Author Topic: Prospect of Making Some OMG RAREZ! Game Boots  (Read 5707 times)

T2KFreeker

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Re: Prospect of Making Some OMG RAREZ! Game Boots
« Reply #255 on: August 03, 2012, 01:42:24 PM »
because pressed discs are more reliable

This.
Exactly what I am saying. Less wear and tear on the lasers too.
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SignOfZeta

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Re: Prospect of Making Some OMG RAREZ! Game Boots
« Reply #256 on: August 03, 2012, 02:04:21 PM »
because pressed discs are more reliable



This.
Exactly what I am saying. Less wear and tear on the lasers too.

Prove it. If not practically, at least theoretically.

DarkKobold

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Re: Prospect of Making Some OMG RAREZ! Game Boots
« Reply #257 on: August 03, 2012, 02:06:33 PM »

Exactly what I am saying. Less wear and tear on the lasers too.

Is there any evidence or reasoning for this? I've heard this a ton on forums before - however, I'd love to see someone actually test this. Otherwise, it seems like an old wives tale.

I mean, the laser has a fixed amount of current running through it, regardless of how the CD is made. The order of files on the disc might matter, but I don't see how that is possible to actually check, additionally, what guarantee is there?

Also, while pressed CDs may be more reliable, you can always burn a 2nd, 3rd, or 18th copy of a game, if you keep it on your HD.
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Bernie

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Re: Prospect of Making Some OMG RAREZ! Game Boots
« Reply #258 on: August 03, 2012, 02:16:49 PM »
A lot of Duos wont read a cdr.

T2KFreeker

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Re: Prospect of Making Some OMG RAREZ! Game Boots
« Reply #259 on: August 03, 2012, 02:25:03 PM »
Only thing I can even come close to bringing up on this is the 3DO. Before anyone starts bitching about what a crap system it is, fine, let's just say for the sake of argument that the games suck. I do know that repeated exposure to burnt CD's starts to wear the Laser out faster to the point that before the laser completely goes out the system won't even read CD-r media at all. Not sure what it means, but sounds like a higher rate of wear and tear. Is it a wives tale? Possibly. I do know that my Turbografx CD system has a way easier time reading pressed CD's over burnt ones, that much is obvious.
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DarkKobold

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Re: Prospect of Making Some OMG RAREZ! Game Boots
« Reply #260 on: August 03, 2012, 03:12:11 PM »
Only thing I can even come close to bringing up on this is the 3DO. Before anyone starts bitching about what a crap system it is, fine, let's just say for the sake of argument that the games suck. I do know that repeated exposure to burnt CD's starts to wear the Laser out faster to the point that before the laser completely goes out the system won't even read CD-r media at all. Not sure what it means, but sounds like a higher rate of wear and tear. Is it a wives tale? Possibly. I do know that my Turbografx CD system has a way easier time reading pressed CD's over burnt ones, that much is obvious.



I found an interesting thread at Atari Age, same issue addressed.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/180416-playing-burned-games-on-classic-consoles/

The general consensus seems to be:

Lasers don't wear down due to CDR use, they use the same constant power for everything. Drive shafts, motors, gears, etc, may wear down, due to having to re-read poorly burned portions of the disc, or due to a disorganization of data.






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SignOfZeta

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Re: Prospect of Making Some OMG RAREZ! Game Boots
« Reply #261 on: August 03, 2012, 03:14:22 PM »
People say the same thing about the PCE that you are saying about the 3DO. I don't doubt that there is sometimes some difficulty in a pre-CDR machine reading CDRs, I just questioned the relationship between that and the actual physical destruction of the drive. It seems far more likely to me that not being able to read CDRs is an indicator of a system that is about to take its final shit sooner rather than later anyway, and people are wrongly blaming the CDRs.

This is apart from the way black Duos jam with CDRs. This is very real, although very easy to fix also. It also seems to only affect black Duos...maybe the SuperCDROM2 as well?

For what it's worth, obviously pressed CDs themselves are more reliable than CDRs and for that reason I would be interested in some for cheap. I have zero interest in fake manuals of games that were never released and therefore never had real manuals, fake obi, fake reply cards, etc. That shit is just pointless.

ProfessorProfessorson

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Re: Prospect of Making Some OMG RAREZ! Game Boots
« Reply #262 on: August 03, 2012, 03:15:29 PM »
The lasers lens has to work harder to focus correctly on a cd-r, especially a short strategy disc. The lens assembly is still moving parts where the "eye" as it were, moves up and down to focus the beam. It takes it more effort to get into focus to read data from something that doesn't reflect that well, and short strategy doesn't most of the time. Short strategy media is newer and cheaper. Even normal older pc cd-rom drives that predate short strategy somewhat have issues reading the stuff. Obviously something that is forced to work harder to read something not within its original spec is not going to last as long.

TheOldMan

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Re: Prospect of Making Some OMG RAREZ! Game Boots
« Reply #263 on: August 03, 2012, 03:18:52 PM »
Quote
Is there any evidence or reasoning for this? I've heard this a ton on forums before - however, I'd love to see someone actually test this. Otherwise, it seems like an old wives tale.

I mean, the laser has a fixed amount of current running through it, regardless of how the CD is made.

It's been discussed to death already. Here's the reasoning:
Pressed CD's are made with a metal layer, which is highly reflective.
CD-R's are made with a dye layer, which is less reflective.
Older CD drives expect high reflectivity discs; they have problems detecting the signal from CD-R's.
The signal loss due to the low reflectivity means a higher read failure rate. This, in turn, means
the cd player has to do more re-tries to get a valid read. Thus, more wear and tear on the drive.

This is the same exact reason older cd players will not read CD-R discs. It's a known problem, tested to death by manufacturers when CD-R's first became available.

(You want the technical details? The zero-crossing detector amp in the lens assembly doesn't receive enough light from the less reflective cd-r's to reliably detect the pit transitions - not enough voltage from the detector to saturate the amp base. No, the amp isn't adjustable, either, though folks have tried.)

You wanna use CD-R's in your system, be my guest. Make note the BlueBMW and thesteve have replacement lasers, though, cause you'll need one. Soon.

KingDrool

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Re: Prospect of Making Some OMG RAREZ! Game Boots
« Reply #264 on: August 03, 2012, 03:24:42 PM »
My Duo was brand new, out of the box, purchased from TZD about twelve years ago. I put in a couple CDRs and it immediately took a shit on me.

Proof? Maybe not. But I will never use a CDR in a Duo again.
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Mathius

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Re: Prospect of Making Some OMG RAREZ! Game Boots
« Reply #265 on: August 03, 2012, 03:50:59 PM »
What PP and theOldman said are what I have thought to be true. I would grudgingly test this theory on my US Turbo CD that is a CD-R virgin, but I am not going to pay to have its lens replaced. Someone would have to donate the repair $$.
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Keith Courage

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Re: Prospect of Making Some OMG RAREZ! Game Boots
« Reply #266 on: August 03, 2012, 04:38:23 PM »
A new lens is only $25.00

Mathius

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Re: Prospect of Making Some OMG RAREZ! Game Boots
« Reply #267 on: August 03, 2012, 04:50:58 PM »
A new lens is only $25.00

That doesn't include labor. :)
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thesteve

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Re: Prospect of Making Some OMG RAREZ! Game Boots
« Reply #268 on: August 03, 2012, 05:03:28 PM »
Quote
Is there any evidence or reasoning for this? I've heard this a ton on forums before - however, I'd love to see someone actually test this. Otherwise, it seems like an old wives tale.

I mean, the laser has a fixed amount of current running through it, regardless of how the CD is made.

It's been discussed to death already. Here's the reasoning:
Pressed CD's are made with a metal layer, which is highly reflective.
CD-R's are made with a dye layer, which is less reflective.
Older CD drives expect high reflectivity discs; they have problems detecting the signal from CD-R's.
The signal loss due to the low reflectivity means a higher read failure rate. This, in turn, means
the cd player has to do more re-tries to get a valid read. Thus, more wear and tear on the drive.

This is the same exact reason older cd players will not read CD-R discs. It's a known problem, tested to death by manufacturers when CD-R's first became available.

(You want the technical details? The zero-crossing detector amp in the lens assembly doesn't receive enough light from the less reflective cd-r's to reliably detect the pit transitions - not enough voltage from the detector to saturate the amp base. No, the amp isn't adjustable, either, though folks have tried.)

You wanna use CD-R's in your system, be my guest. Make note the BlueBMW and thesteve have replacement lasers, though, cause you'll need one. Soon.


this is mostly correct.
the problem is less brightness and more contrast, as the burnt cd still reflects in the "pits" just not as much.
it does cause a 0-cross problem making the disk more difficult to read.
reduced laser power seems to help quite a bit.
the duo laser jam issue is related to the hard gearing and applies to the -r as well

SignOfZeta

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Re: Prospect of Making Some OMG RAREZ! Game Boots
« Reply #269 on: August 03, 2012, 06:49:48 PM »
Quote
Is there any evidence or reasoning for this? I've heard this a ton on forums before - however, I'd love to see someone actually test this. Otherwise, it seems like an old wives tale.

I mean, the laser has a fixed amount of current running through it, regardless of how the CD is made.

It's been discussed to death already. Here's the reasoning:
Pressed CD's are made with a metal layer, which is highly reflective.
CD-R's are made with a dye layer, which is less reflective.
Older CD drives expect high reflectivity discs; they have problems detecting the signal from CD-R's.
The signal loss due to the low reflectivity means a higher read failure rate. This, in turn, means
the cd player has to do more re-tries to get a valid read. Thus, more wear and tear on the drive.

This is the same exact reason older cd players will not read CD-R discs. It's a known problem, tested to death by manufacturers when CD-R's first became available.

(You want the technical details? The zero-crossing detector amp in the lens assembly doesn't receive enough light from the less reflective cd-r's to reliably detect the pit transitions - not enough voltage from the detector to saturate the amp base. No, the amp isn't adjustable, either, though folks have tried.)

You wanna use CD-R's in your system, be my guest. Make note the BlueBMW and thesteve have replacement lasers, though, cause you'll need one. Soon.


I already understand all of this but...I'm just not buying it. What I've noticed with PCEs is that if the system loses track of the CDDA it will not come back until it loads again and sends you to the next CDDA track. Because of this you always know when a CD isn't reading right. When it loses track of data it will retry things again, maybe it loads slower, whatever, eventually it usually reads, so you don't always know when data loading isn't working right unless you are very familiar with the game and you know exactly how long everything is supposed to take. You always know when the CDDA drops out though.

Therefore, correct me if I'm wrong, if the game isn't dropping out on CDDA tracks it probably isn't having a very hard time reading the disc, no?

My Duo was brand new, out of the box, purchased from TZD about twelve years ago. I put in a couple CDRs and it immediately took a shit on me.

Proof? Maybe not. But I will never use a CDR in a Duo again.

Certainly not proof. That system had been sitting unused in a box for eight years. It could have partially seized up, it could have been defective from the factory. My first Duo actually was defective from the factory and had to be exchanged a month after I bought it.

I'm not primarily a CD-R user, but I have logged probably 100 hours between my Duo R and my IFU system with no lasers dying. My original US Duo (technically my second one since, as I mentioned, I had to return the first one) played probably 40-60 hours worth of CDRs before I sold it to someone here. This Duo had probably 2000 hours on it since I owned it for 15 years or so before it left my possesion and it worked perfectly when I sold it.

...and do you want to know something even crazier? When I had both a US Duo and a Duo R I noticed that the drive would skip easier in the Duo R so I SWITCHED DRIVES a year or so before I sold it. This means that the laser in my Duo R is the same one I purchased new from Electronics Boutique in late 1992. The same one I beat all those games on over and over again for 15 years before moving it to the Duo R where I then beat many more games, including stuff like Ys IV translated...on a CD-R. All the CDRs I played on the US Duo and the Duo R used the same laser!

So if you want to argue that CDRs kill lasers based on the laser doing more active minute focusing (this is the only wear and tear we are actually talking about, right?) then, fine, sure, but I can tell you that the damage certainly doesn't happen very quickly. At all.

In fact, I'm going to go play something on CDR right now just for the hell of it. I'll let you know when the laser dies.