Religion

[nodtveidt]

Ooh fun...a religious thread. These things bring out the a$$hole in me in ways you couldn't possibly imagine, so I'll try to keep it a bit civil this time.

I am a combination of many paths. To put a label on my personal views, you'd have to say I was an Atheist/Christian/Pagan/Neo-Satanist.

Atheist: I do not believe in a God whatsoever. I have no need for the spiritual safety blanket, nor the threat of godly vengeance.
Christian: Jesus was a very good teacher with a simple message: love, peace, righteousness, and justice. I try to live my life with these ideals.
Pagan: It is nature, not some divine being, that ultimately rules over us. Life is a continual cycle of birth, death, and rebirth. If we are kind to nature, it is kind to us...and vice versa.
Neo-Satanist: Respect yourself and those you love, but show no mercy for the a$$holes. Take responsibility for your own life and your own shortcomings, don't blame others for your faults. Never harm anyone unless they harm you or those you love. NEVER HARM A CHILD IN ANY WAY.

I was raised Roman Catholic. Bible study and Sundays chool were both things I grew up with. When I became 18 years old, I shed the dogma of Catholicism and started studying world religions. I've read a great number of holy books, and have come to the conclusion that although many of them are quite inspirational, just about all of them are complete BS when it all comes down to the facts. Even when I was growing up, I had an inquisitive mind, and I constantly questioned the Bible, which as you can imagine did nothing more than piss off the people who ran the Sunday school and Bible study sessions. If the book was so perfect, surely it could stand up to scrutiny, right? Wrong...it doesn't, and that's one of the many reasons I got away from the religion. The acts of the Popes have redoubled my opinion that I did the right thing in leaving Catholicism far behind.

I've studied no less than 100 religions in the 12 years I've dedicated to the task...from Santaria to Asatru to Islam to Wicca to Lutheranism to Shinto...I've tried to cover them all. I've documented countless parallels between world religions, making special studies of issues such as the "beginning of the world" and "the end of the world"...each religion has their own story to tell on the subject. However, what never ceases to amaze me is how much the core of Christianity has absorbed from other, much older religions. No other religion that is documented today is so heavily influenced by other religions. There are very few religions younger than Christianity, which didn't even become a major religion until about 360CE (Constantine made it the state religion of Rome, and it spread from there). Almost half of the religious concepts come from Judaism, many come from Egypt, and some come from scattered smaller religions that the Catholics labelled "pagan" ("pagan" means "country-dweller", a name given to these people by the Catholics), especially, as Paranoia Dragon has stated, major holidays. Only Orthodox Christianity and Roman Catholicism existed at the time. Skip ahead to the 16th century...a man named Martin Luther seceeded from the Catholic church, creating the first Protestant religion, Lutheranism. Other Protestant religions formed from that, and the rest is history. but what REALLY bothers me...it bothered me all throughout growing up and it bothers me now...is how SO MANY PEOPLE take the Bible seriously. About the only thing in the Bible to take seriously is the good things that Jesus taught...the rest is either complete bunk or a history lesson. Many modern-day Christians, however, seem to have an obsession with using the Bible as a weapon, picking and choosing convenient phrases from the book and ignoring the rest. This is especially bad amongst Catholics (I know, remember, this is how I was raised!). The ironic part is that for every point in the Bible, somewhere in the Bible there's a counterpoint. This makes it easy for any Christian to pull an argument from the Bible, claiming that their religion supports their viewpoint. For example: in the Old Testament, beating your child (even killing your child) is condoned. However, in the New Testament, Jesus clearly condemns it (depends on the version you read though...the NIV, for example, has a different wording on this subject). The deeper message of the "miracles" that Jesus performed has been destroyed, replaced with nonsensical mysticism that completely misses the mark. For example: when Jesus fed many hungry people from only a little food, it had nothing to do with him magically making more food and wine appear; he taught these many people how to share with each other, giving everyone a portion of the food. The deeper meaning of this is completely lost by the mystical ideal of him magically creating more food.

Now, getting down to some brass tacks here...as far as I'm concerned, there's only one religion out there that is complete BS, and that's Scientology. There are other religions with some screws loose (Wicca and Methodism, for example), but Scientology is missing more than screws...it's missing the whole engine. There's so much to tell about this, way more than I feel like writing out here. As for specific people...ALL Fundamentalists are COMPLETE morons, whether it be a Muslim, a Christian, a Buddhist, no matter...ALL fundamentalists are morons. Plain and simple. If you're a fundie, you're my enemy.

A few specific messages to followers of specific types of religions:

Christians: your Bible is not literal truth; don't take it as such, and don't try to push it onto those of us who don't want it. And besides...if it was, you'd be some of the sorriest-looking saps in the world...you'd be blind, limbless, and most of you would be dead!
Wiccans: your religion is based in theistic Satanism; stop trying to cover this fact up. Gardner was a complete idiot. We all know the routine: "We're not Satanists!" is the chant you like to use. No one accused you of it...when you make the chant of "We're not Satanists!", you draw attention to the idea that hey, maybe you ARE!
Neo-Satanists: stop trying to be dark, gloomy psuedo-intellectuals. Your religion (although it's not really a religion, more of a philosophy) is all about having FUN in your lives...start doing it!
Atheists: although not a religion, many of you handle it like it is. Knock it the f*ck off. A rabid Atheist promoting Atheism is no different than a rabid Christian promoting Christianity or a rabid Wiccan promoting Wicca. Some people NEED religion...feel lucky you do not.

And a final note to anyone who supports this ID movement...keep in mind that ID has zero scientific evidence whatsoever. Evolution is accepted scientific fact, and although scientists have disagreements about specific species and other details, the core concept as a whole has been accepted fact for decades now. If you want ID to be taught, great...teach it in your Philosophy classes where it belongs. ID is NOT SCIENCE and NEVER WILL BE.

Okay, that's enough from me for now. We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum already in progress.

[ParanoiaDragon]

Alright, that's it, let's duke it out   Anyways, in my opinion, I see nothing but 100% fact of ID, it's obvious, & it's everywhere.  But from your viewpoint, you see evolution as 100% fact, & being obvious & everywhere.  And anytime anyone's tried to say one scripture ends up contradicting another, has never been able to prove it to me, with all the different scriptures, different people view them in different ways, like in the Hebrew scriptures, it deffinitly doesn't say to beat or even kill your child, I'm not even sure which version, out of the millions of different Bibles out there, that you read that.  One thing I do agree with you on, is that there is sooooooo much in the Christian religions, that takes stuff from "pagan" religions, like the worship of the saints, & Mary, all pagan stuff.  Christmas, originaly a pagan holiday, Jesus wasn't even born in December, more like October or September, since the shepards were out with there flock at the time......not exactly something they'd be doing, in that area of the world, in December   There's plenty of pagan stuff in Christendom, & it's sad, that's why I avoid Christendom, but I also don't like going around telling everybody, hey, you better stop doing such & such, because it's pagan.  Besides that fact that people believe what they want, & it's not my job to tell them they're wrong.  When we go door to door, if they want to listen, great, if not, that's there choice.  If the subject comes up, I might get into it.  I don't want to make things worse for a person by just blurting out, hey, that's pagan!  Anyways, it's all good, we all have our own views on life, that we each believe to be 100% fact.

[Michael Helgeson]

nodtveidt
completelly agree with you here.Cant stand the crowd of people who say they are athiest just to make a statement.I feel most religions are designed to convert,and take away the individualness of the person,and to retain some kind of control over something or someone,if not the group of worshippers themselves.
Religion is just a tool for conformist.Conformist breed in weakness.
I also dont worry wether there is something waiting there for me when Im dead.I dont have that fear of where I will be going,and dont really think Ill be going anywhere.I think I will be dead.Im just fine with that.The idea of eternal life scares me for that matter.

[GUTS]

I love you guys who shit all over religious people like they're sheep or stupid or something.  Did you know that even f*cking Einstein believed in God?  Choosing to reject religion is just as narrow minded and sheeplike as accepting it.

[nodtveidt]

Well, I most certainly don't shit on people who follow a religion. Religion serves its purpose for many people. Imagine what kind of world we'd live in if no one had fear of Hell...murderous rampages, anyone? Religion has its advantages too...imagine, if you will, a 75 year old woman who just lost her husband of 55 years. She believes that she will see him again in Heaven, and that comforts her. Who are you to go up to her and tell her that she's wrong and a fool? Let her enjoy the last shreds of comfort she might have! In cases like this, religion can be a very useful tool. However, I am the kind of person who will challenge most anything, and religion happens to be a VERY large target.

PD, one thing I've never been able to understand is why "pagan" traditions are "bad". I've asked this of a great number of people and have never gotten a response beyond one of two things: "The Bible says it's bad!" or "It's just bad mmmkay?". The way I see that kind of thing, it's similar to saying "don't hang out with that guy, he's black". It just bothers me, because it's prejudice. Also, it would not be possible to "prove" to you that Scriptures contradict each other, since you are predisposed to believing the Bible over everything else, so such an effort is wasted and you can "explain it away"...just as I can "explain away" an opposing viewpoint.

Some history for y'all...Christmas itself is a Christian holiday. The pagan holiday is Yule (winter solstice), and is celebrated 3 to 4 days earlier. But that's not all...December 25th was used because it was also used in Egypt as the birthday of Horus. In order to shut out the stories of Horus, they needed to move Jesus' birthday to December 25th (this was also done to fit the prophecies). The Christmas Tree is a derivation of the Yule Tree and was first adapted by the Germans in the 16th century, iirc (in the Bible, there's a passage about greenery being kept inside the home as being forbidden, because it was pagan). Easter, a Christian holiday, is celebrated exactly one week after Eostre, the spring equinox. Halloween is the one a lot of people get "spooked" about. Originally called Samhain, this was a day of reflection on the past, as it was the last day of the calendar year. It was a day to celebrate the lives of those who had passed on from this world. In some cultures, they believed the spirits of children roamed the lands, playing tricks on people. To satisfy the childrens' spirits, people would put an offering of sweets on their doorstep. This is where the "trick or treat" tradition comes from. Wearing costumes was part of great shows the ancient people put on as a show of respect for their deceased loved ones. Ironically, early Christians perverted this ritual, claiming that demons walked the earth on Samhain, and that by dressing as a demon yourself, they would leave you alone. It's no wonder this turned into "the devil's holiday".

GUTS: Choosing to reject religion isn't narrow-minded. One's personal beliefs are not your place to judge, nor can they be compared to others. A great number of scientists throughout history have been religious, and have studied to figure out "God's world and how it works". The concepts are not incompatible whatsoever, even if the frothing Atheists believe they are. Just because Einstein was religious doesn't mean he was right...all we know is that he's dead now, and that's scientific fact.

[Keranu]

Nice points, Nod. I'm not an athiest and I even agree with your points. I never understood that "Pagan is bad" thing either.

[ParanoiaDragon]

I don't know if I would put it as "Pagan is bad", rather, more like, it's not a Christian belief, or whatever.  That's like saying Budhism is bad, no, it's not bad, it's just not in line with Christian beliefs.  I'd say more that worshipping Satan & sacrifing children is bad.  But Pagan isn't bad in itself, atleast, that's my view.

[nodtveidt]

I've yet to meet anyone who actually worships Satan or sacrifices children...hehehe. Wait though...which Satan are you referring to? My guess is the devil...anyone who "devil worships" is a moron and cannot be called a Satanist, because that's not what they are. True Satanists are probably among the nicest people you'll ever meet. Although rumours abound left and right of them offering up children as sacrifice to Satan, this is complete and utter bullshit and is actually completely against their philosophies (it's #9 in the Eleven Rules Of The Earth, a good link can be found here, more direct information on the religion itself can be found here). But PD, remember...virtually none of the Christian beliefs are actually Christian...they come from a wide variety of old religions. Close to 50% of Christianity is actually Judaism, with the rest scattered amongst other religions, even stuff as far back as the Sumerians. Like most newer religions, it's a mutt.

Anyways, stuff like this always brings out a very interesting point: it is clearly not the differences of others that brings them together in one place, it's the similarities that bring them together. For us all, it's the love of the PCE. Keranu and I spoke of this earlier tonight on IRC...all of us in our group are from very different spiritual backgrounds...yet when it comes down to putting together a game, we simply put these differences aside and work towards that common goal. Why? Because religion doesn't matter when it comes to creating something that people will enjoy.

[Michael Helgeson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformist


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformity_%28psychology%29

I dont go out of my way Guts to step on peoples beliefs,I usually just keep my views on it to myself unless asked,which is basically what I thought this was for here.Basically a tossing of ideas and why we like them or back them.At any rate...
I work as a RA/CNA.The majority of people I help take care of are older,late 60-80ies.They get confort from believing there is a God,and Heaven,and what not.If thats what they need then thats fine.There is a comfort factor there that offers them what they need at this stage in their lives.Id rather have them find comfort in believeing in heaven and not being so scared about passing away then to worry till they die.
Some people need to believe in certain things to die peacfully,and to accept their time.Some,no matter what,simply can not.
I guess you can say it sjust a simple lack of faith,or whatever.I just simply choose to not believe in things like gods,or heavens and hells.I do not go around bragging it,or that I am a athiest.I dont go knocking people for their religions.Its their right.
But Im also against peer pressure,conformist,the Union,ect....lol
I have been to many churchs in my youth,as I woul dgo with  a family member while he was soul serching,trying to find the right church,the place he needed to find to fit in.I went because he was my cousin,and was liek a big brother.But everytime we went to this church or that,I knew right away I didnt fit in,even at a early age,8 or 9.It just was not for me.Even at that age I didnt share the same views,just didnt feel the same way about the good book,and noticed the way people behaved,and I didnt like it.It held true for whatever church,baptist,penticostile,ect.
When I wa smarried to my ex-wife,he rparents,both JWs,invited me to their Kingdom Hall.I went and experienced what some people call the "love bomb" as I was quickly jumped by everyone.I got the feeling it was overly friendly,and by the forth time of going there,when I think they realized I was just going to be polite to my ex inlaws,they no longer were very"loving and warm" people.They realized I was not  a easy convert,and gave me the cold sholder.My ex mothe rin law and I still get along well,esp now,with her daughter running off and ditching the kids,and getting hooked on meth,and doing other things I wont mettion here,I think she has been able to look past the fact that I dont care for religion,for god or whatever,and that not believing in her religion has no impact on how I care for my children,or taht it makes me less of a parent.I think it affected her pride a bit,and my ex father in law espically,to see their daughter,raised in this religion,sink so low,and to see me,who was rasied by a single parent,in  a non-religious home,who is a non-believer of god,do so well in life and with my children.Im a good person,and I have morals.Im not perfect,I dont always do the right thing,espically when there is something like personal gain at stake,but I know enough of what right or wrong means,and I didnt need religion to teach me this.Im my own person,and I perfer to stand on my own,without the aid of others.Thats just the person I am.

[Michael Helgeson]

There is one group of people I really like,christian wise however.I may be misprouncing it here,but I think its called the "iglo ni christo"?
Basically they believe in worshipping God using the bible,and not a church,and dont feel the need to have a huge social flock to be able to do this efectivly.They dont need a church,and believe that the body of christ is made up of its members,the individuals,christ,and that the common goal is to worship god.When they do get together,its usually in the home,and they talk about things.I worked with a few when I did security.
Out of any religious types I have met,or talked with,I was most impressed with them.They didnt try to convert,say I was wrong,go on a mission to save me from hell or anything.

[nodtveidt]

I have a strong dislike of people who try to "convert" me or "save my soul". In the past, I dealt with these people very harshly...I have a flail made of spanish steel that looks extremely vicious, and I would carry it with me to the door when they showed up at my doorstep. They'd start in on their "we can save your soul" speech, and when they came up for air, I'd say something similar to "You say you can save me, but who's going to save YOU?" and that's when the weapon would come out. One look at the barbaric thing in my hand and they were GONE. Took five groups of these people getting this kind of repulsion before they all got the hint and left us the hell alone. Cruel? Yes, of course...so why did I do it? Because I could...Rule #4 of the Eleven Rules Of The Earth states "If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy". So I did. Of course, times have changed now...I'd never do that nowadays, I'd simply tell them "I'm not interested" and shut the door. But things were different back then...although I still have a strong dislike of people who try to convert others or "save their soul". People have to find their own path in life or they will be weak their whole life.

The events I described here happened after a group of Christians made a very intentional attempt on my life because I was an admitted Pagan. Needless to say...I didn't exactly feel a lot of like for Christians for a looooooooong time after that...

[ParanoiaDragon]

Love Bomb?  That's a new one  I can speak from experience & say that every congregation in every Kingdom Hall is different.  Mine is pretty friendly, but they don't seem to bombard people.  I know I wouldn't want to be bombarded.  I'm personally not the type of person to just go up to someone visiting the Kingdom Hall & introduce myself, I'm way too shy for that kind of thing, & like I mentioned earlier, I've seen people try to become Witnesses for a girl, or whatever, so, it's always hard for me to be too openhanded.  But, I've seen people that have visited, that have been impressed, that ones come up to them, & welcome them, despite their race, dress, demeanor, etc.  But, in all my years, I've also seen people get the wrong idea about how people were treating them, including ones that were raised as JW's that felt other JW's looked down upon them.  I myself have a tendancy to think people don't like me, but I always somehow these days, "try" to shrug it off.  

And, yeah it's hard when you raise your child a certain way, & they end up messed up, I've seen that a million times.  I feel there's a balance to how you raise a child, no matter what your religion.  But even then, there's also the influence of other's they meet thruout their life that also make a difference, so 2 children, raised by the same people, the same way, end up being totally different.  If those people treated you coldly, I'm sorry about that, that's not right.  

As for converting, we don't exactly go out directly to do that, it's still a person's choice whatever they want to believe.  We are out to preach the good news of God's Kingdom first & foremost.  We go by 2 main scriptures.  Mathew 24:14(which is a prophecy)This good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth, for a witness to all the nations, & then the end will come.  And Mathew 28:19 & 20(which is a command)Go therefore & make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, the son, & the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.  And look!  I am with you until the conclusion of the system of things.  So, the scripture doesn't say go therefore & force your beliefs upon others, but it does say to make disciples, so we all try to follow that commanment, & bring the message of God's Kingdom to others.  As for "soul saving" I don't think that was a Witness, since people that say that, seem to be speaking about an immortal soul, which we don't believe in.

As for Christianity, we were Jews in the time of the Hebrew scritptures, but Jesus saw how corrupt the Pharisee's & Saducee's were, & some became Christians, & some stayed Jew's, so, yeah, I know about that.

BTW, Nod, have I ever tried to convert you   Nope, I may state my beliefs, but, I don't try to force my opinion....atleast, I don't think I do :   And, actually, I'm not sure about other religions, but, with all the Witnesses I know, we're really dirverse.  We all have our own tastes in music(though some music is advised against like rap because of reputations that some music has for raunchy lyrics, but they don't say DO NOT LISTEN TO IT.......speaking of which, I've been listening to hip hop since I was a wee lad.....but not the stuff on the radio, I'm an indie/underground head), different tastes in movies(R-rated are advised against, which is understandable, but there are a few I watch, like Office Space, but don't tell anyone, K ), hobbies(like video games, though, I only know 1 or 2, that are into it like me ), etc.  So, we deffinitly have individuality.  It seems, & correct me if I'm wrong, that other religions have their own music that they make them listen to(like all those infomercials).  I guess maybe they're not forced, but, it just seems like that's all they listen to, is Christian music......which we don't listen to at all!  We do have our own songs that we sing at the begining, middle, & end of a meeting, as I'm sure you know, but, you won't see us in a tricked out Christianmobile bumping Kingdom Melodies.  And that's not to say I never listen to them in my car, I do, but it's just different.  I'm not sure how else to explain it.

Oh, & we do put emphasis on being together to discuss the scriptures, & we also do our own research as individuals.  But, I feel it is important to be together with ones with the same beliefs, especially when this world can become so tiring.

[GUTS]

Holy shit, did that guy just say that he used to pull a FLAIL on mormons and that a group of christians tried to assassinate him?  HAHAHA!  As bullshit made-up stories go, that's actually pretty funny.  I can just picture a bunch of christians sitting around their church-

"This flail toting pagan guy and his 11 rules of the earth are really throwing a monkey wrench in our plans!  Word on the street is that he is secretly writing a 12th rule and forging and even BIGGER flail as we speak, you all realize of course that this means war!"

"You mean like a holy war against the satanic forces he's martialing against us?"

"No I mean we just straight up kill him, f*ck all that 'thou shalt not murder' shit!"

HAHAHAHA awesome.

[nodtveidt]

Nope PD, you've never tried to convert me.

GUTS, I'm glad you find my life so amusing.

[Michael Helgeson]

The problem I see with this PD is that you admit to being a individual in your group,but the things you list as doing that make you unique you seem to have to hide from the others in your group,if not all,some at least,which makes you complies to the comformist.You cant openly admit you watch these movies,listen to this music,blah blahblah blah.Do you,ok let me rephrase this,as I do not know wether you actually play this or not,watch this or that,but lets say you do play Doom 3,Quake 4,Narc,GTA 3- San Andreas,watch Natural Born Killers,Office Space,the Damn Show,Vampire Hunter D,IWA Death Matches,listen to your hip hop, and what not.If you admited to doing these things,did not hide them,do you think youd be eligible to be a Elder in your congergation?Do you think youd be embrased for being a individual? Even though your this really great guy,devoted husband,wonderful father,never un-employed,taking care of the family,and what not,lets say you did all the above,thi swould def make you unique,and not fitting into the status quo.Do you think they would embrase you as a individual if you openly admited to doing all these things? I dont think so.Actually,as you said,you pretty much have to hide your lifestyle from them so that you can fit in.
To me a great religion,and group to be apart of would be where your were not looked down on for these little things,scolded,not allowed to speak,defelowshipped,or anything involving a form of isolation,worried about being singled out,ect,but instead praised/embrased for all the good/great/wonderful qualities you exhibit as a human being,as a father,husband,worker,person in general.
To me,if this was the main concern in the group,religion,church,whatever,it would strengthen,and prosper far better.