Double Dragon II

[ParanoiaDragon]

First, most of our games are totally original, & we will be charging for them.

2nd, it'd be great to have a port of the 1st Double Dragon on the Turbo, are you saying it would suck if we did that?  

3rd, there wouldn't be a cease & desist order, since we wouldn't be charging even a single penny for the game.  

And 4th, we do indeed have a Double Dragon styled brawler of our own, totally original, that we will be selling.  It's more of a cross between the sprite size & music of the Streets of Rage games, & the level structure of Final Fight.  

Me, I want to see remakes of old games on the Turbo, I love the Turbo, & I have no problem making music & voice acting for free, it's fun, & it's for the love of the Turbo/PCE.  So, really, what's the point of NOT making a remake of an old game?  That's what wouldn't make sense!  Come to think of it, I'm not even sure if Tradewest or Technos are even still around(they probably are, I mean, I recently found out that Telenet is a part of Namco ).  Even so, they can't do a single damn thing if we aren't charging for the game.  Heck, even Hudson Soft has no interest in their old PCE games(not that we're going to go ahead & just remake old games of their's & sell them).  Still, we'll probably end up releasing Neutopia 3 for free.  I think we're still trying to get their attention to see if we can work out a deal on that.  If not, we might even just rename it & a few other things, & sell it, with people still knowing it's Neutopia 3, their just wouldn't be anything that Hudson could say about it if we did that.

edit-BTW, I would think that a cease & desist order would be more of a Konami thing, not a Technos or Tradewest thing....not that they wouldn't do it if we were breaking the law ofcoarse, just trying to make a point.

edit again-Also we wouldn't be copying any old games, we still have to build them from the ground up, I mean, it's not like you can just rip sprites n tiles from an arcade game & just throw it on the Turbo.  Everything has to be made from scratch.

[akamichi]

Personally I want to see those old games on the PCE.  I wanted them back when PCE was in its prime and I still feel that way now.

I've been kicking around some ideas about making a PCE game.  Never really did anything yet, but someday I hope.  It'd be easier to make a port than to make an original game anyway.  All the artwork/music/etc is already there.

At this point, just seeing new games on the PCE regardless of originality makes me happy.

[cybersalad]

You don't understand how copyright and trademark law works.  You don't need to charge anything to be in violation of it.

Some of the classic system remakes are kind of neat--like that dude who-remade pac man on the Atari 2600 just to prove it could be done.  Of course, the guy had 20 extra years over Todd Frye's 5 weeks.

[GUTS]

Yeah I dont see the point either of investing time in ports when that time could be used for something new.

Not trying to be an ass, but you guys should get something out the door before talking about all these other projects.

[ParanoiaDragon]

Actually we do indeed understand, as one of us is all to well versed in the law, mainly since he got sued for making a Star Wars game that he didn't even charge for.  Which was about 10 or so years ago, because of that, & his lawyer, he is now WELL versed in the law of what can & can't be done.  There are some things that can't be exactly like an original game made by someone, & other things you can get away with, without breaking the law.  We wouldn't be doing this blindly   And so far, we don't have any remakes, we have nothing but fresh ideas that are being worked on.  But we will make ports as well, frankly, there's nothing anyone can do about it.  We could keep it to ourselves, without telling a single soul, & it would be just as legal as it would if we let people download it for free.  Plus, we're not the only ones that are planning on making remakes either, the first 3 Castlevania's are already being ported to the Turbo as we speak, but not by us.  We still might do them ourselves though, I don't know how this other guys work is, since I've seen none of his work yet.

Anways, I think it is YOU who does not understand the law.  I'm not saying I "personally" do, that's not my department.  But, it sounds like you're very bitter about any new Turbo games ever coming out, whether they be new or remakes.  What's your deal anyways?  "Oh, lookout, I better let Tradewest know that someone is remaking Battletoads, for free, for fun, legally!"  This is the closest I've ever come to flaming in my life.

edit-This is directed at the Cybersalad, not GUTS.  Yo Salad, if you take this as a flame, I apologize, but I'm in a pretty pissy mood right now, & you're just giving off a super negative vibe.  As for me, I don't know everything, I just make music, that's it.  I just don't see any point in voicing hatred towards remakes of old games, what the hell is there to complain about?  "We just made a total remake of Faxanadu, that blows away the original, with beautiful graphics, & wonderful music"  Why would anyone want to complain about that?

edit-btw, I'll be open enough to mention I'm pretty pissed off at my new health insurance provider, so that really doesn't help how I'm feeling right now.  I stormed out of Rite Aid, with quite a bit of boxed in rage because of all the problems we're having.  I'm REALLY starting to miss Kaiser, I can tell you that, but, are new policy is a HECK of alot cheaper......which I guess means crappier service, & loads of problems  

Anyways Salad, I apologize, I'm venting & taking it out on you, & that's no excuse.  I'm just frusterated with 2 things right now, 1-our health insurance & 2-I want to make music for old games that we remake, if we ever do indeed remake them.  Hudson, so I'm told, has no problem with us doing Neutopia 3 as long as we don't charge for it, so that's a relief.  But as for remaking old games, I really want to do it, to take a game, & use the spec's of the Turbo along with remaking the music in cd quality.  I mean, how much would it rock, if there was like a perfect version of Battletoads for Turbo, where the music is kickin' along with great graphics, not to mention making the game BEATABLE!  Or making Turbo versions of all the Bonk's that never made it to the Turbo, that'd be awesome.

Rest assured, so far, out of our plethora of projects, there isn't yet a single remake of a game(unless you count Mysterious Song), there's 1 sequal(Neutopia 3) & all the rest are totally original.

[Keranu]

We have lots of game docs planned out for original games, lots . By the time we release all of the original games we have planned, a few ported games wouldn't hurt us... well ported games wouldn't hurt anyone or anything. I myself would much rather see fresh new games than ports, but we have so many original games planned out anyways that throwing some cool updated ports in to show what the system can do would be nice to show off.

[cybersalad]

I suggest you get a new lawyer.   You can't be sued for making a similar game (like if you made a game with original graphics, sound, and similar gameplay)--but if you're going to call the game Double Dragon (Which is a trademark) and you're going to rip graphics from the original game (which are copyrighted) and release it on the net, you're asking for trouble.  Even keeping it to yourself isn't legal, but nobody is going to find out so it's no big deal.

The game concept itself is not copyrightable, but the expression of the game is--the expression includes music, graphics, and even level layouts in some cases.

But anyway, I've only been making games professionally for 10 years, and have fended off a cease and desist in my time--Don't take my word for it.

[cybersalad]

Actually, I'll slightly rephrase that--you can be sued for anything.  However, there's no grounds for a lawsuit if you just do a similar game. It's totally legal (as seen in Data East vs. Epyx and Capcom vs. Data East).  It didn't stop Capcom for trying to sue Data East--even though it was totally groundless. The legal process still cost both of them money even though Data East won.

It's when you start ripping graphics, sound, and using other peoples trademarks that you're violating the law.

Oh, and I'm not trying to be a dick--just telling you the truth.  So there's no need to flip out on me.

[ParanoiaDragon]

Nah, I know you're not being a dick.  I apologize again, it's not like me to lash out.  I've just had a bad day, & took out my aggression on a fellow Turbo fan.  When it comes to ripping things from a game, we'd be making everything from scratch, so, we wouldn't be ripping sprites, tiles, or music, we'd redo it all from the ground up.  And I didn't say we have a lawyer, it's just that one of our guys, who has been making games since he was a teenager, has gone thru the whole cease & desist order thing with Lucasarts or whatever, & got a lawyer & learned alot, doing alot of his own research on the subject.  Ofcoarse to me, & I'm sure to you as well, it seems ridiculous, since we're giving what I'd say a tribute to the company that originally made the game, with us not making money, & them not losing any.  I suppose we could just make remakes in secret, & release them to certain sites that apparently can't be taken down, or so I'm told.  That's about all I can think of.  But, we're making new games for now anyways, so, that's something to worry about in the future I suppose.

And I apologize once more, I feel bad for lashing out.  I know that as a musical artist, you can perform someone else's song live, & profit off of it.....now that's one that I never understood.  My brother used to do that back in the day.  He'd do a few of his own songs in a performance, & do a couple of covers, while not having to pay a dime for any of it.  Sometimes......the law really bites.  Like with remaking a game for no profit, it just doesn't seem like there'd be anything illegal about it.  I know I've seen people redo games for other systems(in rom form), I wonder if they've ever gotten sued.  The main one that comes to mind is the Sonic game for the SNES, or maybe it was Mario for the Genesis?  I know there's demo of Megaman & Ghouls n Ghosts for Lynx, there's gotta be some way to get away with it. :

[akamichi]

Wow, this kinda got offtopic. hehe.

I'd like to see Dragon Spirit and Dragon Saber redone using ACD/SCD though.

[Keranu]

Hey that would be a great idea actually since those games could use a graphic tune up. The gameplay and music in those games are excellent enough as it is!

[ParanoiaDragon]

I'd have no problem redoing the music.  I even have the soundtrack cd's for the arcade versions to help me base how I recompose them.

[Michael Helgeson]

Id like to see you guys get your games out,one at a time.Do you have a planned release,set withen the next 3 months,5 months?
I know its hard,but you guys got to have goals,set them,get them realized.
It would be better for the mass of pcengine/Turbo users if you guys got something thats fun to play out there,in a good timeline.Finish one project at a time,not work on 3 at once and never get anything done.
I know Keranu will have more time on his hands coming up,because he liberated himself from his states local teen lockup facility.
Maybe with this new found time,given he will still have to work,but at least wont have homework,maybe he can devote more of this newly aquired free time towards making sprite work happen,and maybe inspire the others in the Frozen utopia group to see how hard he is working,thus inspiring them to do the same amount,doubling efforts,thus releasing something sooner rather then later?

[Michael Helgeson]

I was thinking,Frozen Utopia could do a Arcade Card capable title or something maybe? A beat-em up like Final Fight,maybe even like Golden Axe?It would be interesting to see how it would turn out if you did.
Also, Rage of the Dragons.NeoGeo.Game is not officially supported by Technos,loose kinda on the story,but does use the Double Dragon characters.Technos didnt pursue any legal case over this title.
So I doubt Technos would be going after you for doing something along the same lines.Id like to see a arcade port/update of soem type of DoubleDragon on a system I like other then GBA.
I think it would be great.

[Michael Helgeson]

I think this topic should stay at the top of the list here,sorry to pcengine radio or whatever its called.Im more concerned with games to be then music of yesteryear.