MML and Squirrel

[touko]

What's your musical experience?  I want to make sure I don't overshoot these tutorials, or make them too simple and boring/not useful for you guys.

For me ,near to NULL lol
You can make 2 parts, first for lamer (like me), and a second for more advanced features .
For psg use, without basis, no chocolate .

Why a sinus ??, a squarre ?,a triangle ??, this not an oscilloscope !!

[Arkhan]

What about your experience with using various music softwares like FruityLoops, or other MIDI software?

Can you play a keyboard or anything, even at a very basic level?

[touko]

Lol, have i a head to play with keyboard

i know only how to manipulate samples for sfx, that's all ;-)

[spenoza]

I think we need to decide that it is rare that one person can do everything. I hope we get some folks in here who decide they want to learn the MML stuff and other folks who want to learn HuC, and then the two of them can get together and make games!

[Arkhan]

That's the other thing.  It's awfully hard to cater a music program to people who don't do music.  If you're making game music, it's assumed you at least know the basics of music.  If not, it's sort of your responsibility to go read up on it.

If you don't do music much, pretty much any music program is difficult.   Even trackers.  The only upside to a tracker is you can hear shit as you smack at it. 

[spenoza]

The only upside to a tracker is you can hear shit as you smack at it. 

That's a pretty big upside for folks who are discovering music through creating it.

[Arkhan]

The only upside to a tracker is you can hear shit as you smack at it. 

That's a pretty big upside for folks who are discovering music through creating it.

trackers are a horrible device to use for learning by doing.  They're unintuitive and non-musical. 

If you want to learn by doing, there are far better choices.  Trackers are just attached to chiptunes, so for whatever stupid reason, newcomers do this.

Chiptunes = awesome
trackers = chiptunes
trackers = awesome

and, that is not so great.

Squirrel isn't a music creating program.  It's an MML compiler.

Create the MML elsewhere and compile it with Squirrel.  lol that is where people are missing things.

[Bonknuts]

There are some aspects about trackers that are attractive and the main one is what you hear is what you get. But it's more than just as simple as that. Once you get familiar with them, it's how you massage/sculpt the sound in real time. I mean, it's more than just hearing a note or sound immediately. This usually comes in the form of typical tracker FX column. I'm not saying it's the best method (not at all), but once you get used to it - it's a rather powerful feature IMO. I think more than anything else, this is why trackers are still around today for old school systems. And trackers aren't just for musically uneducated (or self learners that follow no traditional layout or form). I've seen music created on trackers by real musicians/classically learned. But there are definitely downsides to the tracker format in general (all trackers that I've seen). The ridged note timing format can be a real pain in the ass. I have some stuff I originally did on my keyboard, only to have really alter the note timing to fit the tracker format - which sounded quite a bit different. That sucked. It didn't sound as fluid and overall disappointed me. I think triplets and some other things are pain to do as well.

 That said, what about creating a rom or ISO that runs on the PCE/emulator that you can build out an instrument sound? Tweak with in realtime. Something that follows the MML format and PSG envelope structure. Then you'd just have to jot down into your mml song file definition areas or whatever. It wouldn't be so different than an SFX editor. What you hear is what you get sort of thing.

[Arkhan]

There are some aspects about trackers that are attractive and the main one is what you hear is what you get. But it's more than just as simple as that. Once you get familiar with them, it's how you massage/sculpt the sound in real time. I mean, it's more than just hearing a note or sound immediately. This usually comes in the form of typical tracker FX column. I'm not saying it's the best method (not at all), but once you get used to it - it's a rather powerful feature IMO. I think more than anything else, this is why trackers are still around today for old school systems. And trackers aren't just for musically uneducated (or self learners that follow no traditional layout or form). I've seen music created on trackers by real musicians/classically learned. But there are definitely downsides to the tracker format in general (all trackers that I've seen). The ridged note timing format can be a real pain in the ass. I have some stuff I originally did on my keyboard, only to have really alter the note timing to fit the tracker format - which sounded quite a bit different. That sucked. It didn't sound as fluid and overall disappointed me. I think triplets and some other things are pain to do as well.

Trackers are robotic and unintuitive.  They work, they're neat, and they can do some neat effects, but they are very mechanical.   MML offers more flexibility in that regard.  It's sheet music.  You lose the per-step tweaks, and you lose the hear it immediately (unless you use Musica, or other MML parser/players) aspect... but you make up for it with flexibility, portability, and efficiency.

That's what I like most about MML.  MIDI and MML allow you to take your songs nearly anywhere.  Some of the Insanity tunes started off as Amiga mods I made when I was 12.  I just exported to MIDI and turned it to MML. 

Also took the MIDI and turned it into the redbook stuff fairly quickly.

That's what I don't like as much about trackers.  If you get really entrenched into using a tracker, you've killed your portability.  All those effects and tweaks you do aren't going to survive any quick conversion.  It would require a fine-tuned approach.

I respect what has been done with trackers in the European world.  Jeroen Tel for example...

but, I'd be really curious to see what someone like him would have done if he was given MML as his tool kit.  C64/Amiga kind of made trackers a standard thing in the European scene.  It's expected that trackers be used.  Kinda blows.   The MSX scene is split, thankfully, since it came from Japan.

That said, what about creating a rom or ISO that runs on the PCE/emulator that you can build out an instrument sound? Tweak with in realtime. Something that follows the MML format and PSG envelope structure. Then you'd just have to jot down into your mml song file definition areas or whatever. It wouldn't be so different than an SFX editor. What you hear is what you get sort of thing.

I dunno.  I mean you could just play a note and keep rebuilding/launching it.  It only takes a few seconds to build and launch a PCE. 

[spenoza]

I dunno.  I mean you could just play a note and keep rebuilding/launching it.  It only takes a few seconds to build and launch a PCE. 

Sure, you could, but why even that? It's about the effort it would take to make it simpler. I'd say there's likely an audience here for that suggestion.

[Arkhan]

Sure, you could, but why even that? It's about the effort it would take to make it simpler. I'd say there's likely an audience here for that suggestion.

an audience to do what, create an entire music program on the PCE?

Sorry, I don't think there is, at least not as far as I care to make.  I've got games to write.

MML is *not* a composition device.  It's expected that you compose this shit elsewhere first.  Making a program to hear it as you go is time consuming.  I know someone working on one for a different platform.  It's a huge undertaking.

Compose the music elsewhere.  Use a VST for approximations.  Import into Squirrel and listen/fiddle til you get the sounds you want out of your ALREADY WRITTEN song.

If you can't be bothered to do that, then you probably shouldn't be making music.  There are plenty of viable methods to COMPOSE songs.  Koichi Sugiyama (Dragon Quest) composed the music for DQ on a piano.  We, being in 2012, with fancy ass computers, are at a massive advantage over what he had to work with.  There are 32 byte VSTs that can sound like the PCE. 

When you use a tracker, you have to sample the sounds in from somewhere.  They're not just there, waiting to be used.  It's expected that you have the brains to at least grab sounds and start dicking around.  This is not much different.

This is how my tutorial video is going to go

Step 1) Open fruityloops
Step 2) Slap 6 VSTs down (AKA 6 channels for the PSG)
Step 3) Compose some kind of song.  The notes are what matters, really
Step 4) export to MIDI, feed through MML converter
Step 5) place into Squirrel sheet, compile, listen
Step 6) Fiddle with waveforms and envelopes til the song sounds nice.


Using a tracker goes something like

1) Open the tracker
2) f*ck around for awhile until you find samples you like
3) Punch in music and keep dicking around til you get it like you like
4) This shit doesn't work in a PCE game, so export to MIDI?
5) Put midi thru MML
6) Squirrel again

I am sure none of you are that disabled.

[spenoza]

an audience to do what, create an entire music program on the PCE?

No, I was thinking more the other proposal: "That said, what about creating a rom or ISO that runs on the PCE/emulator that you can build out an instrument sound? Tweak with in realtime. "

That way we can anticipate what things will sound like. Being able to check waveforms and envelopes in real time would be great, especially if it could load up an MML and let you tweak the stuff associated with each voice (save maybe the percussion line, since that tends to get messy). You'd still have to compose the structure of the song elsewhere, but you could play with different sounds for the song using the PSG capabilities of the system in real time.

[Arkhan]

MML is compiled.  You can't really wack the waveform around in real time with Squirrel.  It's set in stone once you run the .pce/iso.

You can change waves and envelopes in notepad in about 2 seconds, hit save, and rebuild/launch and listen. 

[spenoza]

OK then, how about this. Forget the MML component. Just an interactive PCE generator that lets you play with waveforms and envelopes so you can muddle with sounds in real time to figure out what you want to plug into your MLL when you compile.

[Arkhan]

I'm pretty sure that already exists http://zeograd.com/download_presentation.php?lang=en&id=176

sort of.

Though, I'm not sure how this is really more beneficial than just trying waveforms with your song.  Seems like a waste of time.

I'm sure as hell not going to bother writing a program to do that.  Make a riff, try a waveform/envelope, repeat til you like it.  Why use a second program, really? lol