Pyramid Plunder Public Beta

[TheOldMan]

I found one way to freeze it ever single time on level 1-5.

Okay, that one I can get to work all the time

There is something going wrong in the 'return to home' logic. By the time he hits the home base, he should have a new move ready - but he doesn't. I must have missed something somewhere. Or not updated that logic when I changed over to using a distance map for the homing routine.
I'm looking into it as tomorrows project
Hopefully, I'll have a new build this weekend - but don't hold me to that. Wife has plans for evenings this week, which cuts into my debugging time

..........

I had one game where one of the baddies spent almost the entire latter half of a level just wandering back and forth in the base and not popping out for me to either flee or kill.

Thats related to the bug we are trying to fix. They actually -do- spawn, but immediately return to home base. (ie, they never get completely out of the ghost house)

What are your thoughts on the directional flexibility/buffering issue?

No. Then you could do a bunch of moves, and they would play back, even if you -didn't- want them to.
The movement was carefully crafted to be like pac-man, and it works. If we change it much, you lose the ability to lose the ghosts with quick cornering.

And for everyone complaining about the scroll borders: That's the point of the scrolling! Use the radar to track the ghosts - it is accurate (1 pixel = 1 16x16 tile). It would lose a lot of challenge if you could see the ghosts coming from 5 or 6 tiles away.

[spenoza]

What are your thoughts on the directional flexibility/buffering issue?

No. Then you could do a bunch of moves, and they would play back, even if you -didn't- want them to.
The movement was carefully crafted to be like pac-man, and it works. If we change it much, you lose the ability to lose the ghosts with quick cornering.

I appear to have explained this badly. I don't mean you queue up your moves. What I mean is that within a margin of, say, 3/4 to 1/2 a square of movement, your last directional input that was unable to be completed is implemented when it is possible. This is interruptable. This means as I approach a turn, within 3/4 a pellet (as a unit of space in the game) if I hit the direction early and I can't actually turn that direction yet because I'm still next to a wall, I will turn when I do get to where the open space is. If I change my mind and hit the other direction, as a more recent input, it will trump the waiting turn. That should have no negative effect on quick cornering at all, because your last input is still the priority input. The only time a controller input would be saved for any length of time at all would be if that move cannot be completed, you are within x distance of making that move a valid move, and the move hasn't been pre-empted by another input.

And for everyone complaining about the scroll borders: That's the point of the scrolling! Use the radar to track the ghosts - it is accurate (1 pixel = 1 16x16 tile). It would lose a lot of challenge if you could see the ghosts coming from 5 or 6 tiles away.

This sounds like a rather poor attempt to do fog of war, which it really isn't since you have the minimap. If you are on a corner screen, you can see them coming from quite a distance depending on where you are, meaning the late scrolling seems a bit artificial as an attempt to introduce challenge. I found it far more irritating than I did challenging, and if the enemies had been more aggressive I would probably have found it to be more cheap than anything else.

[Arkhan]

I say the scrolling should be expanded 3 tiles for now.

Only because, the original Pac Man games didn't scroll L/R. They only went U/D, so you generally had a clear idea of where things were at and could survey the whole screen and move appropriately.   Usually, you can see all or at least half the ghosts on screen while you are playing..

[TheOldMan]

What I mean is that within a margin of, say, 3/4 to 1/2 a square of movement, your last directional input that was unable to be completed is implemented when it is possible. This is interruptable. This means as I approach a turn, within 3/4 a pellet (as a unit of space in the game) if I hit the direction early and I can't actually turn that direction yet because I'm still next to a wall, I will turn when I do get to where the open space is. If I change my mind and hit the other direction, as a more recent input, it will trump the waiting turn. That should have no negative effect on quick cornering at all, because your last input is still the priority input.

Which actually means you will -always- be able to corner quickly, because your move will not take effect until you can. Pac-man turns require timing to get the most out of them.
It is possible, in both pac-man and pp, to actually turn when you are before or after the center point of the tile. If you turn early, you gain distance on the ghosts. If you turn late, you lose distance. It's all in -when- you turn.

This sounds like a rather poor attempt to do fog of war, which it really isn't since you have the minimap. If you are on a corner screen, you can see them coming from quite a distance depending on where you are, meaning the late scrolling seems a bit artificial as an attempt to introduce challenge.

It's not the late scrolling that introduces the challenge: It's learning to use the map -before- you head into that new, unseen area. That's the whole reason the map exists.

I say the scrolling should be expanded 3 tiles for now.

TO 3 tiles or BY 3 tiles?
If I could have found info on when Ms PacMan scrolls, I woulda used those borders.
How about it? Anyone know how far you have to be from the edge for a Ms PacMan map to scroll?

[Arkhan]

The screen only scrolls down/up and it scrolls as soon as Ms PacMan cuts the screen in half, basically.

The arcade one didn't scroll.  The screen was tall enough to not need it.

[Keranu]

And for everyone complaining about the scroll borders: That's the point of the scrolling! Use the radar to track the ghosts - it is accurate (1 pixel = 1 16x16 tile). It would lose a lot of challenge if you could see the ghosts coming from 5 or 6 tiles away.

I have to agree with spenoza on this one since I was having the same problem. The map is a nice feature, but it's hard to focus on the single pixel map ghosts while you're constantly running away from them. The scrolling doesn't bother me that much, the "surprise" value is kinda fun... maybe just expand it slightly.

[Arkhan]

I never have this issue.  Then again I play staring at the radar, lol.

[nodtveidt]

And for everyone complaining about the scroll borders: That's the point of the scrolling! Use the radar to track the ghosts - it is accurate (1 pixel = 1 16x16 tile). It would lose a lot of challenge if you could see the ghosts coming from 5 or 6 tiles away.

That is what is known as "bullshit difficulty". Challenge created from a technical flaw is not legitimate challenge.

[Arkhan]

That is what is known as "bullshit difficulty". Challenge created from a technical flaw is not legitimate challenge.

Uhmmmm..bullshit difficulty would be doing this without a radar.  You're given the means to avoid it.  This would be like complaining in Defender that you crash into shit because it scrolled on screen too fast.   Look at the radar and don't fly top speed into the unknown.

Also, it's not a technical flaw. 

Technical flaw would imply we've coded something wrong.  AKA: A bug, like the wall-glitch crashing.  This is us picking an arbitrary value and using it because it seems comfortable during testing.

Not to mention, I just fired the game up again.  It scrolls 2 tiles from the edges.  That gives you plenty of reaction time especially if you're watching the radar.

So, I am going to go out on a limb and call some of you sissies.    You're not supposed to be pro at the game during

BETA TESTING.

also, you guys can handle dodging stuff in Blazing Lazers.  This is 2 tiles.  32 pixels.  With a radar to give you a heads up.  that's pretty decent for reaction-windows.

Just sayin'

[TheOldMan]

That is what is known as "bullshit difficulty". Challenge created from a technical flaw is not legitimate challenge.

No, that is what is known as a play mechanic. Deliberately chosen values to force the player to split his attention.
I can easily change the scroll border to as many tiles as I like. There is no technical problem there. It's a deliberate decision. Sorry you don't like it.

I just don't understand the whole arguement here. Everyone says the levels are too big and boring. Fine. The first levels -should- be like that, so new players can learn how the game operates. Not everyone is a professional gamer.

Then people are saying the scrolling is too close to the edges. But if I make it 4 or 5 tiles, theres no need for anyone to pay attention to the radar. The same thing applies to smaller levels. Theres a reason the radar is there, and it was a concious decision. Shrink the levels and/or change the scrolling, and there's no need for the radar. Appreciate it for what it is, and learn to use it.
..........................................
So, how far has everyone gotten in it? Anybody make it to 3-1?  4-1?
What's your high scrore ?

[Arkhan]

To be fair here, the levels don't need "shrinking" so much as they need some more dead-space where you don't have to grab anything.  I covered too much of the surface area of the levels with gold bars, making them completely tedious to deal with.  Some of them you almost walk on every tile for a bar.  It's too tedious.  I don't even like playing them and I made them.


Some dead space and thicker wall regions in some maps should help break up the monotony significantly.

[nodtveidt]

Well, I gave ya my 2c as an experienced game designer... do with it as you will.

[TheOldMan]

Well, I gave ya my 2c as an experienced game designer... do with it as you will.

After 20+ years of making games for various systems, and teaching people how to do it, I've learned 2 things:

1) Don't sweat the tweaks until all the bugs are fixed. If you worry about tweaks first, you end up with a neat looking but unplayable game.
2) You can't please everyone. Don't even try. Do what you think is right.

And the mantra I program by, given to me by a college professor way back in 1987:

"Make it work -first-. Then go back and make it nice, if you have the time. No one will use a program that doesn't work, but lots of people will adapt if they like what the program does."

[spenoza]

OK, I'm getting slightly mixed messages from the two of you. We need to know something, here. Is this JUST a release to help find and squash bugs, or is this also an open call for suggestions and improvements? If you are not at all interested in what we think, subjectively, of the game experience, you need to tell us.

OldMan's staunch defense of the narrow scrolling margin is a little dismissive of the concerns I and at least one other have of the impact of that design decision on the gameplay experience. You two are making the game, so it is your call, clearly, but I would encourage you to at least be open-minded about our complaints, unless that's not the kind of feedback you want.

[nodtveidt]

Old Rover's

You mean OldMan's.