PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...

[RegalSin]

While something is in 2d, it resides in a 3d world. The television is really a seeing ball into another world, where you think you are controlling the player, but it is just you weilding it from afar. Each time you turn it off, that universe is colliding into a time warp that lasts forever. Controlled by you. Like a comic book, you can flip to any point in time, just by turning a page. Thus the bullet might pass the ship.

[Arkhan]

We're talking about spaceships, robots, flying females, boobs, and all kinds of other weird shit.  What part of that implies you can't have an enemy shooting concentric circles of bullets all over the place.  

I don't think bullet hells started as an e-penis kind of thing.  That's an American concept.   I think Japan was just looking for something beyond the usual shooter challenges.

The games usually require some finesse.  It's a different mindset requirement than something like Final Soldier, etc.

What's wrong with female bosses?  They have to be big burly dudes for it to be legit?

euhhh

also: FFS, even regal sin gets it. 


Hasn't anyone else ever watched a cartoon where the heroic pilot flies through a hail of gunfire, spiraling through all the bullets as they barely miss the ship?

If Soldier Blade, etc were drawn as a cartoon,  wouldn't you find it retarded to see no near-miss encounters?  Fights where all the bullets either pass to the left or the right.  Never above or below, and never too close for comfort?

It would look dumb.

[SamIAm]

I think the bullet hell genre really arose as an attempt to show off how many sprites the creators could push around on screen. I think it was initially a contest over who has the biggest penis. More bullets! More explosions! More score multipliers! Look how much CRAP we can throw on the screen and still keep track of!

All about numbers of sprites and collision routines. It grew out of that to become something more than that, but I'm pretty sure that's how it started.

That's kind of a pessimistic way of putting it.

The programmer/designer of Dodonpachi and head of Cave, Tsuneki Ikeda, has said that he was simply inspired by Battle Garegga, which arguably doesn't even qualify as a bullet-hell game. He said the in particular blew his mind, and he tried to outdo it in Dodonpachi. Granted, he also said he compared screenshots and tried to use twice the bullets, but that still doesn't make the design totally superficial. I think they just wanted to experiment and try new things.

I really love how you can say that shmups are about the oldest game genre in existence today, and yet they keep evolving.

[Starfighter]

What's wrong with female bosses?  They have to be big burly dudes for it to be legit?

euhhh

I like the bosses in the Mushihimesama- and Deathsmiles-games, there's good examples of fun bosses. But then they f*ck it up by making the player character a pair of talking tits, more or less.

[SamIAm]

What's wrong with female bosses?  They have to be big burly dudes for it to be legit?

euhhh

I like the bosses in the Mushihimesama- and Deathsmiles-games, there's good examples of fun bosses. But then they f*ck it up by making the player character a pair of talking tits, more or less.

Indeed, a lot of the sexy anime girls are there for the sake of being sexy anime girls, not because they are a good fit into the whole design aesthetic.

Don't get me wrong, I love tits as much as the next guy, but there is such a thing as out-of-place tits.

[spenoza]

I don't have a problem with female characters. One of the pilots in Darius is a girl. I just don't like the whole anime tit-chick as a boss thing, in part because it is incongruous. The anime chicks fit in just fine in Parodius, but in a lot of other places it is just crazy. Parodius is by nature a parody. But the doujin bullet hell shooters where you are fighting a boss who IS an over-boobed 14-year-old, making semi-sexual moans when she gets hit, that's not only a stupid theme but a really good example of one of Japan's major cultural problems, one that the nation really refuses to come to terms with.

And yeah, I have problems with bullet patterns. Ideally, boss attacks should react to player actions, not be fully scripted, and again, I know it's artificial and there is some suspension of disbelief, but the bullet patterns are so disconnected from anything that makes sense that I have trouble reconciling it. I mean, I'm OK with a boss in a typical shooter who goes into a patter briefly to fire some beam cannons straight down the screen, but usually that character is otherwise aiming at the player with single shots or spreads. Having this really slow, floaty pretzel of bullets all over the place does not at all make me imagine a craft screaming through a hail of bullets. Instead, it makes me wonder why on earth these balls of feathers are deadly.

Sometimes a game pulls it off for me. I don't hate all bullet hell games. Some of them manage to be awesome. But generally, I prefer the kind of challenge R-Type brings to the table. R-Type is just as hard as any bullet hell I've played, and it does it by being devious rather than filling up the screen with projectiles.

And while the e-penis thing surely isn't the only reason for the origins of the bullet hell genre, I'm pretty sure it played a big role. Whenever "bigger is better" or "more is better" enters the picture, you know there's some penis behind it somewhere.

[Arkhan]

I don't have a problem with female characters. One of the pilots in Darius is a girl. I just don't like the whole anime tit-chick as a boss thing, in part because it is incongruous. The anime chicks fit in just fine in Parodius, but in a lot of other places it is just crazy. Parodius is by nature a parody. But the doujin bullet hell shooters where you are fighting a boss who IS an over-boobed 14-year-old, making semi-sexual moans when she gets hit, that's not only a stupid theme but

So?  Don't play them then.  It's like complaining that you don't like all the dicks in a gay porn.  Stop watching it.

a really good example of one of Japan's major cultural problems, one that the nation really refuses to come to terms with.

And yet they're still a better country than the US.

And yeah, I have problems with bullet patterns. Ideally, boss attacks should react to player actions, not be fully scripted, and again, I know it's artificial and there is some suspension of disbelief, but the bullet patterns are so disconnected from anything that makes sense that I have trouble reconciling it. I mean, I'm OK with a boss in a typical shooter who goes into a patter briefly to fire some beam cannons straight down the screen, but usually that character is otherwise aiming at the player with single shots or spreads. Having this really slow, floaty pretzel of bullets all over the place does not at all make me imagine a craft screaming through a hail of bullets. Instead, it makes me wonder why on earth these balls of feathers are deadly.

Most bosses in most games from this era, follow patterns.  Even when they aim and shoot at you, it's still a pattern.  That's just as predictable as a pattern of bullets.  OH IM FLYING TO THE RIGHT, HES GOING TO SHOOT TO THE RIGHT NOW.

Hell half the time the boss is moving in some goony pattern anyways. 

Bullet hells are just a different kind of shooter.  It's sort of pointless to fault them for their biggest feature.  Next we're going to say baseball games are pointless because you have to hit a ball with a bat.

R-Type is just as hard as any bullet hell I've played, and it does it by being devious rather than filling up the screen with projectiles.

and, RType is not without problems either.  If you lose your powerups, you might as well hit reset.

And while the e-penis thing surely isn't the only reason for the origins of the bullet hell genre, I'm pretty sure it played a big role. Whenever "bigger is better" or "more is better" enters the picture, you know there's some penis behind it somewhere.

This is nonsense.  You're holding everything to the American view of bigger is better.  I'm fairly certain this is more of an artistic movement than a HUHAHAUHUHUH WE GOT MORE SHIT THAN YOUR CRAPPY GAME.  LOOK AT ALL THIS STUFF OMG WE WIN.

That explains why the bullet patterns have neat looking designs

[Necromancer]

Well, the criticism is "you have a tiny hitbox so you can dodge stupid patterns"... and yeah, that's crazy talk.

Okay, delete the word 'stupid': the only reason they use a one pixel hit box is to make tighter bullet patterns.  Period.  You ascribing it to the designers trying to add 3D gameplay elements (automagic controls that you can't see or command) to a 2D game is nothing but horseshit.

It means you're missing the point of the game and implying the whole thing is stupid.

I implied no such thing; it's just the bullet spraying that I find stupid.  I'd find it much more interesting if the enemies would actually aim rather than spewing out the same spread of bullets no matter where you are.

God forbid anyone apply any form of reasoning or imagination to a design element of a genre with something other than "its there so you can easily dodge stupid things"

God forbid someone use logic instead of pulling shit out of their ass and calling it 'imagination'.

Bullet hells are just a different kind of shooter.  It's sort of pointless to fault them for their biggest feature.  Next we're going to say baseball games are pointless because you have to hit a ball with a bat.

Yeah, Spenoza: never discuss an aspect of a game you don't particularly like - just don't play it and keep your mouth shut!

[spenoza]

I am merely explaining why *I* am not a fan of bullet hell games. My explanations are my rationale. They do not have to be your rationale. You'll just have to get over it, Arkhan. As far as I'm concerned, my reasons are good ones.

And no, Japan is not necessarily a better place to live than the US. I spent some quality time there. Mostly, it is just different. I get pissed off at the US all the time these days, what with much of the politics and recent laws and legislation, but Japan is no better, just different. Japan's problem with the sexualization of young girls and lack of laws to really address child pornography IS a major problem, and that's something that is widely recognized.

[Arkhan]

Okay, delete the word 'stupid': the only reason they use a one pixel hit box is to make tighter bullet patterns.  Period.  You ascribing it to the designers trying to add 3D gameplay elements (automagic controls that you can't see or command) to a 2D game is nothing but horseshit.

Yeah, it's horse shit that they may have been trying to create a different kind of high-thrills shooting immersion than the standard shooters.  Why look at things from that standpoint.  It's all cut and dry.   WYSIWYG.

Asteroids isn't you flying through space shooting asteroids down.  It's a triangle shooting pellets at jagged circles in a 15" square room.  

Defender isn't a ship destroying UFOs and saving humans.  It's a doorstop flying around in a black and red box shooting at multicolored blobs while grabbing sticks.  

Missile Command isn't you at the controls of a missile defense system.  It's you polishing a miniature bowling ball while shooting dots at lines.

The world in all vertical shooters is rectangular. Nothing exists to the left and right.  What's behind you is eaten by the planet as you move forward.  You can never go back.  You can't fly too far left or right because the world is only that wide.

I implied no such thing; it's just the bullet spraying that I find stupid.  I'd find it much more interesting if the enemies would actually aim rather than spewing out the same spread of bullets no matter where you are.

If they just aimed, it'd be like any other non bullet hell shooter.  They are shooting a circular pattern of bullets at you, it really wouldn't matter if they aimed at you or not.   Saying that the patterns are stupid and that you would rather have aiming means you don't like bullet hells very much.  

God forbid someone use logic instead of pulling shit out of their ass and calling it 'imagination'.

Yeah, imagination applying to video games is horse shit!  I forgot.  Only logic can be applied to games where there are flying tits and lazers.  

Yeah, Spenoza: never discuss an aspect of a game you don't particularly like - just don't play it and keep your mouth shut!

It's not a specific game here, it's a genre, and the complaints are pretty pointless, only because it's complaining about the obvious.  

The tits/female boss stuff is not what I am referring to.  I'm referring to complaining about being "unable to reconcile" with bullet patterns in a bullet hell game.  It's suffice to say "i don't like bullet hells".  Going on about how they make no sense, aren't realistic, or are illogical is pretty dopey.

You don't hear me say

"I don't like driving games because I find it stupid that I have to accelerate the car, and then it's stupid that you skid when you turn too fast, and I really hate that you have to hit the brakes sometimes.  The Oil slicks are stupid too.  All the bikini girls on the side of the road are pointless.  I can't reconcile with the fact that there is a time limit. Why am I timed while I cruise down the street?  That's not how it works in the real world"  

I just say "I don't like driving games".  The rest is implied, and it would be stupid to argue or complain about it, since it is obvious, genre defining stuff.

If it were specific aspects of a specific game, it'd be different.  When we start getting into cultural analysis nonsense, and all kinds of other superficial shit, I start to wonder wtf we are even talking about anymore.  Are we talking about a game, or panties in a vending machine and kiddie porn.

[spenoza]

The tits/female boss stuff is not what I am referring to.  I'm referring to complaining about being "unable to reconcile" with bullet patterns in a bullet hell game.  It's suffice to say "i don't like bullet hells".  Going on about how they make no sense, aren't realistic, or are illogical is pretty dopey.

Yeah, heaven forbid I talk specifically about WHY I don't like something! The particular aspects I pointed out are aspects of the genre I have trouble suspending disbelief over. That's all. There's nothing "illogical" or "dopey" about my complaints. You just don't like them because you clearly disagree. It's really stupid and pointless when you try to invalidate the opinions of others just because you don't feel the same way.

[Arkhan]

Yeah, heaven forbid I talk specifically about WHY I don't like something! The particular aspects I pointed out are aspects of the genre I have trouble suspending disbelief over. That's all. There's nothing "illogical" or "dopey" about my complaints. You just don't like them because you clearly disagree. It's really stupid and pointless when you try to invalidate the opinions of others just because you don't feel the same way.

I'm not trying to invalidate your opinions.  I just see no point to complaining about bullet patterns in bullet hells as reason to not like them, especially when the reasoning becomes textbook analytical.  

also, you just called my opinion of your opinion stupid and pointless.  How dare you.

also I didn't say you were being illogical.  Read it again.

I'm convinced people like to immediately hit the "Arkhan's being an obnoxious jackass" button without stopping to get the point.   It sounds like you may have misread my post and jumped on the turbodefensive.  Plus your reasoning and opinion on bullet hell games has changed.  First you said they arose as e-penis nonsense, then you changed your tune a bit, then you brought up cultural shit, and then you said you only like cute em ups or legit aircrafts.    Most shooters aren't legit aircrafts.  Make up your mind.  What's the real reason you don't like bullet hells?

Is it that you hate dodging pretzelpatterns, the Japanese girl/kidporn culture is evil, its not legit/realistic enough for your analytical side, or what? 

f*ck it though.  Proceed with the lengthy, analytical discussions of why bullet patterns make you not like bullet hells because it's not realistic and you don't like lace patterns.  IDGAF.  Arguing about it is more pointless than saying you don't like it because its being itself.

I hate sports games because you have to do sports.  Sports are stupid and I don't like them because sport culture is wrong.

EDIT: I added shit and some of your imaginations suck.

[Starfighter]

I want to go back to the initial question;

I recently got into Sega Saturn, and started collecting shmups for it.
I must say, after playing games like Darius Gaiden, Sōkyūgurentai, Dodonpachi, Batsugun and Battle Garegga, I am having hard going back to the PCE shmups.
They seem dated to me now in terms of presentation and game play. Anyone feel the same?

I don't really feel like the PCE shmups become obsolete because I have played games within the genre on stronger consoles. In the same vein I don't find PS1-games dated just because I play PS2 and PS3 and so on. It's just different, and I love variety.

[Necromancer]

Yeah, it's horse shit that they may have been trying to create a different kind of high-thrills shooting immersion than the standard shooters.  Why look at things from that standpoint.  It's all cut and dry.   WYSIWYG.

What's horseshit is your belief that all bullet hells have one-pixel hit boxes.  A bullet hell is different from standard shooters because of the maze of bullets, not because the maze of bullets is so tight the hit box must be shrunk to nothing.

Asteroids isn't you flying through space shooting asteroids down.  It's a triangle shooting pellets at jagged circles in a 15" square room.  

Defender isn't a ship destroying UFOs and saving humans.  It's a doorstop flying around in a black and red box shooting at multicolored blobs while grabbing sticks.  

Missile Command isn't you at the controls of a missile defense system.  It's you polishing a miniature bowling ball while shooting dots at lines.

What a load.  Your 'imagination' of why there's a one pixel hit box isn't at all analogous to using one's imagination to fill in the blanks on graphical representations.  Using such logic, it's equally sensible to say that Asteroids is aiming an Egyptian pyramid at the heavens to successfully ascend the pharaoh within; it's all open to the end user's interpretation, right?  Whatever I can imagine is law!

If they just aimed, it'd be like any other non bullet hell shooter.  They are shooting a circular pattern of bullets at you, it really wouldn't matter if they aimed at you or not.   Saying that the patterns are stupid and that you would rather have aiming means you don't like bullet hells very much.

Who says the enemies can't aim and unleash a wild spray of bullets?  Look at the old shooters where part of the attack is a generic pattern where you can often find a safe spot to sit, and part of the attack is aimed directly at you (or home in on you) to scare you out of the hidey hole.

[Arkhan]

What's horseshit is your belief that all bullet hells have one-pixel hit boxes.  A bullet hell is different from standard shooters because of the maze of bullets, not because the maze of bullets is so tight the hit box must be shrunk to nothing.

at what point did I say I believe all bullet hells have 1 pixel hit boxes?  I was under the assumption that we were exaggerating that point to make fun of how the hit boxes are pretty loose, like, bullets passing through half your ships wing, etc.

Duhr?

What a load.  Your 'imagination' of why there's a one pixel hit box isn't at all analogous to using one's imagination to fill in the blanks on graphical representations.  Using such logic, it's equally sensible to say that Asteroids is aiming an Egyptian pyramid at the heavens to successfully ascend the pharaoh within; it's all open to the end user's interpretation, right?  Whatever I can imagine is law!

Yes it is.  Imagination and Immersion are a bit universal.

and no you can't imagine that, because the game TELLS you what the game is about.  It's called Asteroids, not Egyptoroids.

Who says the enemies can't aim and unleash a wild spray of bullets?  Look at the old shooters where part of the attack is a generic pattern where you can often find a safe spot to sit, and part of the attack is aimed directly at you (or home in on you) to scare you out of the hidey hole.

They could, but then they wouldn't be bullet hell pattern extravaganzas.