Religion

[ParanoiaDragon]

Yeah, believe me, it's annoying.  At the very end of Revelation, is specifically states not to add nor take away from the Bible(certain extra-biblical books come to mind...but I will not name names), but some so-called scholars have been called out on adding there own stuff to the Bible itself.  Really, it's hard to know if there's any translator who's not even slightly biased one way or another.  And then even with any translation, like the NWT, some who aren't Jehovah's Witnesses will give it big props for sticking close to the oldest surviving texts, & call it one of the most accurate(though quite dry) Bible's, but then others will say they took liberties when making the NWT(ie:supposedly changing scriptures that support the trinity, imortal soul, hellfire, etc.). 

So who can be believed?  I won't say it's not difficult, cuz it is.  I tend to be a conspiracy theorist, so I have a hard time trusting anything anyone says.  Just the whole JFK fiasco makes me wary of who's really in control of the information we recieve.  I do consider it a matter of prayer though, & the Bible says there would be a great apostacy, false christs, etc.  And there deffinitly has been thruout the centuries.  Just with the various atrocities done in the name of God we can all see people who claim to be followers of Christ, but are nothing like him.  Same goes for anyone who changes the scriptures. 

For instance, most Bibles nowaday don't have even a hint of God's name in it, even though the Bible clearly says that his name is important.  Is his name "the Lord", is it just...."God", is it Elohim or Abba?  Those are all just titles, not names.  It's a conspiracy I tell'z ya, a CONSPIRACY!   Seriously though, I do believe(even though I'm sure it sounds like nonsense) that's it the Devil guiding people to make translations that are inaccurate, so it's nigh impossible to even know which one is.  Thankfully, some of the stuff that monks & such added over the centuries, have been found out, & are removed from modern day Bibles, which is why you'll see some scriptures that are blank.

[sunteam_paul]

How do believers know what the Bible actually is? Translation aside, there's all those other gospels that the church have decided at some point will not be included. Should those be taken into account? And if not, should some that are already in there also be discarded? It's a whole spaghetti mess.

You believe the devil is guiding people to make bad translations? Well what if it was the devil himself that wrote/inspired the Bible? It certainly seems the most effective way to make people fight and kill each other, not to mention the really nasty stuff in the OT (Satan obviously got wise for the NT and toned it down so the intolerance was a lot more subtle). How's that for a conspiracy theory? 

I think it's a good sign that you arern't just taking things at face value like many believers do, even if I don't exactly share your conclusions. I think you'd find it quite interesting to do more 'research' into critical thinking/skepticism. It might blow away some of your sacred cows, but it's quite enlightening. (A great podcast that deals soley with religion is Reasonable Doubts, check it out if you have some spare time).

[ParanoiaDragon]

Yeah, I've thought about those very same things many times, that maybe the Devil wrote it, or maybe God is just evil & is screwing around with people, but I've seen the good the Bible's done personally in my own life, & in others I know that don't go around harming others.  My dad became a believer on the old 17th century King James version, even with any error's in it, he was able to figure out what made sense to him. I'm inclined to believe, even from a terrible translation, that people can learn alot of basic things, but even in those things, plenty of it can get misused.

Oh, as for those other books added to the Bible, there deffinitly seems to be things in those books that seem totally off.  I can't attest to this personally, but many books like the Maccabee's, Judas, Mary, etc. don't have, as some would say, the ring of truth or canonicity.  There's also the Jewish Targum's I've heard about.  All of these books may actually have some things that are true, but scholar's can't find a way to include them in the Bible.  This, like so many things, is something I still need to do more research on though.

I do believe that religion as a whole will be destroyed eventually(hopefully in my lifetime), & that should lead eventually into Armageddon, though, if I'm right remains to be seen.  If it happens, it'll be scary for someone like me, but I hope I hang in there & make it thru the alleged Armageddon.

[rag-time4]

I see Noah and the flood story were mentioned a few pages back... One of the things most memorable to me about Noah is that the Bible says he lived to be 950 years old.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on it paranoia d?

scripture link

[sunteam_paul]

I see Noah and the flood story were mentioned a few pages back... One of the things most memorable to me about Noah is that the Bible says he lived to be 950 years old.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on it paranoia d?

scripture link

For your interest, here's a timeline of the bible flood comparted to real historical events:

[ParanoiaDragon]

I see Noah and the flood story were mentioned a few pages back... One of the things most memorable to me about Noah is that the Bible says he lived to be 950 years old.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on it paranoia d?

scripture link

At this time, I'm inclined to believe that the ages of ancient people is real, which is one of the reasons why I'm inclined to think that we may be in a sense, devolving, for lack of a better word.  However, it's always possible that there's something that's not currently understood in the Bible timeline.

Actually, seeing Stone Henge in there reminds me of something.  I just went to Stone Henge in January, & something I found to be odd, was that the information on the tours given there, seems to conflict with information given on the pedia's.  The main thing I recall from the tour, was that people seemed to disapear from the area all of a sudden somewhere about 4500 years ago, & the place was then rediscovered about 1000 years after that.  That's right around the time of the alleged flood.  Both my wife & I believe that it may predate the flood, & maybe was built by the nephilim.  There's no evidence to support it, it's just a theory of ours.   It ma seem ridiculous, but, those stones are sunken well into the ground, & there's no seismic activity in the area.  Hard to know though how much or little of the ground was surrounding the stones way back then.  The stones themseleves may have been much bigger then how they are now, given erosion.

 But, either way, I've been given conflicting non-biblical information, so that makes me wary of who to believe in regards to archeological history.  And even then, how trustworthy are the various methods of dating things?  Sure, it's nice when something seems to match up with Biblical history, but, either way, I'm sure every & all methods of dating are still fallible.  The carbon dating method is one I think of.  What if there was something cataclysmic that we don't know about that totally changed the amount of carbon in the atmosphere?  Wouldn't that give a false reading?  If there was some sort of waterband surrounding the earth, (making it so that there was light, but the sun & stars weren't clearly visable I would assume) it fell creating not only tremendous rain, but also froze the poles(an ice age, freezing mammoths with food still in their mouths, that still boggle's me) & changed the earth from maybe from tropical to the various zones we have today.  It would seem like something like that would have a big effect of the carbon, among other things, however, I'm no scientist, nor the inventor of that dating process, so, my knowledge is limited in that regard.  But it's all still something I think about.  

Without a time machine, there's really no way for anyone on any side to prove anything about time, other then maybe more recent history, even then, there can be error's.  Not to mention, all societies have changed their own recorded history. IIRC, Egypt has been specifically known to change their own records of atleast defeats in history.  So, what if those who came up with these timelines, as well as the processes to figure out the timelines are wrong.  It's not like we don't find out from time to time that they were wrong about something, just as anybody else, can be wrong.  Maybe in 100 years, recorded history with all it's dates that we have, could be completely off, there's just no way to know, which is frusterating to me.  I want the truth, & that's all.  

I feel like, or atleast I hope, someday, even if it's past my time, we'll all have the historical truth, no matter what it is, even if it doesn't line up at all with Biblical history.  But I say hope, only because, we're still dealing with humans, who make mistakes, that's just life, we all do it.  And if time travel were possible, that could really screw up time, so, I hope it's not possible, but that seems like the only way to find out things for sure.  I've often wondered if our current view of what dinosaurs looked like with skin & all is totally different from how they were for real.  What if none of them were actually carnivore's, what if there was a different reason for some having the sharper teeth(I'm not saying there weren't carnivore's, but it's something that's crossed my mind)?

So I guess, human error really bothers me & makes me wary of what to believe.  The Bible, at this time, still makes sense to me, if only for the changes in my own personal life that I've seen.  I won't get into all my personal life issue's, but, I have plenty.  But I've made biblical changes that have improved my personality among many other things.  So, I guess at that point, it boils down to faith in something that's helped me personally be a better person.  I'm tempted to say more, but I just don't want to get into a bunch of my personal life crap.  

Plus, with stuff like the earth being called a sphere in a time(assuming the dating of the scriptures is correct) when people did not believe it was, or like Nod said, back in those days, people believed sickness came from demon possession or whatever, but the Israelites were to be extremely clean, taking a dump outside of the camp, covering it with dust, not eating certain animals during a time when they were nomads & probably didn't have a decent way of getting rid of certain bacteria that would make them sick(atleast, that's what I get out of it).  These things don't seem like normal human knowledge for back in those days(once again, assuming the Bible was written when it says it was written).  And then there's prophecies that to me, seem to add up with known history.  But, I'm sure by most people, it'd be considered ridiculous, but it all seems clear as day to me.  However, I could be wrong about prophecies.  Even ones that were to have happened already.

For instance, to paraphrase, I believe the "beast that was, but wasn't, but now is", was the Leagues of Nations, which disbanded IIRC when WW2 started, but then came back as the United Nations, & that that beast is going to turn on the harlot, which I believe is false religion that's been having relations with the nations, getting involved in polotics, taking advantage of people, etc.  And then whichever people is correct, will still be around, as it says that the beast will turn to God's people, but it will be like touching his eyeball, as in, he'd react immediately at that point, bringing on the great tribulation.  Ofcoarse, all of that probably falls into the "magic" category, but, it's what I believe at this time. So, at this time, I don't consider it unreasonable to believe that there is an intelligence of some kind well beyond humans.

[rag-time4]

I see Noah and the flood story were mentioned a few pages back... One of the things most memorable to me about Noah is that the Bible says he lived to be 950 years old.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on it paranoia d?

scripture link

At this time, I'm inclined to believe that the ages of ancient people is real, which is one of the reasons why I'm inclined to think that we may be in a sense, devolving, for lack of a better word.  However, it's always possible that there's something that's not currently understood in the Bible timeline.

Paranoia d, i agree; I also believe that the 900+ year lifespan of Noah, Methuselah, and Adam are true in the Bible. However, I think that it is society that has devolved. I think that it comes down to Noah et al eating way less food and much better quality food in terms of nutrition and purity. Today I think people tend to eat way too often and eat for pleasure rather than strictly for nutrition. Also, they all likely had very healthy spiritual and emotional lives as well.

[ParanoiaDragon]

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree, but I do think it might be possible they were genetically superior to us as well. Since corrution was inherited from Adam & Eve, I think it may be a gradual process that passes it on little by little over the generations.  Not that I have any proof, it's just something I ponder about. Ofcoarse, they don't have things like polution & chemicals in their food like we have today.  Let's face it, 99.9% of the food we have available to day has something wrong with it.  They may have eaten less, I suppose that's a possibility.  By Roman times, the Romans themselves supposedly would eat for pleasure, making themselves throw up just to eat more food.

[ceti alpha]

Here are the passages for those interested in clarification:

  28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

    29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

I think it's mostly because once a woman is 'violated', she is worth less in monetary terms (in those days in that area), so she is forced to marry her rapist and her father is compensated.

Rapists get off lightly compared to adulterers though:

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her,

    24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death— the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

    25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.

That's some twisted logic right there.

Well then, it's a good thing we have the Bible to make sure we behave morally.

[sunteam_paul]

Yes, people who go on about how it's a moral guide really need to read the book first.

[BlueBMW]

Well then, it's a good thing we have the Bible to make sure we behave morally.

Good to see you are still around Ceti!  Hadnt seen you in a while!

[RegalSin]

I did not read through the whole form but I believe religion is a scapegoat for ways of
life that reinforces our virtues ( I think that sounds right ). One half of Religion is spiritual, and was past down to generation and generation to learn from our mistakes, and while their is lies and truths mixed, they were created for us to live highly. Most laws are surrounded by Religious beliefs.

When the pilgrooms visited India they felt the people were immoral, because of the Yanksee statues carved on the many Buddist, and Hindu temples ( if that is correct ).
The Yakshees were all examples of fertility, and it was something that could be shared.

The other-side of Religion is control, and only control. A means to weaken peoples mind, so they can be submissive to society demands. So basically it is a protection
for the wrong doers as well. In "Rome" AKA the European Empire, it was mismanaged, and after eruptions of volcano's that led to the black plague/dark ages, they converted to Christianity. However that was also corrupted. They had this big empire, and not enough people, who was able to be loyal enough to the empire. The same could be said for modern day China, and WWII Germania. Even USA, and
the Common Wealth are examples of nations that are too spread out for control.
So with religion they weaken the hearts of the citizens giving them relief from the pain or worry of battle.

[thesteve]

wow, i never thought i'd say it, but well said regal

[nodtveidt]

Holy necropost Batman

And... yeah, it's strange, but RegalSin is right... for the most part.

[ceti alpha]

Holy necropost Batman

That's how I roll!