Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?

[T2KFreeker]

But for the Turbo in particular it does seem most hucard games don't do too much with music. Someone mentioned Air Zonk and that's really the only game I know of where I feel the music is interesting.

There are some truly extraordinary hucard soundtracks.  Feel free to check out a website I recently put together to sample some of the goodness: http://turbomusic.risemedia.org.  I'd at LEAST check out Dragon Spirit, Soldier Blade, Devil's Crush, and Dungeon Explorer.  Also, I'll be adding another 15 or so soundtracks in the next couple of days.

/self-promoting-plug

Not to mention the soundtracks for Ninja Spirit and Legendary Axe II. Those games have awesome music.

[Tatsujin]

I love both, chip tunes and redbook, it always depends of how and where it is used.

GoT, WoT, Saphhire, Nexzr, Star parodia, Drac X etc. are so much awesomer because their redbook BGMs. I cound't imagine those games were such awesome if they had chip tunes instead.
As I said before, the PCE is quite unique of how it used the advantages of the CD-Rom medium at such an early stage. Even much later released systems still hadn't that same kind of usage and magic, as the pce had.

[NightWolve]

Lemme correct something right quick: I mistakenly said, "Dolby Surround 2.0" when that was totally wrong... It's technically Dolby Surround 4.0, but nobody really promotes or refers to it that way; it's referred to as "Dolby Pro Logic" and its successor is "Dolby Digital 5.1" (for that, they do use 5.1 at times). "Dolby Surround 2.0" implies 2 channels (2.0 wasn't a form of versioning), and you can ALREADY refer to a 2 channel set up as stereo... Duh!

I was under the impression that Roland Sound Space was just like...reverb. Its a two channel effect, and therefore not matrixed like Dolby Surround.

Hm, doesn't sound all that useful. Maybe Chris would care to comment if he notices this thread.

Dolby Surround actually hides four channels in the space of two. Its f*cking GENIUS as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't sound anywhere near as good as Dolby Digital or DTS, but it took a lot more brains to make it happen, it rolled out decades earlier, and its fully compatible with much older gear.

Yeah, it was a great idea that only got better. It might be getting a little excessive with DigitalPlus, though. Like I'm ever seriously gonna set up 13 speakers for 13 friggin' channels in my entertainment area! Come on, what the f*ck? Dolby TrueHD stops at 8 channels, and I guess 2 extra speakers in between the front pair and the rear pair isn't going overboard, but I do wonder just how much of an extra benefit that adds to the surround effect...

Regarding Wii and GC games with Dolby Surround (Dolby Surround II, in these cases): The systems themselves officially support the process, so you'd think the game makers would just be able to use the process without individual certification...doesn't that make sense? It seems like it would be this way. I don't know.

It kinda does, but I suppose Dolby wants to make licensing as lucrative as possible, so case-by-case basis would be more preferable. Then again, why are they not enforcing their licensing rights if companies are actually encoding sound using their techniques without authorization ?

As for hearing Dolby Surround-like effects come out of your system when it isn't officially there in the source: this is possible. Especially with the lots of reverb and stuff. It is certainly possible for the Pro Logic circuit to place certain things more in one channel than the other out of simple coincidence. Its also possible that it was put in there for real and they just skipped the certification. Also, if you were running in one of those special DSP modes like Hall, Concert, Jazz, whatever...anything can happen in those modes, especially on cheaper gear.

Well, check these videos out below and lemme know what you think! I really wanted to know if it was the case that they were using Dolby encoding techniques without a license so I did some investigating. It's just something that really caught my interest. So I said, what the hell, lemme do this myself because I doubt somebody else will. I took my SNES out of its box, got my FF IV (II) cart and Game Genie, plugged everything in and gave it a shot. Mind you, this SNES has been sitting in my attic for, I dunno, 17-18 years now (has it been that long?), along with all my games, so I didn't expect things to work right off the bat, let alone find any saved state support. The game loaded with the Game Genie, and lo and behold, I saw all 4 save slots with saved games! (THAT was a surprise cause I thought those CR2032 Lithium batteries last just about 10 years max!) But, the 4th slot would show a graphical glitch, so I turned the system off and tried to connect the game without the genie, but NOW it would NOT load at all, just a black screen! So I got rubbing alcohol and a q-tip to clean the contacts which made the q-tip mildly dark & dirty, so it needed it! Tried again, and presto, now it worked!

Anyhow, I wrote up more details in the first link, so that sets things up. Turns out that you didn't have to look far to find a surround effect: the opening theme music demonstrates one very nicely! I wish I could say something definitively here though, but my Dolby decoder/receiver is too old (my 2nd one burned out on me...). It's either very awesome with simulating surround effects when they're not present or a Dolby encoding technique was used, but I don't know for sure either way I'm afraid.

** Actual Dolby Pro Logic surround processing or simulated??

Example #1: - Opening theme music
Example #1: (HQ shorter version, & I up'ed the preamp levels; the center channel's use is more evident)

Example #2: - Final Boss Battle music

I could've definitely ruled out the use of DSP modes prior to the videos, I never liked them... The receiver has Stadium, Church, Dance, too, along with the rest that you listed, etc. but all of 'em always sucked to me. The only two modes that I liked and used were Dolby Surround and Theater and the only difference between the two is the equalization: Theater mode just loads a preset equalization emphasizing more bass, so better to watch DVD movies with, but the Dolby Pro Logic surround processing is still in effect.

It's probably similar to nostalgic feelings someone might have from hearing the sound of ...... or the noises associated with listening to a vinyl record.

Ah, say no more! That's probably the best possible equivalency to have made: vinyl records - even though the CD format brought perfect audio recording and playback, there are those that still love the classic sound of vinyl records and all the glorious imperfections associated with them! Heh-heh.

But, in the end, isn't it also the graphical and processing limitations of old gaming hardware and the nostalgic feelings associated with them that is one of the main reasons that old timers like me play retro games to begin with?

My nostalgia strictly stems from just remembering having had a good time with these games or with, say, special cases like Ys, the music and whatnot! I hate NES graphics, it feels like Atari 2600 to me now, and even though I had a good time with the system as a kid, I'd have to force myself to try to play something on the system now... Even PCE/SNES with very few exceptions... I appreciate them for what they offered at the time, and obviously still do at some level since I'm in a forum like this and the translation projects I did, but still, I find it difficult to play games of the past. I thought that with the ZSNES emulator I was gonna be busy for A LONG time when I discovered it in late ~2001, but all I ever played on it was Terranigma and Final Fantasy V (eh, maybe a handful of others); I tried to play SD3 with Neill's translation patch, but lost interest eventually. Anyways, it's all good, I can understand your feelings even if I don't quite share 'em.

[ccovell]

Hm, doesn't sound all that useful. Maybe Chris would care to comment if he notices this thread.

Nothing I can add since I don't know anything about channel multiplexing/demultiplexing.

Except that Super Turrican should be on that list of Dolby ProLogic-encoded SNES games.  They even put that feature in their ads.

[SignOfZeta]

I'm going to have to borrow a cart from a friend or something and try this on equipment I understand (my own shit, in other words).

Regarding terminology: Terms like 2.0 and 4.0 and 5.1 didn't come about until Dolby Digital 5.1. Any number smaller than 5.1 is retcon bullshit. Four channels matrixed into two is called Dolby Surround. This was the term used to describe the process when they developed it to work with the optical tracks on 35mm film. The same trick can be used on any semi-decent stereo recording. Pro Logic is the term that describes the circuit in a home receiver that decodes Dolby Surround. Pro Logic II is the same except five channels are hidden in the stereo and not four.

[NightWolve]

Nothing I can add since I don't know anything about channel multiplexing/demultiplexing.

No, about Roland Sound Space. You made this post in 2008 here:

http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?17404-PC-Engine-games-with-Dolby-Surround&p=298366&viewfull=1#post298366

Dracula X, Snatcher, and Gradius II, all on CD by Konami, use Roland Sound Space for some kind of [simulated] surround effect.

Zeta said that Roland Sound Space was just pretty much like reverb and what not. I thought you might know more details about RSS since you referred to it as a [simulated] surround effect, etc. That's all you knew about it, then? No biggie, thought I'd ask.

I'm going to have to borrow a cart from a friend or something and try this on equipment I understand (my own shit, in other words).

What would be nice is a receiver/decoder that actually somehow indicates what kind of audio signal that it's decoding, be it a) Dolby Surround (the first form was 3 channels apparently), b) Dolby Pro Logic, c) Dolby Digital 5.1, c) DTS, whatever. That's what's needed here... I dunno what you got, but I'm sure it can't be as old as mine! If you read some of my blurb, I had a more modern RCA unit with 5.1 support (optical input), but the damn thing burned out on me, so I had to go back to this ole Sony model that I bought in ~1996; it still works and I never got rid of it, so until I find a decent replacement and extra cash to burn, I'm stuck with it... Kinda cool though, it's still got a few tricks up its sleeve as you can see from the videos!

I can speculate why any type of surround sound support with the SNES (and all before it) would be news to many people... AV receiver/decoder units were way too expensive back then (what I use in the videos debuted at $549 though I got it for ~$400) so very few people likely owned one when the 16-bit era was in full swing! It was ~1996-97 by the time I bought my first one and now the 32-bit PS1 era was in full swing! The only reason I brought my SNES out of retirement was because I scored a copy of FF IV for $5 bucks from this resale shop that I used to hang out at (I beat the game years ago via rentals I believe)... I used to do VCR repairs for them: they'd buy broken VCRs for cheap, give 'em to me, and if I could fix them, I'd make a little chump change and they'd resell 'em. Once in a blue moon, they'd throw a good deal my way as a perk, etc. This time it was FF IV for cheap, and if not for that, I never would've gone back to the SNES and hooked it up to this new audio equipment that I had purchased with movie enjoyment in mind!

Pro Logic is the term that describes the circuit in a home receiver that decodes Dolby Surround.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Pro_Logic#Pro_Logic_vs._Dolby_Surround

Well, an attempt is made to deal with the confusion that Dolby caused with their terminology choices there. That's why I corrected myself. This part is of note, "Dolby Surround and Dolby Pro Logic decoders are similar in principle, as both use matrix technology to extract extra channels from stereo-encoded audio. However, Dolby Surround only decodes the rear surround channel, while Dolby Pro Logic also decodes the center channel." - They are using "Dolby Pro Logic" as a proper label for a 1987 improvement over "Dolby Surround [3.0]" allowing for 4 channels for the home setting instead of 3 (as was the case with "Dolby Surround"). I know what you're saying about the circuit though and you're right, there is a general usage of Dolby Surround if audio has been encoded with some form of it, etc.. Anyway, I'm just gonna go with the chart that they got on that link. I think I understand what happened, but it's still confusing somewhat.

[Black Tiger]

Although I never knew about FFIV's surround sound, I remember how mags bitd made a big deal out of Super Turrican's surround sound.

Super Darius also has surround sound. I assume that it's only for the music, since it wouldn't be much use for any of the sound effects. Dungeon Explorer would be a great game for surround sound. The original positions the sound effects across the left and right speakers depending on the horizontal position of what is making the sound. I don't remember if it is used for more than player's shots. Anyway, surround sound could be used to give the sound effects vertical positioning as well.

[Tatsujin]

all around surround sound.

[SignOfZeta]

Yeah, come to think of it, real Dolby Surround systems were pretty rare in 1992 or whenever this game came out. However, people in Japan will buy basically anything...

My main receiver is a Harmon Kardon AVR235. This isn't exactly brand new (2004) but it has several HK-exclusive settings that do as much or more with matrixed surround than any receiver since. The Logic 7 mode in particular does a freaking AMAZING job of making four channel DS sound nearly as good as DD. When listening to something like Mario Galaxy (made for Pro Logic 2) you'd swear it was DD. I was watching Gundam F91 the other day (the Final Version laserdisc) and what Logic 7 does with a four channel track is nothing short of amazing. Believe me, I'm no sucker for bullshit DSP modes, but this thing is for real.

However, no matter how fancy the receiver is, it can't tell if something is actually DS or not. Maybe some are clever enough to make a guess, but they won't always be right. When they invented this system you'd think they could have put some sort of flag in a sub signal to identify the signal type, but they didn't. The circuitry they used for DPL decoding 25 years ago was incredibly simple compared to the stuff we have now, like Logic 7. Also, the signal is pretty crammed already, so maybe they left it out for bandwidth considerations. Regardless, depending on what sort of signal is there, its quite possible, like I said, for a DPL decoder to separate things into channels based on shear coincidence. I bet this happens all the time with certain types of music that use some of the more interesting synthesizer sounds.

Watching the video you made with that display that shows exactly whats coming out of each speaker...it really really looks like this was intentional. It also looks like it works really well. And yeah, this would be Dolby Surround since that was the only form of Surround Sound that existed back then other than Quadraphonic (which was dead by then, but technically very similar).

As for RSS: This isn't really a video game thing. All the RSS parts are in the redbook music. Therefore, its not, strictly speaking, a video game related expertise question. The person to ask RSS would be anyone with a large collection of Roland keyboards and modules since they've been building it into stuff for ages. I think they still do. AFAIK, its basically the effect you get from those Hall, Cathedral, Jazz, whatever DSP settings on AV receivers. What it really means: the music in Drax was made by Roland keyboards, which is something we probably already knew.

[vestcoat]

Great posts, guys.

AFAIK, [RSS] is basically the effect you get from those Hall, Cathedral, Jazz, whatever DSP settings on AV receivers.

RSS attempts to create a 3D field with just stereo speakers by using subtle techniques like binaural recording, combfiltering, and processing slight changes in the L/R frequency response.  It's not terribly effective because all of this is generated by Roland gear or through extra processors in the audio mastering stage and there's no way to predict everyone's receiver model, speaker frequency response and configuration, room acoustics, listening position, head size, and hearing loss.  

DSPs on receivers will create a 3D field if surround speakers are present, but their main use to the simulate the characteristics of different environments.  Typically, this means hyping the mix with lots of artificial EQ, reverb, delay, and early reflections.  Cinemas are very dead acoustically, so "movie" is extra bassy with no reflections.  "Live" uses long reflections to simulate a large venue.  When used with surround sound, certain frequencies are prioritized in the rear speakers - my "jazz" setting seems to use the rear speakers almost exclusively for high frequencies with sharp transients (i.e. cymbals and snare); "live" uses the rear speakers for mostly just reverb and some mid-range sounds with a slow attack (applause).

Zeta - you probably already know most of this, but I wanted to clarify that RSS/DSP comparison a bit.

[Black Tiger]

Manuals for games using RSS tell you how to position your speakers and where to sit.

[kazekirifx]

Ys IV had the RSS logo too, didn't it?
I remember on that 'boring' slow track for the abandoned shrine (or whatever it is - you know which track I mean  :-" Please don't take issue with me calling it 'boring') there is one part in there where one sound gradually shifts from one channel to the other, and when wearing headphones it really feels like the sound is a blob going in one year, gradually making its way through your brain, and then coming out the other ear. Maybe this didn't have anything to do with RSS, but it was a cool stereo effect anyway.

[vestcoat]

Manuals for games using RSS tell you how to position your speakers and where to sit.

Oh cool.  I guess I've never seen an English manual for an RSS game.  Are there instructions online anywhere?  Are the speakers and listener just an equidistant triangle?

That's what it looks like in this demonstration video:
Youtube compresses audio terribly, but I do hear some 3D effects at 2:10 and 4:14
Does anyone know what the video game is at 4:49?  A vertical shooter on CD in 1991 in the UK?!?

[NightWolve]

Ys IV had the RSS logo too, didn't it?

Yeah, I just looked at my Ys IV case, it does have a RSS logo in the front. Never quite noticed it compared to Dracula X cause of the color choices between font v. background of the manuals... Well, vestcoat answered my question about it in FULL. That about covers that! And that RSS video you found was awesome! I figured it had to be a little bit more fancy than cheap stereo and/or reverb effects if publishers are going to the trouble of displaying a logo and likely paying a license fee for it.

I remember on that 'boring' slow track for the abandoned shrine (or whatever it is - you know which track I mean  :-" Please don't take issue with me calling it 'boring')

*shakes fist*

Why...you NO GOOD ROTTEN $#$!?!#!?!#@!... HOW DARE YOU! Hehe, don't worry man. I think I know what track you're referring to, and yeah, there are some boring ones on there I recall.

Concerning FF IV: I do wanna add that until someone can prove Dolby surround support with an A/V receiver/decoder unit that can detect what type of Dolby signal it's processing, if present, don't draw a firm conclusion from the FF IV sound tests in my videos... To borrow material from esteban, all they proved was that a, "truly immersive FF IV surround sound experience" is possible with basic Home Theater Systems given a stereo signal.

Zeta, here's why I'm unsure: Since the unit doesn't have an indicator of any kind, I wanted to be thorough and try other stereo signals to find a case where I would NOT get ANY surround effects while using the 1st Dolby Surround processing mode. So I tried music CDs and sure enough, EVERYTHING was enhanced with surround effects! I looked for the oldest CD I could find, still, awesome surround effects were exhibited! Then I said, OK, what happens with a mono signal? Let's see what it does then! So I got my VCR and an old VHS tape where I had recorded some NES games I had beat as a kid. So I hook it all up, the first game on the tape is Shadowgate, I rewind and let it play, and NOW the Sony unit finally refuses to produce surround effects: it's only powering the front 3 speakers, L/R equally, with an emphasis on the center speaker, but NO rear channel support! However, when I disconnect one RCA connector from the unit, let's say the right one and I leave the left one connected, the unit responds by playing the left channel AND the rear channel (hence you get output from both rear speakers), almost equally mind you, though... So it's like, a basic stereo effect whereby the Left channel is playing, but the Right channel is lowered, will cause a boost in the rear channel of the surround processing unit, etc. if that makes sense. So there's a basic decision the circuit is making right there to create a surround effect without any Dolby specific encoding technique... At least, so it would appear...

Anyway, I hijacked this thread enough about this, but I thought it was all very interesting. And I don't think I ever got to mention to anybody about the FF IV [simulated or not] surround sound effects I got to enjoy the last time I played it. Now there are videos! Hehe. It's no wonder that the FF IV soundtrack ranks as one of my favorites right alongside Ys Book I&II and III, etc. Long story short, Home Theater Systems are DEFINITELY worth it and they're a lot more affordable these days with packages that usually include all of the surround speakers with subwoofer!!!!

[SignOfZeta]

I'm going to track down some SNES carts and try this out. I'll start a new thread for it when I do.