Does anyone REALLY like Street Fighter II on the PC Engine?

[esteban]

I read this entire thread, again, from the first post. "Why?" I ask myself.

So, seriously, here are some things I'm curious about:

(1) I always assume that the most fun would involve two evenly-matched human players
(2) Since #1 is not always possible, I would assume that single-player mode is important for many folks?
(3) Are there important (albeit subtle) differences in the AI (across all ____ versions of SF II) for single-player matches?

If I were a fan of SF II, I know that the single-player experience would be an important consideration when evaluating a game. My brother, who has always been obsessed with SF II, prefers playing with humans.

Cook prefers to mash buttons when playing Street Fighter II'.

[spenoza]

I don't see why people think the chip tunes are superior to that of the snes version

Protip:  All music on the SNES is "chiptunes."

Well, one could argue that since the SNES's audio is sample-based like the Amiga, rather than waveform-based like PSG and FM synth, that it might be considered a slightly different beast.

[Bonknuts]

I don't see why people think the chip tunes are superior to that of the snes version

Protip:  All music on the SNES is "chiptunes."

Well, one could argue that since the SNES's audio is sample-based like the Amiga, rather than waveform-based like PSG and FM synth, that it might be considered a slightly different beast.

 Meh, it's just a different form of creating the instruments. Sample based synth. It's not like they're nothing but samples playing by some list or such, or like the PCM channel setups on the Genesis and PCE/TG16. The sample is only one part of the over all 'instrument', it's pitch bent into the whole octave range and have modifiers like volume envelope, lfo envelope, loop points inside the sample for further keying and bending the sound, etc. The SPU in the SNES could easily replicate the PCE audio (one 32sample waveform, played at different frequencies). But yeah, most people associate chiptune with more primitive audio hardware. But really, it just means chip generated music in realtime VS prerecorded like red book or just streaming in general.

[spenoza]

I don't see why people think the chip tunes are superior to that of the snes version

Protip:  All music on the SNES is "chiptunes."

Well, one could argue that since the SNES's audio is sample-based like the Amiga, rather than waveform-based like PSG and FM synth, that it might be considered a slightly different beast.

 Meh, it's just a different form of creating the instruments. Sample based synth. It's not like they're nothing but samples playing by some list or such, or like the PCM channel setups on the Genesis and PCE/TG16. The sample is only one part of the over all 'instrument', it's pitch bent into the whole octave range and have modifiers like volume envelope, lfo envelope, loop points inside the sample for further keying and bending the sound, etc. The SPU in the SNES could easily replicate the PCE audio (one 32sample waveform, played at different frequencies). But yeah, most people associate chiptune with more primitive audio hardware. But really, it just means chip generated music in realtime VS prerecorded like red book or just streaming in general.

I think to many, however, chiptune implies a certain kind of sound, and while some SNES tunes do have that kind of sound, many others sound more like MOD, IT, or S3M tracker files, which have a distinctly different sound than chiptunes. Also, the SNES has that DSP and seems to default to doing lots of funky filtering (which actually makes some things sound less good) and thus renders things less chip-tune-y. By your argument, with which I don't entirely disagree, quite a bit of Playstation and Saturn audio could be considered chiptunes, even though those tunes often sound commensurate with yellow book and red book audio.

So I guess it kinda depends on whether you view chiptunes from a strictly technical viewpoint, a mostly technical viewpoint, or an artistic/stylistic viewpoint.

[Joe Redifer]

SNES is 100% chiptunes.  Case closed.

[Black Tiger]

I don't see why people think the chip tunes are superior to that of the snes version, but whatever. Its a great version nevertheless, about the only reason why I would have gotten this back in the day is to play it on the go as I already had the snes turbo version.

The composition, or actual "music", sounds better to many people, myself included. Whether you enjoy the sounds being used by any version more than others is a separate aspect. Most retro game commentors online seem to be completely oblivious to the actual music in games (which many seem to not even actually play) and are only concerned with the type of sound being used. Again, going by the comments I often read, many of those people don't even seem to actually listen to the sounds being used either, and only like the sound of their favorite console while despising the sounds of rival consoles. More often than not these people are SNES fans.

[ccovell]

The word "chiptune" is said to originate on the Amiga, actually (ca. 1988-89).  Amiga MODs, etc, usually used large samples for "modern" sounding music, but some composers and tracker programmers opted to use extremely short SID-like sample loops (square waves, triangle, etc) to sound like older sound chips.

"Chiptune" was invented after sample-based computers came along to distinguish the two styles of sound.  Before that they were just called SIDs, beeper-music, etc.

[spenoza]

"Chiptune" was invented after sample-based computers came along to distinguish the two styles of sound.  Before that they were just called SIDs, beeper-music, etc.

So, pre-Amiga music would be chiptunes, and Amiga and modern audio would be post chiptune?

[Arkhan]

nowadays Chiptune is just the hipster douche slang for over arped horse shit.

[esteban]

So, can anyone help answer my earlier questions about different versions of SFII providing different AI?

I'm not interested in attempts by Capcom to "balance" the players' strengths/weaknesses. I'm talking about the sophistication of the computer opponent's offensive/defensive strategies.

nowadays Chiptune is just the hipster douche slang for over arped horse shit.

Suck my HuC6230, you arpeggio-hatin' bastard.

[Joe Redifer]

nowadays Chiptune is just the hipster douche slang for over arped horse shit.

Quoted for f*ckin' truth.

[SignOfZeta]

So, can anyone help answer my earlier questions about different versions of SFII providing different AI?

I'm not interested in attempts by Capcom to "balance" the players' strengths/weaknesses. I'm talking about the sophistication of the computer opponent's offensive/defensive strategies.

AI is pretty primitive on any fighting game. Did things actually change across the five versions of SFII? Well, yeah, because they added four more characters and those have needed AI routines. Other than that...? Probably not. Playing SFII by yourself is the sound of one hand clapping. Its pointless. The game hasn't retained its popularity for 20 years because of the one player experience.

Other things:

There are most definitely five versions of SFII. Its total revisionist bullshit to say now, 20 years later, that many of these revisions are so slight they don't deserve to be called different games. Sure, some of the upgrades were very minor (mainly SFII') but they are different games. They have different entries in Capcom's catalog they were released on home systems with different names, and only two actually share the same board, IIRC. Turbo was sold as an upgrade to Dash, but I think it was also sold complete. SFII is non-upgradable, as are Super and Super Turbo, which were both sold on non-upgradable CPS2 boards. I might be wrong about a details or two there, but the idea is basically correct.

The SNES makes chip tunes. The "sound" isn't what makes it a chip tune. The term existed long before the current definition. If its not coming out of a tape or a CD or a solid state synths (i.e.: the Space Invaders arcade board) then its chip tunes.

[spenoza]

Seems to me the term "chiptune" is ill-defined and has variable meaning depending on context and the community using it. I don't think our discussion has solved anything. It's pretty unimportant, anyway. Ambiguous terminology seems to exist only to cause arguments.

I think of Street Fighter II as a 2.0 release, with II' being 2.5 and II Turbo being a 2.7, at least by feel. And Super feels like a 3.0 release, with Super Turbo being 3.2. They're all different, clearly, but they're all also clearly sharing the same lineage.

[bust3dstr8]

Capcom released a sixth game on CPS2 which is all the 5 versions in one handy dandy case.

[Ninja Spirit]

Sharp X68000 version takes it