Pyramid Plunder Public Beta

[Arkhan]

Right now we're looking for bugs.  As in ACTUAL technical issues with the game.  Not "technical flaws" that are nothing of the sort.

There are no new characters being added (Sorry Esteban, lol), and no new glaring gameplay additions like boss battles or challenge stages.   That we plan on, at least.  

We are definitely taking note of concerns people bring up.  I am big on staying involved with the actual people who are going to be throwing money at us for this stuff.  

I agree that the maps are tedious and need fixed up.  I agree the warp speed should be faster.

I also agree that there are polish-elements that need added, and the reason I agree is because, duh, they are going to be added in when the time comes.  Why polish something you're still working on?  I've already got my plans for polish.  It includes new tunes, among some other things.  

One point I disagree with you all on is the scrolling region being too narrow.  In my opinion, 2 tiles (32 pixels) is plenty of reaction time for you to turn around and run away.  Between the radar and the 32 pixel window of opportunity, what more do you want?  How easy do you guys want the game to be, really?   Are you even trying the radar out?  

I watched people play it all day at the CCAG and not a single person complained about the scrolling.  I let people play it who can play Pac Man and Ms. Pac Man for hours without dying.  They did not seem to find any issue with it either. they were more preoccupied with getting acquainted with the radar and messing with powerups.  

Rover openly admitted that he played like 2 levels and shut the game off before voicing all of his criticism.  

I'm pretty sure if the scrolling is expanded to cater to the LCD, the game is going to be too easy, and boring for a different reason than tedious maps.  It'll be a snooze fest because the games too goddamn easy and you can just waltz through it on your first try without dying.

Right now, the scroll-complaint is in the minority.  Show me actual proof that it's cheap and ruins the game, and maybe it will be considered more.  Just because we disagree with one complaint doesn't mean we're not taking note of anything.  

To be blunt, 3 or 4 out of about 80 active commentors so far isn't exactly something I consider a pressing matter.  I'm sure we will experiment with expanding it a bit, but don't hold your breath on it being a top priority.

Map tedium however, is voiced by everyone I've shown the game to.  That's pressing.  It also might make the scrolling complaint less of a complaint for the complainers once we fix it.

Also, contrary to what may be implied by some, this is f*ckin' amateur hour.  We're not professional game designers (yet?).  We're not professional anything.  We're a bunch of dorks recreating games we think are fun, and doing it the best we can.  The only experience I have with game design is a Space Invaders clone, Insanity, some RPGs I made, and all of my actual gaming experience (which is pretty extensive).  I'm using my best judgement when it comes to gameplay mechanics, and then, I am gauging the general populous.

No game is flawless, anyway.  The medusa heads and neverending spawns in Castlevania don't stop people from enjoying all of the other parts of the game that make it worth buying and playing.

[spenoza]

Old Rover's

You mean OldMan's.

Yes, my mistake. I'll correct the original post.

[TheOldMan]

In my opinion, 2 tiles (32 pixels) is plenty of reaction time....

I checked the actual defines. It's 3 tiles (48 pixels). It starts scrolling at the third tile from the edges.
It just seems like 2, because we display partial tiles.
That's easily tweakable, fwiw. Maybe even on a level-by-level basis.

.....staunch defense of the narrow scrolling margin is a little dismissive of the concerns

Not dismissive of actual concerns: dismissive of the results of the choice of the margin. (ie, "bullshit challenge" and "technical flaw"). I gave reasons for why that value was chosen. I still haven't heard any reason why it should be changed, other than it makes the game harder (which was the intent).

[spenoza]

I gave reasons for why that value was chosen. I still haven't heard any reason why it should be changed, other than it makes the game harder (which was the intent).

Not all things that make the game harder are good ways to make the game harder. I never did reach a level where I felt I was in danger of on-screen enemies. I honestly got killed more times misjudging when power pellet would wear off (I could SWEAR what killed me was, several times, still flashing and not back to solid-color yet) than by any aggressive actions on the part of the enemies (never, by the enemies chasing me or cornering me, actually). I was never killed by off-screen enemies, I just found it inconsistent that my view was so limited when moving from one part of the screen to another, but not when I was in a stable area of the screen.

Also, Arkhan, I think you can only assume people have played the beta if they've posted about it. If they're playing it and not saying anything, they aren't part of the pool, and you can't assume that they're just silently happy. They may be equally silently disinterested.

[Arkhan]

Oh, so it is 3 tiles.  I thought that was what we went with like, 2 years ago.   That's even better!   It does look like 2.  Maybe 2.5.  

Not all things that make the game harder are good ways to make the game harder. I never did reach a level where I felt I was in danger of on-screen enemies. I honestly got killed more times misjudging when power pellet would wear off (I could SWEAR what killed me was, several times, still flashing and not back to solid-color yet) than by any aggressive actions on the part of the enemies (never, by the enemies chasing me or cornering me, actually). I was never killed by off-screen enemies, I just found it inconsistent that my view was so limited when moving from one part of the screen to another, but not when I was in a stable area of the screen.

Some of the lack of enemy aggression is related to the current bug.  I honestly am wondering why you didn't mention the rest of this in favor of the scrolling.  If there is a timing issue with power pellet wear-offs, that is more pressing than the scrolling, isn't it?  lol.

Also, Arkhan, I think you can only assume people have played the beta if they've posted about it. If they're playing it and not saying anything, they aren't part of the pool, and you can't assume that they're just silently happy. They may be equally silently disinterested.

I am not talking about the people on this forum.  I am talking about OTHER people I've shown the game to in person, which includes friends, other developers in other scenes that don't post on PCEFX, and the CCAG. I talked to as many people playing the game as possible and got their feedback.  Not a single person mentioned the scrolling except the small contained group here.

[nodtveidt]

Well, whatever. I won't voice my opinions anymore.

[Arkhan]

Well, whatever. I won't voice my opinions anymore.

well, when your opinions are calling things bullshit, referring to things as bugs that you know aren't bugs, and then waving the experienced game designer card around, what do you expect? lol

Just because we disagree with ONE thing you complain about doesn't mean you should get all pee pants that noone cares about your opinion.  It's not like the other shit you griped about wasn't taken note of.  This includes the crappy sprites you dogged on, that we're approved by your sprite artist, and are now being worked on a bit, by your sprite artist.

[Black Tiger]

One point I disagree with you all on is the scrolling region being too narrow.  In my opinion, 2 tiles (32 pixels) is plenty of reaction time for you to turn around and run away.  Between the radar and the 32 pixel window of opportunity, what more do you want?  How easy do you guys want the game to be, really?   Are you even trying the radar out?

I know you said that you don't plan to do any kind of challenge mode, but how about giving people the option of turning the radar off if they want to challenge themselves?

Right now, the scroll-complaint is in the minority.  Show me actual proof that it's cheap and ruins the game, and maybe it will be considered more.  Just because we disagree with one complaint doesn't mean we're not taking note of anything.

I haven't had the time to try the demo yet, but it doesn't sound like the scroll buffer will be an issue for me difficulty wise. I've played many games which felt as though the scroll point was too close to the edge of the screen and it doesn't always affect the difficulty.

But it does affect the feel of a game for me and I dislike the claustrophobia it induces. I get the same feeling from 3D games with terrible draw distances or playing 3D racers in the hood perspective. I'm sure that I'll enjoy the game either way, but I'd personally prefer the difficulty increased in other ways as scroll points are a pet peeve of mine.

[nodtveidt]

well, when your opinions are calling things bullshit, referring to things as bugs that you know aren't bugs, and then waving the experienced game designer card around, what do you expect? lol

I call it like I see it. And I didn't wave any card around. And if I did, it sure wouldn't be made of aluminum.

[spenoza]

Some of the lack of enemy aggression is related to the current bug.  I honestly am wondering why you didn't mention the rest of this in favor of the scrolling.  If there is a timing issue with power pellet wear-offs, that is more pressing than the scrolling, isn't it?   lol.

I'm not certain there is a timing issued with the power pellets, yet. I've not played quite enough. I suspect there might be, but I need more time to suss it out to see if it is just my perceptions. I don't wanna call "Gotcha!" on a bug that might not be. Bugs are different from opinions. Opinions I can speak freely. Bugs I don't want to misreport. Sounds like you're already hammering on the ghost behavior one. Don't want to have you chasing phantoms just yet with that known issue still out there.

Hey, I didn't mention the scrolling at CCAG, either, if you'll remember. I needed to sit down with it at home, spend some quality time.

But it does affect the feel of a game for me and I dislike the claustrophobia it induces. I get the same feeling from 3D games with terrible draw distances or playing 3D racers in the hood perspective. I'm sure that I'll enjoy the game either way, but I'd personally prefer the difficulty increased in other ways as scroll points are a pet peeve of mine.

This also. Thanks, BT, for voicing something I was having trouble expressing.

[TheOldMan]

how about giving people the option of turning the radar off

Good idea. And easy enough to do. I'll add it to the list - but it will have to be from the debug menu. All the buttons are in use

...I dislike the claustrophobia it induces...

We're still discussing some changes to the border. But -maybe- we could add that to the debug menu too. I'll have to think about it some.

I'm not certain there is a timing issued with the power pellets, yet.

I'm sure. I stepped frame-by-frame through that stuff. If he's colored in (and not blue/white) when your death animation plays, he changed back before you got him.

[Necromancer]

Are you even trying the radar out?  

Nope.  The Wii U experience doesn't really interest me.

Show me actual proof that it's cheap and ruins the game, and maybe it will be considered more.

Provide proof that it isn't cheap and improves the game experience.  Oh that's right, you can't prove 'fun'.

[Arkhan]

I'm not certain there is a timing issued with the power pellets, yet. I've not played quite enough. I suspect there might be, but I need more time to suss it out to see if it is just my perceptions. I don't wanna call "Gotcha!" on a bug that might not be. Bugs are different from opinions. Opinions I can speak freely. Bugs I don't want to misreport. Sounds like you're already hammering on the ghost behavior one. Don't want to have you chasing phantoms just yet with that known issue still out there.

SignOfZeta pointed out something similar at the CCAG, and it may be sorted out now, with regards to eatable-state stuff and ghosts.   I am more concerned with the ghosts operating properly than anything.   Map fixes are next. 

Hey, I didn't mention the scrolling at CCAG, either, if you'll remember. I needed to sit down with it at home, spend some quality time.

I started explicitly asking people at one point.  I got lots of "who cares this is neat" and "this is fine" and "the radar is more important"'s.   There was even one guy that said we should make the border the screen edge.  But, I think that is a baaaaaad idea. 

But it does affect the feel of a game for me and I dislike the claustrophobia it induces. I get the same feeling from 3D games with terrible draw distances or playing 3D racers in the hood perspective. I'm sure that I'll enjoy the game either way, but I'd personally prefer the difficulty increased in other ways as scroll points are a pet peeve of mine.

This also. Thanks, BT, for voicing something I was having trouble expressing.

Yeah.  Well, it is hard to please everyone.  While I disagree and think they're fine, we're going to at least *try* some other options in an attempt to appease you guys, and any other potential sissie... i mean, gamers, who are a bit more claustrophobic. 

Nope.  The Wii U experience doesn't really interest me.

errr. It's not a separate controller.  It's just the top of the screen...I'm not sure how else to respond to this.

Provide proof that it isn't cheap and improves the game experience.  Oh that's right, you can't prove 'fun'.

I already quoted some statistics and have received only a few scroll point complaints.   You've seen them all.  I want to see it being an a$$hole in action so I can have a better reason to change it than "3 or 4 people didn't like it".  I played it alot myself, and watched people play it and never really saw any cheapness. That's why I want to see it happen.

As it stands right now, there are more people who don't care or think it is a nice balance that adds a frantic thrill to running around. 

As for proving fun: the smiles, yells, and encouraging words from all the people who played the demo right in front of me are pretty good proof that this is fun and that people enjoy it.

[Arkhan]

new build is up.

go grab it at www.aetherbyte.com !

and see the new protocards while you are there. 

[Necromancer]

errr. It's not a separate controller.  It's just the top of the screen...I'm not sure how else to respond to this.

The obvious point was that you're trying to split the player's attention away from the main action.  I've yet to play a game where I enjoyed such an experience, but to each their own.

I already quoted some statistics and have received only a few scroll point complaints.   You've seen them all.

People saying they like it doesn't 'prove' anything, nor does it negate that others don't like it (and vice versa).  Most people think that Deep Blue sucks, so does that 'prove' that you're wrong for enjoying it?

I want to see it being an a$$hole in action so I can have a better reason to change it than "3 or 4 people didn't like it".  I played it alot myself, and watched people play it and never really saw any cheapness. That's why I want to see it happen.

You've never seen anyone go running towards the scroll side of the screen and run into an enemy?

As for proving fun: the smiles, yells, and encouraging words from all the people who played the demo right in front of me are pretty good proof that this is fun and that people enjoy it.

I can dislike part of a game and still love and enjoy the overall product (see Gotzendiener).  Can't you?

I think I'll join Rover in refraining from this circle jerk.  There's not much point in a discussion where I'm labeled as a moron or pussy for not liking one single aspect of the game play.