Anyone care to comment in-depth on the PC-FX hardware design?

[SamIAm]

I was going to post this as part of another thread, but I thought I'd make a new topic here instead and give this board some action.

I'm basically just a layman when it comes to computer hardware, but I would be very interested in reading what some of you with real knowledge and ability think of the PC-FX in terms of how its hardware was designed, perhaps in comparison with the likes of the PSX, Saturn, 3DO etc. Most of us know about the lack of 3D hardware, the decent JPEG decoder, the old sound technology, and whatever else we might glean from a spec sheet. Are there any other efficiencies or inefficiencies that the system has which you think are important to understanding what it is capable of?

There have been some very good comparisons of the TG-16 and the Genesis that go into detail and are very enlightening, and if people are starting to hack around with PC-FX stuff thanks to Mednafen, maybe we all can start learning some new things about the system. Any takers?

[Arkhan]

There is nothing wrong with the PC-FX and I think the PSG choice was the right choice.

The real problem was the lack of the 3D hardware which meant it couldn't keep up since the FMV style games came and went and people wanted something else.

You can see it in any game really, the sprites are amazing.  Look at Last Imperial Prince!

The PC-FX hardware itself is a dream to work with compared to the friggin Saturn anyways.

[Mathius]

I was always curious about how the PC-FX's soundchip sounded compared to systems like the Saturn.

[nat]

The PC-FX really seems like the ultimate 2D system from a technical standpoint. It's a shame more games weren't made to utilize the hardware.

[Arkhan]

I was always curious about how the PC-FX's soundchip sounded compared to systems like the Saturn.

How do you think the PCE soundchip compares to the Saturn?

It's basically the same thing.  Glorious, warm, fuzzy chiptunes.

The PC-FX, when looked at on paper, should have destroyed the Saturn.   PC-FX can easily do games the Saturn had that were huge successes.  All those arcade shooters, and games like Elevator Action returns would've been cake.   

the lack of 3D f*cked it over though.

[SamIAm]

Does it really? I'd like to know. It seems to me like on paper, the PC-FX should have at least come out a lot cheaper than the Saturn.  :-"

Granted, the PC-FX could have done a lot of games that the Saturn did, it's true. But which would you choose if you were an otherwise completely unbiased developer?

Saturn has two RISC CPUs at 28.6MHz each, totaling 50 MIPS. It's got a background GPU that can draw 5 planes, two of which can be simultaneous mode-7 planes. I've heard its sprite GPU matches the PSX's fill-rate all by itself if it's not drawing polygons. And its sound processor has 32 voices, is MIDI compatible, and can do everything at 44.1KHz. Not to mention the sound and CD-ROM control processors and the other junk in there.

It looks like the PC-FX has only a single CPU at 21.5MHz and just 15 MIPS. As for the GPU, I'd be curious to know how much scaling and how many sprites the GPU can really handle. As for the sound, aside from redbook CD audio, it seems as though the PC-FX can only play a short, looped, single PCM track or use a synthesizer that sounds like it came straight from the PC Engine.

Could the PC-FX's graphics processor do this? Note 5 background layers and a sprite layer that all scale simultaneously.
Here's another example. I think the "layers" are mostly sprites here:

Could it's internal synth do anything like this? It isn't streamed from the disc at all.

[Arkhan]

The PC-FX has 6 background layers, and 2 sprite layers, on top of that sweet JPEG nonsense.

as for the sound, whoopdeedoo its not able to do 32 voice MIDI.

I'd take the PSG over the MIDI crap to be honest.  It fits games better to me. 

CPU power is all relative here, because AFAIK, the Saturn has to do way more shit to get the video going.  It has 2 video chips, and 2 cpu's.  So yeah it has more power, but has to consume much of it to deal with the video chips.

The PC-FX does it all with less chips and is designed better.  If only the 3D gpu attachment actually came out. The lack of 3D is what ultimately shafted the thing

[nat]

Indeed. I think there are parts in Zeroigar where there are up to 9 simultaneous background layers. Obviously only 6 of these are "real" and the rest would have to be sprites, but it seems like the PC-FX could've handled a game like Astal with its eyes closed.

In fact, there are parts in Last Imperial Prince, later in the game, which I would consider comparable to that Astal clip. Granted the art style is significantly different, but from a technical standpoint the visuals are somewhat similar.

[Arkhan]

Indeed. I think there are parts in Zeroigar where there are up to 9 simultaneous background layers. Obviously only 6 of these are "real" and the rest would have to be sprites, but it seems like the PC-FX could've handled a game like Astal with its eyes closed.

In fact, there are parts in Last Imperial Prince, later in the game, which I would consider comparable to that Astal clip. Granted the art style is significantly different, but from a technical standpoint the visuals are somewhat similar.

Yes, Last Imperial Prince is a really good example of how badass the PC-FX really is.

As far as 2D goes, the thing is a power house.  It could run two PCE shooters simultaneously! \o/  YEAH.

And for scaling, just look at Boundary Gate.  It can clearly do beautiful first person RPGs, very well.

[SamIAm]

I'm honestly not trying to be anti-PCFX, but I've cleared Zeroigar and almost cleared Last Imperial Prince, and I never counted more than 4 layers, and there was never any heavy scaling/rotation. I think it was the cloud stage in Zeroigar and the deep forest area in LIP that had this. Did I miss something?

EDIT: Definitely, the PC-FX had the potential to be a great 2D action gaming console. I'm not disputing that, and I'm not trying to brag up the Saturn as superior. Instead, I just want to know what the system is good and not so good at, and comparing it to other systems makes it easy to understand.

[TheClash603]

I love the Saturn because it is the last system I consider "classic."  Reading this thread, it's a damn shame the PC-FX never was utilized to its strengths, because I would've loved the thing.  As it is now, I can't get one, because all of the games are text-heavy.

Indeed. I think there are parts in Zeroigar where there are up to 9 simultaneous background layers. Obviously only 6 of these are "real" and the rest would have to be sprites, but it seems like the PC-FX could've handled a game like Astal with its eyes closed.

In fact, there are parts in Last Imperial Prince, later in the game, which I would consider comparable to that Astal clip. Granted the art style is significantly different, but from a technical standpoint the visuals are somewhat similar.

As far as 2D goes, the thing is a power house.  It could run two PCE shooters simultaneously! \o/  YEAH.

It would be amazing if someone ported a PC-E greatest hits of shooters on to the PC-FX.  But here's the catch...  they are played in split screen and there is 2-player co-op/versus only.  The games switch every 15-60 seconds, a la Wario Ware.  Each time one of you gets hit you lose a life.  The goal is to play as long as you can without losing your life stock.  Obvious piracy aside (shhh, I won't tell if you won't), this would be the game of the millennium.

[Arkhan]

This really says it all.

PC-FX.

f
t
w

[SamIAm]

That's 5 layers, including two that are locked together so that the sprites can over/underlap both layers. The clouds are an old-school horizontal line split. Pretty good. Nice effect in the background at the end, too.

How about this? 3 layers, full-screen scaling, and a large multi-jointed boss made of rotating sprites.

EDIT: Or this. 1 Layer, full-screen scaling, 704x448 resolution.

[Arkhan]

I think that boss in Cotton looks like crap.   It looks like a toy, or a puppet.

The hand drawn and animated bosses in Zenki look far better.   Kind of like how Boundary Gate looked dumb on the PS1 with all its polygon crap

You posted the same link twice btw.

[SamIAm]

Fixed. Thanks.

And I think the Cotton 2 boss looks cool.

Anyway, subjective viewpoints on pretty graphics aside, is there anything to say about the amount of scaling/rotation the PC-FX can handle? Zeroigar's second boss is a decent start. I wonder if that's a sprite or a background layer?