Author Topic: Turbo Duo...What went wrong?  (Read 3519 times)

Arkhan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14142
  • Fuck Elmer.
    • Incessant Negativity Software
Re: Turbo Duo...What went wrong?
« Reply #90 on: April 08, 2012, 11:34:24 AM »
Not entirely correct. Here is a quote from Wikipedia about the MMC 1-3:

-_-;

Quote
Most licensed games used either the MMC1 or the MMC3, which could swap graphics data for animated tiles, diagonal scrolling, and had a built-in interrupt counter for split screen effects


This is MEMORY MANAGEMENT

that's what the MMC stands for, lol.  

Quote
Sure, it did memory mapping, but there were other chips that also did that.

Yeah, and they were all called MMC# too or some were called VRC#

Quote
The MMCs also allowed for improved video effects and such that were difficult or impossible with the stock NES hardware. They weren't massive hardware expansions like the SuperFX chip on the SNES or the MMC5 on the NES, but they did improve system capabilities beyond simply being memory mappers. I consider those hardware expansions. Super Mario Bros. 3, for example, could not have been made as it was without MMC3, and not just for the memory mapping.

All the improved video effects are from memory management.   It's a hardware expansion, sure, but not in any grand sense.  

and, all MMC3 has in it IS memory mapping. and the scanline IRQ to do split scrolling easier.  But hey, they did it before MMC3.  It just became *easier*.   It could've been done without it, but would have been a few pains in the ass.    What the hell else do you think is in the thing? Magic?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-Memory_Controller#List_of_MMC_chips

There's all the memory mappers.  Note how some of the later ones were barely used due to price.  Also note how some of them weren't even used in the US.

then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-Memory_Controller#Third-party_chips

Note the fact that we didn't get most of these, but they are still mostly memory mappers.

The really cool extra hardware is the Namco163.  It gives you sweet music.


You're making it sound like the cartridges had amazing extra addons, when really all it did was include a useful memory mapper.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 11:38:32 AM by Arkhan »
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

I'm a max level Forum Warrior.  I'm immortal.
If you're not ready to defend your claims, don't post em.

NightWolve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5277
Re: Turbo Duo...What went wrong?
« Reply #91 on: April 08, 2012, 02:05:13 PM »
Hm, that was interesting:

Quote
Since the NES, unlike the Famicom, did not allow cartridges to add additional sound channels, the soundtrack on the western versions could only access the original five sound channels built into the NES and had to be reworked.

Why the hell did they redesign that ability OUT of the NES system if it had already gone into the Famicom design?

@Tatsujin: I'm adding that slowclap animated GIF to my PWN image collection. Thank you! ;) I guess my avatar would've worked for your purposes too, but eh, that one is kinda old.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 05:32:22 PM by NightWolve »

ccovell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2245
Re: Turbo Duo...What went wrong?
« Reply #92 on: April 08, 2012, 02:09:21 PM »
Quote
Most licensed games used either the MMC1 or the MMC3, which could swap graphics data for animated tiles, diagonal scrolling, and had a built-in interrupt counter for split screen effects

"Diagonal Scrolling" is Nintendo's Blast Processing.  It was PR-speak for something the base NES could do anyway.  I think they mentioned it just to promote Play Action Football.  Smoke and mirrors.

I agree with Arkhan.  Most mappers/MMCs just added (very useful) character graphic banking, PRG ROM banking, and an interrupt unit.  It's a mapper-- hence the name -- not a DSP.

SignOfZeta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8497
Re: Turbo Duo...What went wrong?
« Reply #93 on: April 08, 2012, 03:16:04 PM »
Quote
People should have known that the system would eventually be proven to be capable of non-flicker-based transparencies by a home brew coder exploring an undocumented feature 15 years after the system was dead (f*cking DUH!)


You should know now since examples have been given to more than once, that many published PCE games from bitd feature non-flicker transparency effects.


I'm a bit hazy about the exact details that previous "SignOfZeta hates PC Engine" witch hunt turned up, but in the end I thought we agreed that we have different opinions of what transparencies are, what flicker based transparencies are, etc. To me, the first system to do real transparencies, where you could just throw down a layer and change its opacity at will, numerically, with a hardware function, where slowdown would not f*ck up the effect because it wasn't based on an interlacing trick, was the SNES. The PS, SS were the next big ones to have it built in, although the CDI, Jag, and 3DO might have done it as well, I'm totally clueless about the capabilities of those systems.

The way the PCE does transparencies is the same way its done on Genesis, Neo Geo, and other 16 bit arcade hardware. The object is there, it isn't there, it is there, it isn't there, really fast like that, so that it appears half there. In other words, it flickers. Its not transparent like a clear piece of plastic of glass is transparent. When things are transparent in real life they aren't %50 opaque because the thing is only there %50 of the time and absent the other %50 of the time. They are %50 transparent because only %50 of the light actually travels though them. On PCE you can't really change how transparent an object is except by changing the rate of the flicker, and that really falls apart at certain levels. Ie: you can't have something with %5 opacity since that would mean having the object only appear in %5 of the frames which...really wouldn't work for shit...although it is done quite frequently, usually when a character dies and is meant to disappear. Of course you can also make things seem transparent via very careful pallet choices and dithering effects, but those aren't variable at all.


If the coder wanted to make the clouds slightly more opaque he could assign a different opacity factor. If the game slows down (which it certainly does, because its a SNES after all) there is no constantly changing flicker rate to f*ck up the effect. Its exactly that opaque all the time.

Like I said before, I'm sure you think this looks like shit, or that its unfair tackily made bullshit, it doesn't matter, but its an actual transparent layer, just like in Photoshop or, in the old days, cels painted with transparent paint, gels that go over spotlights, etc. The PCE doesn't do this, at least not in retail games. Its OK though. I DONT HATE THE PCE. I'm just saying that the SNES was the first system to do this, three years later. Not even the Neo Geo can do it.

Now that I think about it, the fact that I chose Kikikaikai is interesting. This game is on both PCE and SFC. The PCE version is much more like the arcade version, the SNES version is a hella hopped up remake. Most people who aren't super hardcore fanboys with lifelong devotions to specific companies would say that the SNES version is quite a bit fancier. There are many many reason this is the case, but it really does illustrate my point that the PCE does not appear as powerful as the SNES to most people. Most people don't care that the PCE version is several years older, wasn't that great of a port, and was never designed to be fancier than the arcade in the first place, etc, they just look at the stuff and judge the SFC port to be better. That's what they did in Japan of course, in the US Kikikaikai never came out for TG16 and nobody played the SNES version, they would have made other comparisons, but either way...that's what they did, world wide, and this is why the SNES is usually regarded as the "winner" of the 16-bit era. People in 1990 didn't know about all the in-depth analysis of system capabilities you and other people would provide years into the future. They could only see what they saw at the store, at the arcade, and at their friends house.

There is theory, and there is reality. In politics people will often go with theory, but when it comes to spending cash, they usually go with reality. The reality is that by 1992 people were buying SNES because when they saw the SNES, they liked what they saw. The OP asked, "What went wrong" with the Duo. Well, people didn't like what they saw. They saw the visuals as being from the past and the price as being from the future. Strictly speaking, that's exactly what it was. An architecture from 1987 and a price point that wouldn't become acceptable until 1995.

SignOfZeta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8497
Re: Turbo Duo...What went wrong?
« Reply #94 on: April 08, 2012, 03:18:35 PM »
"Diagonal Scrolling" is Nintendo's Blast Processing.  It was PR-speak for something the base NES could do anyway.  I think they mentioned it just to promote Play Action Football.  Smoke and mirrors.

Seriously? They actually used "diagonal scrolling" as a buzz word? I don't remember much of that. Blast Processing I do remember though. Sega pushed that really hard with Sonic 2.

Also, to be fair, "diagonal scrolling" does actually mean something. "Blast Processing" is something where I still don't even know what that's supposed to mean.

Arkhan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14142
  • Fuck Elmer.
    • Incessant Negativity Software
Re: Turbo Duo...What went wrong?
« Reply #95 on: April 08, 2012, 03:21:35 PM »
Even from a technical perspective, the TG16 is pretty much half way between the NES era and the SNES era. Technically, historically, chronologically, aesthetically. Have you ever played a SNES game as crude as Keith Courage or Energy? I haven't. I know, you like Keith Courage and Energy, thats fine, but seriously....JUST LOOK AT THOSE GAMES. Are they more like NES or more like SNES? Honestly. No bullshit. If you saw Blue Blink for the first time today would you assume it was for Neo Geo or CPS2 because of how insanely great the 16-bit visuals are?
Shaq Fu.
Pit Fighter
Home Improvement
Waynes World?
Bebe's Kids

Some of these came out so far into the life of the SNES that their shitness is inexcusable. There are more.  Terminator was pretty shitty, so was Revolution X. THe one Bubsy game was kind of retarded too.


Quote
Come on. Its OK to wall yourself off into your own little world. We all do it a little every day to stay sane. The problem comes when you fail to admit/understand that this is what you are doing. China Warrior is shite. It just is.

You are using hindsight and time-travel shenanigans to diss games.  I wonder if you were like this when the stuff was current.

I think you simply lack the ability to play old games in their proper context.  You probably hate Atari 2600 Asteroids because it flickers and you can play something better on your iPhone, right?

I play Hydlide for what it is and don't even bother comparing it to LoZ.  Comparing it would be dumb.  No shit LoZ is going to play better.  It's got more to work with.  Hydlide basically paved the way for all the action RPGs, not Zelda, not Ys.   Recognize.

China Warrior is the first game for the greatest console ever made.  Call it a tech demo, but it's got HUGE sprites, sweet music, and solid gameplay.  Nearly everyone who plays it and makes fun of it approaches it wrong.  It's a Gladiator style game.  Not a Streets of Rage style game.   Once you've realized this and approach it as a timing based game, you'd be surprised how much more fun you have with it.  

I bought that game and played it for the first time in 1999.  It was 7.95$  I played it for hours and hours and hours.  I had PS1, Genesis, Sega CD, Saturn, SNES, a Quake II capable PC, and other stuff I could have played too.  This did not stop me from having a kickass weekend affair with China Warrior until I beat the flying f*ck out of that drunk bastard.   What about it makes it shite, other than it not being Streets of Rage.


Energy is a port of a PC-88 game.  What the f*ck were you expecting?  For all of it's flaws it still isn't that bad.  It's campy enough that even if I paid full price for that game, I wouldn't hate it.  

I'm not in my own little world.

Actually, maybe I am.

However, this little world has everything.  I've got 2600, INTV2, C64, Apple II, NES, SMS, PCE, etc. etc.  

I play it all, and I like it all.  I play Akalabeth as much as I play Super Star Soldier.

I'll fire up Ultima V after playing CF2.   China Warrior followed by Alisia Dragoon.  

I just play games that I think are good.  It's not hard to recognize which games accomplished something great and paved the way for what you're pissing and moaning about.

Without Hydlide, I wonder if we'd have Ys like we have it now.
Without China Warrior, we may not even have the PCE as we know it today.  What if they made it with tinyass douche-sprites and people just brushed it off, and it flopped so bad people refused to buy it?  What if the massive sprites didn't excite developers and go OMG LOOK HOW BIG SHIT CAN BE ON THIS THING HOLY f*ck.  

You never know.  

EDIT: also, Diagonal Scrolling means one thing.

Isolated Warrior.

Game's f*ckin awesome.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 04:46:07 PM by Arkhan »
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

I'm a max level Forum Warrior.  I'm immortal.
If you're not ready to defend your claims, don't post em.

ccovell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2245
Re: Turbo Duo...What went wrong?
« Reply #96 on: April 08, 2012, 04:09:08 PM »
"Diagonal Scrolling" is Nintendo's Blast Processing.  It was PR-speak for something the base NES could do anyway.

Seriously? They actually used "diagonal scrolling" as a buzz word? I don't remember much of that. Blast Processing I do remember though. Sega pushed that really hard with Sonic 2.

Not as a buzz-word.  I'll correct my quote:

"Diagonal Scrolling" is Nintendo's Blast Processing in that it was PR-logic for something the base NES could do anyway.

rag-time4

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
Re: Turbo Duo...What went wrong?
« Reply #97 on: April 08, 2012, 05:11:17 PM »
I really wanted a Duo when I saw it for sale... I think of all place I saw it at Long's Drugs, now CVS pharmacy. I seemed to remember them having the SNES and Genesis as well. I never pushed my parents for one because I just didn't know enough about it to have any real interest.

I had some brief experience with the TurboGrafx-16 maybe 1-2 years prior, because my next door neighbors had one. I got to play Battle Royale, China Warrior, Bloody Volt, and Legendary Axe II. Of all those, Axe II stood out the most, and seemed a decent game. But action platformers werent the type of games that I got excited about back then. The two games I wanted most with the SNES were Super Mario World and Final Fantasy IV. I hated Battle Royale, thought China Warrior was incredibly stiff and unimpressive, saw Bloody Volt as a penniless man's Contra, and Axe II was decent but not enough.

My neighbors quickly got rid of their Turbo and got a Sega, and eventually a SNES as well.

The one game I was excited about as a kid on the Turbo, through the release of the Duo, was Fighting Street... but I kind of forgot about it as a kid because I was so impressed with some of the games on the SNES. I finally did buy a boxed Duo in 00/01 or so, along with Fighting Street, SideArms, and Keith Courage.

NightWolve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5277
Re: Turbo Duo...What went wrong?
« Reply #98 on: April 08, 2012, 05:35:48 PM »

Arkhan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14142
  • Fuck Elmer.
    • Incessant Negativity Software
Re: Turbo Duo...What went wrong?
« Reply #99 on: April 08, 2012, 06:25:55 PM »
whats funny that I just noticed is, I wasn't even really coherent while all this shit was goin down.

I only knew what a Turbob was because my aunt had one.   I didn't know what the f*ck a Duo was until I was like, 13, in 2001.

all my game info came from my relatives, who focused on Nintendo/Sega happenings more than anything.

[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

I'm a max level Forum Warrior.  I'm immortal.
If you're not ready to defend your claims, don't post em.

SignOfZeta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8497
Re: Turbo Duo...What went wrong?
« Reply #100 on: April 08, 2012, 08:55:43 PM »
Shaq Fu.
Pit Fighter
Home Improvement
Waynes World?
Bebe's Kids

I didn't say as bad, I said as crude. I meant technically crude. Like, obviously of a specific hardware generation. Shaq Fu might be a piece of shit, but its clearly a 16-bit game. While the sprites are puny, they have quite a bit of animation. Home Improvement is a much better game (than Shaq Fu) and even better looking (than Shaq Fu) and more "16-bit-ish".

Quote
You are using hindsight and time-travel shenanigans to diss games.  I wonder if you were like this when the stuff was current.
I think you simply lack the ability to play old games in their proper context. 

I admit you are much more of a connoisseur. You can find the sliver lining in old games that I can't, but for the most part I actually did play these games in the correct historical context. I'm turning 39 this year for f*ck's sake. I remember when there was a successful arcade every few blocks in this country and half the machines had b/w or vector monitors in them. I'm not trying to brag or anything, but in all seriousness kids born in the early 70s were in a unique situation to see, for the most part, what is so far the entire life cycle of video games and personal computers. The only shit that predates my experience is stuff that was so rare or so un-fun that it can't really be said to have been part of the cultural landscape.

Of course I didn't play every single thing in existence during that time period, so perhaps I am being unfair to Energy since I didn't play it for the first time until a few years ago....but I don't think I am. The thing really seems kind of sucky.

Quote
You probably hate Atari 2600 Asteroids because it flickers and you can play something better on your iPhone, right?

Honestly I've always thought the 2600 was a piece of shit. I spent my time in arcades and the 2600 had very few good arcade conversions. Between %90 of the games being zero fun beyond the first 5 minutes and the f*cking HORRIBLE joystick (I was a weak and sickly child...or perhaps just lazy) I always hated that system. I did like the Coleco a lot though, and I had the 2600 module for it so I actually did amass quite a huge collection of $1 2600 games from Kmart during the crash years...I just like Coleco games a lot more.

kazekirifx

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 545
Re: Turbo Duo...What went wrong?
« Reply #101 on: April 08, 2012, 09:21:25 PM »
Arkhan and Zeta, Somehow I agree with both of your opinions so much, though I'm not sure how that's possible.

Incidentally, I was born in 1980, so I am right between the generations the two of you grew up in. It was a great time to be born since I was just old enough to start playing video games when the NES was the thing. I vaguely remember playing 2600 at a friend's house, but never actually got one until just a few years ago. The 2600 is amusing to me, and I'm really not sure why people who grew up with it complained about the ports. It wasn't until the PS2 days that home technology really started to be fully on-par with the arcades. I find Pac-Man on 2600 to be quite playable. Who cares if the playfield is the wrong size, the pellets the wrong shape, Pac-Man isn't round, and the difficulty is all screwed up? It's still fun and playable. I also enjoyed E.T. after watching the old "how to play" video someone put up on youtube. It's far from the worst game ever in my opinion.

NightWolve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5277
Re: Turbo Duo...What went wrong?
« Reply #102 on: April 08, 2012, 09:59:47 PM »
I also enjoyed E.T. after watching the old "how to play" video someone put up on youtube. It's far from the worst game ever in my opinion.

Wait, no, you're kidding, right? I have a pseudo 2600 system ("Gemini," some sort of Atari 2600 knock-off) boxed away in my attic somewhere and I happen to have that piece of shit game, too! I don't even remember how it got into the collection (and I sure hope to God my dad didn't pay no $50 bucks for that shit, it was likely purchased for a couple bucks after the crash at some K-Mart perhaps), but hands down, that really is one of the WORST games EVER made!! IT IS! Almost all the games are garbage, except for a very few. The few I recall enjoying are River Raid, Megamania, (two shooters) Frogger, Pitfall 2 by Activision (ALMOST forgot that one!) and, eh, I can't think of anything else...which is either due to my bad memory or how much I think most of the games for that system sucked. ;)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 12:03:55 PM by NightWolve »

BigusSchmuck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3425
Re: Turbo Duo...What went wrong?
« Reply #103 on: April 09, 2012, 07:39:43 AM »
After reading through this thread, I suddenly don't feel old anymore. :P I'm glad this thread isn't going to a apple 2 vs commodore 64 argument, otherwise I think I would go insane.

Black Tiger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11242
Re: Turbo Duo...What went wrong?
« Reply #104 on: April 09, 2012, 08:16:25 AM »
Quote
"Diagonal Scrolling" is Nintendo's Blast Processing.  It was PR-speak for something the base NES could do anyway.

What did Johnny Turbo call Lords of Thunder on that PBS show? A "DVH shooter"?

Nintendo did do more bs phantom tech advertising than Sega. Their handy chart debunking the Genesis said that the SNES could run Sonic the same as the Genesis version, except that it could also scale up Sonic's sprite till you could make out every
individual whisker.

Ads for FFIII said that new blast processing/style techniques made it display all 256 colors at once in every screen or something. Ads for Killer Instinct said that even more advanced programming technology allowed it to display 512 colors per screen.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 08:33:49 AM by Black Tiger »
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/forum

Active and drama free PC Engine forum