't like it was a monster hit that was only being held back in Japan. Sega had to push through numerous price drops while selling the system at a loss to even get to the five million sold mark. Even the 199.99 launch price was set at a loss, simply put it wasn't just Sega of Japan that was having issues with it. Sega of America was losing money as well, even if they were moving more units than in Japan.

[jeffhlewis]

I would go so far as to suggest that the Dreamcast's failure had everything to do with Japan and very little to do with the US, much more a mirror of the Sega Genesis/Mega Drive days than the Saturn. Despite the failure of the Saturn in the US, the Saturn made Sega a lot of money in the home country. Unfortunately, Sega of Japan spent money propping up Sega USA. They also hung on too long on arcade titles alone before releasing the Dreamcast. By the time the Dreamcast was released Sega had been in debt for some time.

I had a day-one Dreamcast reserved and purchased on 9/9/99; I still have never been as happy with a day one console as I was with the DC - Sonic Adventure and Soul Calibur in the launch lineup was just incredible. Soul Calibur graphically still holds up today amazingly. The game is just gorgeous.

I took Japanese in High School, and senior year (back in late '99 early 2000) my teacher took our wishlists back home to Japan for Christmas and brought us back goodies - for me it was a copy of Vampire Savior for the Saturn and a couple issues of Famitsu, one of which contained reviews of the DC launch titles over there. The titles were pretty universally given mediocre reviews (Sonic adventure got a decent review, but VF3 and others got panned fairly badly). Admittedly the JP launch lineup was really weak compared to the US launch, but I lost faith in Famitsu after watching them give perfect reviews to the usual batch of overrated Square / Enix / Sony dreck that came out over there.

I never really remember the exact point at which the DC started to die out in the US - the last couple "new" games I bought were sophomore year in college (fast forward now to about 2002). By the time 2002 was coming to a close I started seeing stock getting cleared out - almost everything was available for $10-20 sealed (a lot of which I wish I would have picked up at the time!). I remember getting a sealed Shenmue and SF3: Third Strike for $5 each at EB Games. Basically once the PS2 hit the streets the gig was up.

As a lifelong Sega apologist and fan, I have to say that all things considered the DC was my favorite console of all time. It just did so many things right, was designed well, and to me was the last true enthusiast console. I don't think we'll see anything like it ever again.

[spenoza]

Mathius, I find the Eidolon's Inn articles to be interesting, but lacking in references and fact-checking. The Saturn article is distinctly opinionated in places and hard to take seriously, despite containing some rather valuable insights. I'll need to read the Dreamcast one more fully, but I would be wary accepting it as a reliable source.

And now that I'm on page 3, they've already bungled a huge amount of important technical data. I can only assume the corporate politics stuff is within the realm of being correct, but the technical information they throw around in that piece is way off base in a number of important places.

What technical info did they screw up? I'm just wondering.

Well, at one point they claim that both the Dural and Katana prototypes were based on 128-bit CPUs, which is not correct. The PowerVR GPU could be called 128-bit, but there was no 128-bit anything in the Dural proto. Both systems had 32-bit CPUs. They also claim on page 1 that Yamaha provided 64-bit 3D sound. As far as I know, the Dreamcast used 16-bit audio, just like almost everybody else STILL does.

Further, the hyperbole is annoying. Allow me to quote... "literally eye-popping graphics"  I know what literally means. It is synonymous with actually. And yet, I don't know anyone who's eyes were popped by the Dreamcast's graphics.

There's some good info in there, but you have to tease it out from the bad writing, hyperbole, and blatant speculation.

[SamIAm]

He certainly spends a lot of time talking about "crap programmers" doesn't he?

The stuff on Sonic Xtreme is 90% old rumors that interviews have since been dispelled.

I believe the Saturn can do texturing and lightshading in hardware.

Basically the only programmers who swore that the Saturn was a beautiful box of wonder that nobody was properly tapping were people working at or closely with Sega. Others, including the programmer of Saturn Quake (perhaps the single most polygon-heavy Saturn game) said that its architecture is stupid for 3D games, and that the Playstation is way faster at 3D drawing anyway.

He's also got to be taking liberties and making assumptions when he writes about the goings-on between the Sega executives. The only way he could know some of that stuff is if he was there himself.

Sega-16's interview with Tom Kalinski is a much better choice to understand Sega history.

[spenoza]

I started working for a video game mag in May of 2000, I can tell you within a few weeks of that Utopia boot disc hitting the internet, just in my talking to third party publishers (discussing ads, promotional copies of their games and other matters) almost every third party company I spoke to who was or had interest in publishing for Dreamcast mentioned that their interest in continuing to do so had waned substantially after discovering how easily pirate copies could be obtained of Dreamcast games.

While it didn't have an immediate effect, it made product managers think twice about investing into Dreamcast development, or licensing Japanese Dreamcast titles for the future. Within 6 months of that disc coming out the hardware was discontinued, the two aren't directly related but even if the Dreamcast had sold what Sega wanted to keep it going (I think their goal was 7 million units by January 2001) the piracy without modifying your system issue would have wreaked havoc on the system in the future causing it to only last another year on the mass market if that.

Well, a later hardware revision killed the ability to play burns, so that problem got solved. Any new systems entering the market would share this. And I can't help but wonder if what publishers said was something of an excuse. The PS2 was looming and devs were throwing their efforts behind that. It didn't help that the PS2 was a real pain to develop for if you wanted to actually tap the power of the PS2.

It wasn't selling that well in the US. This is a bit of an exaggeration. They had only sold just over 5 million Dreamcasts globally by January of 2001 when they began plans to discontinue manufacturing hardware, this was despite having manufactured twice as many systems as they had actually sold to the public. The Dreamcast wasn't a total failure in the US, but it wasn't like it was a monster hit that was only being held back in Japan. Sega had to push through numerous price drops while selling the system at a loss to even get to the five million sold mark. Even the 199.99 launch price was set at a loss, simply put it wasn't just Sega of Japan that was having issues with it. Sega of America was losing money as well, even if they were moving more units than in Japan.

Yes, Sega of Japan was indeed losing money. They built little profit into the hardware. I think over the lifespan of the system, 5 million consoles were sold in the US. That's not chump change. Sega didn't lower the price on the Dreamcast until right before the PS2 was due, so they hung onto the $199 price point as long as they could. The only reason the Dreamcast wasn't a stronger success at launch was persistent manufacturing problems. In the US, software titles were moving pretty briskly as well.

I stand by that statement. Dreamcast sales were excellent in the US until the PS2 came out, and Dreamcast sales held up surprisingly well even after the PS2 was out until all the software devs jumped ship and Sega discontinued the hardware. If Sega US was in debt, it was at least partially inherited from Japan, and not for a lack of hardware and software sales.

[DragonmasterDan]

Yes, Sega of Japan was indeed losing money. They built little profit into the hardware. I think over the lifespan of the system, 5 million consoles were sold in the US.

By the time they discontinued the system only a little over 5 million were sold globally. It wasn't 5 million sold in the US by that point.

[DragonmasterDan]

Well, a later hardware revision killed the ability to play burns, so that problem got solved. Any new systems entering the market would share this. And I can't help but wonder if what publishers said was something of an excuse. The PS2 was looming and devs were throwing their efforts behind that. It didn't help that the PS2 was a real pain to develop for if you wanted to actually tap the power of the PS2.

Oh also I wanted to point this out.

It didn't get solved because 90% of the units produced and in circulation could play burned games. It definitely wasn't an excuse, there were lots of product managers who feared for their jobs because of the possibility that a game they were in charge of would sell significantly less than projections due to people being easily able to spend 2.00 on CDRs and bootleg their game thus having little incentive to purchase it. When decisions were made regarding whether or not to port products to Dreamcast, this was a serious worry from publishers I talked to. The fact that Dreamcast piracy required no mod chip, no swap trick requiring a spring or a string or tape and simply required putting one disc in, waiting then putting in the copy, and could be done with an inexpensive PC and a CD burner made it a serious risk for investing in further publishing and development in.

[emu002]

Another great episode guys - i really enjoy your show

I can't decide if the Dreamcast or Neo Geo is my favourite system

[spenoza]

Yes, Sega of Japan was indeed losing money. They built little profit into the hardware. I think over the lifespan of the system, 5 million consoles were sold in the US.

By the time they discontinued the system only a little over 5 million were sold globally. It wasn't 5 million sold in the US by that point.

If you know where I can see this more detailed sales data, please share. I've been unable to find more detailed breakdowns.