Have you LOST any auctions lately?

[grimm]

Sniping still works to a point in an extend-an-auction setup.  You may slip a winning bid in on something and the other bidder might not notice theyve been outbid.  Ive had this happen on a few yahoo jp auctions.

The problem with that reasoning though is that snipers do notice. Thats the whole idea behind sniping, to pay attention and be the last one in with a bid.

[SamIAm]

But the way real auctions work is not possible on the internet. You need to have it end one time or another.

Do you think yahoo and its 10-minute extensions actually has a problem with auctions never ending?

In fact, real/traditional auctions are perfectly possible on the internet, it's just that the internet makes a few other things possible as well. Like bidding that goes on for days. Forced end-times, though, are basically the result of poor initial design and unwillingness to change on the part of ebay.

If you feel cheated, then raise your maximum bid to actually become your maximum bid. anything else is just desperation bidding.

When you bid on an auction, you're constantly re-evaluating the item's value as the bids are placed. Based on each evaluation, your potential max bid will change. Again, this happens much more when the item's value is vague.

It can be frustrating, but that's the nature of the beast. With 10-minute extensions, you may be trading one type of frustration for another, but at least you're trading a dubious rule for more open competition.

Finally, f*ck "market value."

Love it or hate it, the value of goods in a second-hand collector's market is based solely on what people are willing to pay. If "noobs" are paying huge prices for stuff, then that stuff is going to start moving in the direction of being worth huge prices. It's supply and demand, and lamentably, demand for the TG-16's tiny supply has gone up. Count yourself lucky if you arrived at the party when things were still cheap.

The BINs aren't free to list, and they would disappear if they didn't eventually sell. The more ridiculous ones will probably do just that.

Finally, there is a nice community here that cares about keeping prices down for its members and encouraging people to play, but you all should ask yourself this: If a total stranger approached you with $100 to buy your loose Keith Courage, said he was aware it might be had for less but he wanted it now, and made the whole offer with a smile on his face, would you take the $100? What would you do if people like him kept coming and coming?

[vestcoat]

When you bid on an auction, you're constantly re-evaluating the item's value as the bids are placed. Based on each evaluation, your potential max bid will change.

You should turn these into "I" statements; most people don't think this way.

Again, this happens much more when the item's value is vague.

A beginner can ascertain the going rates for even the most obscure TG16 items within a couple of months. It's really not that hard. I figured out what all of the TG16 and SMS games were going for in a couple of months after coming back to the scene in 2005. I priced the 3DO library last year in about two months and the 32x library in one week last month. If someone doesn't know what a particular game is fetching, they're either not very bright or they're not paying attention. Either way, anyone with a genuine interest in a game shouldn't be bidding less than they're willing to pay.

Finally, f*ck "market value."

Love it or hate it, the value of goods in a second-hand collector's market is based solely on what people are willing to pay. If "noobs" are paying huge prices for stuff, then that stuff is going to start moving in the direction of being worth huge prices. It's supply and demand, and lamentably, demand for the TG-16's tiny supply has gone up. Count yourself lucky if you arrived at the party when things were still cheap.

I'm not saying that "market value" doesn't exist - every gamer has to reckon with it sooner or later - but one should not be overly concerned or influenced by such nonsense. Sometimes the value I place on a game exceeds the market value; sometimes it doesn't. I paid a high price for Dynastic Hero (I like RPGs), but I'm not willing to meet the demands for Magical Chase.

The BINs aren't free to list, and they would disappear if they didn't eventually sell. The more ridiculous ones will probably do just that.

Some individual games might not be profitable, but high-volume gougers can afford to relist their entire inventory for years and still turn a profit. I once sold a lot of three bargain-bin PCE RPGs (Buria 2, Princess Minerva, and some other one I forget) to a buyer that turned out to be a store several years ago for something like $5-10. I immediately saw them all relisted for $35 each the next week. The three games continued to come up in search results, consecutively and in the same order, for the next three years.

Finally, there is a nice community here that cares about keeping prices down for its members and encouraging people to play, but you all should ask yourself this: If a total stranger approached you with $100 to buy your loose Keith Courage, said he was aware it might be had for less but he wanted it now, and made the whole offer with a smile on his face, would you take the $100? What would you do if people like him kept coming and coming?

I've already been through a similar, more realistic, scenario: I auctioned a sealed copy of Military Madness on ebay this Spring (starting at .99 cents) and a buyer PM'ed me offering something like $120-140 for it while the bidding was at $20 with four days left. I knew the game wasn't worth that much and I was very tempted to take his offer, but, frankly, there's nothing I hate more than a desperate noob, so I told him to wait it out. Sure enough, he won and the bidding ended at $52 bucks. He was shocked that I hadn't accepted his offer and told me that his max bid was apparently $400. Whatever.

[Necromancer]

The problem with that reasoning thouch is that snipers do notice. Thats the whole idea behind sniping, to pay attention and be the last one in with a bid.

I bet there's a lot more snipers using tools to automatically place bids than there are snipers doing it manually.

When you bid on an auction, you're constantly re-evaluating the item's value as the bids are placed.

No, no I'm not.

The BINs aren't free to list...

Yes they are.  Ebay offers all sorts of free listings to big sellers.

Finally, there is a nice community here that cares about keeping prices down for its members and encouraging people to play, but you all should ask yourself this: If a total stranger approached you with $100 to buy your loose Keith Courage, said he was aware it might be had for less but he wanted it now, and made the whole offer with a smile on his face, would you take the $100?

Shit no!  I'd laugh, give him one of my dupes, and then offer to let him buy me a beer over a discussion of the evils of price gouging.

What would you do if people like him kept coming and coming?

Eventually I'd run out of dupes and have to start doling out boots to the ass.  They're free!

[grimm]

SamIAm, well, cram millions of potential bidders into an auction house, and ill consider your standpoint more seriously. Untill then i will just disagree with you.

As for sniping tools, you might be right there Necromancer, but i do it the old fashioned way.

[SamIAm]

Aye, you're free to disagree. I stand by my statements as well.

You say you disagree about re-evaluation. I think you're confusing evaluating how much the item is worth to you vs. how much it's worth to the market. As a bidder, if you're clever, you'll try to keep the market from driving up the price beyond what it's worth to you*. That's why buyers in any auction - real or internet - don't start with their highest bids. Doing that shoots up the price in a hurry. Instead they let people outbid them, and try to game them.

"Pricing" an item before an auction only goes so far if the item is rare and there are lots of bidders. That's part of what's so intriguing about auctions - it gives the market a chance to speak, and it doesn't make up its mind until the very end.

I'm not trying to say that gouging doesn't exist. However, when it comes to games like Magical Chase, the market has spoken, and nobody other than the lucky and the well-connected is going to get that game for what it was going for 10 years ago or whatever. Sometimes I think people around here are in denial about that. With supply and demand, it's what enough people are willing to pay that matters. Whatever price other people are NOT willing to pay does not matter.

And all that aside, I still don't see the big freaking deal about 10-minute extensions. It's better for everybody but the sniper. Again, do you think it causes any problems on yahoo?

*Yes, you.  :-"

[grimm]

I think you are the one confused actually. Ive been talking about Ebay or internet auctions and sniping. I dont go to "normal" auctions. I set a maximum bid, i snipe, and often i win. Sometimes i dont, but then im greatful that i snipe, so i dont pay more than i was actually willing to when i rationally decided how much im willing to pay.

I have not once said anything about evaluation what so ever, and thus not if i agree or disagree with it, and i never will, since i pay what im willing to pay, regardless of what something is "market valued" at. for me its as simple as that. If someone wants to overpay for something because the "market value" is blown up, thats their problem, not mine. You may see the market as its own living entity, i see capitalism for what it is instead, and im not gonna help it along more than im forced to.

Again, ive been talking about sniping on ebay, nothing else. Dont read other things into it please as you will only confuse yourself that way.

[vestcoat]

You say you disagree about re-evaluation. I think you're confusing evaluating how much the item is worth to you vs. how much it's worth to the market.

I'm not confusing them. The going rate for a game and its personal value are distinct factors.

As a bidder, if you're clever, you'll try to keep the market from driving up the price beyond what it's worth to you*.  That's why buyers in any auction - real or internet - don't start with their highest bids.

You're welcome to refer to me in the second person; my objection is when you attribute personal, irrational, behavior to buyers in general.

Anyway, you make an interesting comparison and it holds true for standard auctions, online and otherwise, but Ebay doesn't work like that. Ebay's arbitrary end times have created a completely different paradigm. Pardon my hypocrisy while I now attempt to define the behavior of strangers...
The Four Types of Bidders on Ebay:
"Cruisers" - akin to the great, right whales filtering sustenance from the ocean through open mouths, Cruisers bid token amounts on countless items as they find them. Typically resellers or wealthy, indiscriminate collectors, these weirdos account for most of the early, pathetically low bids that appear. They don't worry about end times and they don't worry about being outbid; quantity alone sustains them.
"The Herd" - indecisive or clueless idiots with an integrity deficit. These are the noobs, the desperate, and the reselling gougers who get in bidding wars and allow the values of others to dictate their budget.
"Joe Gamer" - a dying breed of casual bidders who aren't particularly attached to the outcome. Sometimes they'll snipe, but typically they just place their max bid as late as conveniently possible and hope for the best. They don't get in bidding wars and they can't be bothered to sit by the computer at 3AM or pay for a sniping service.
"Snipers" - thought to be a fringe group of troublemakers, Snipers actually account for 70% of all gamers, collectors, and resellers on ebay.
 

"Pricing" an item before an auction only goes so far if the item is rare and there are lots of bidders. That's part of what's so intriguing about auctions - it gives the market a chance to speak, and it doesn't make up its mind until the very end.

Ebay auctions, especially if there's a bidding war, aren't necessarily representative of "the market”. Some of them are. Others represent thirty-year-old bachelors with a tax return. And we're not dealing with any kind of a market in the traditional sense - Ebay, Amazon, Yahoo and the rest are a very small, global monopoly in which we have to compete with virtually every other TG16 enthusiast on the planet every time we want to buy a game. The brick-and-mortar stores and mom-and-pop online dealers that once provided some healthy, capitalist competition have either dried up or changed their prices to reflect ebay rates.

I really don’t understand where you’re coming from. Do you really sit there and constantly adjudicate your bid based on what other people are willing to pay that day? Most people snipe or wait as long as possible. “Pricing” works. I know what games are generally worth and I know what I’m willing to pay. I walk away from countless items in my watch list or in the last five seconds when I waiting to snipe because bidding goes too high.

And all that aside, I still don't see the big freaking deal about 10-minute extensions. It's better for everybody but the sniper. Again, do you think it causes any problems on yahoo?

I don’t know, I’ve never bought anything on yahoo Japan auctions.

You keep saying that extensions would lead to higher auctions for sellers and more fees for ebay; please explain how this benefits non-sniping buyers (never mind that most serious buyers are snipers). Higher prices = bad for buyers. The buyers are already f*cked. Sane people avoid bidding wars, period. Extensions work in a standard auction format because you’re standing in a room with X number of people who’ve all managed to put clothes on that day and drive somewhere. On ebay, it would only give the most indecisive, desperate collectors on the planet more time to jerk off and rethink their bids.

I'm not trying to say that gouging doesn't exist. However, when it comes to games like Magical Chase, the market has spoken, and nobody other than the lucky and the well-connected is going to get that game for what it was going for 10 years ago or whatever. Sometimes I think people around here are in denial about that.

Here at least we’re in full agreement. Prices ain't what they used to be. Our moderator Nat has argued time and again that Magical Chase is worth something like $180 and it’s possible for anyone to find such a deal. The fact is, he helped the old-school TG collector from Dark City productions auction off his games here on the forums (perhaps the least-inflated TG market in the world), in the shout box (which half of us ignore) one night when one or two dozen people were around. He would not have won it for anything near that had Estaban, I, or countless other members known about the auction.

[CPTRAVE]

I like to say "I avoid bidding wars". 

[SamIAm]

You're welcome to refer to me in the second person; my objection is when you attribute personal, irrational, behavior to buyers in general.
Ebay doesn't work like that. Ebay's arbitrary end times have created a completely different paradigm.

My whole point is that this paradigm sucks, and it doesn't have to be quite like it is. Sniping works, and smart ebayers do it, but that doesn't mean it's a good system.

Ebay auctions, especially if there's a bidding war, aren't necessarily representative of "the market”. Some of them are. Others represent thirty-year-old bachelors with a tax return. And we're not dealing with any kind of a market in the traditional sense - Ebay, Amazon, Yahoo and the rest are a very small, global monopoly in which we have to compete with virtually every other TG16 enthusiast on the planet every time we want to buy a game. The brick-and-mortar stores and mom-and-pop online dealers that once provided some healthy, capitalist competition have either dried up or changed their prices to reflect ebay rates.

Where exactly is the injustice happening in this situation?

Ebay and the gang are "the market" for probably the vast majority of retro-gamers, and they have become the dominant forces in determining the market value of 2nd hand collector goods. Overall, despite some downsides, it's good that they exist. They give everybody in the world access to buying and selling anything they could want. If mom-and-pops can't keep up, it ain't because of price-gouging BINs. It's because ebay deals are too cheap. Isn't that what you want?

I really don’t understand where you’re coming from. Do you really sit there and constantly adjudicate your bid based on what other people are willing to pay that day? Most people snipe or wait as long as possible. “Pricing” works. I know what games are generally worth and I know what I’m willing to pay. I walk away from countless items in my watch list or in the last five seconds when I waiting to snipe because bidding goes too high.

A big factor in determining how much you'll bid is simply trying to avoid paying more than the item can reliably be resold for. For collectors, that's basically the definition of "paying too much".

If the item is so rare as to be a once-a-year thing, then yes, I really do believe that people adjust their estimations of the item's market value based on the progress of a single auction. Until the auction ends, that's the only way they can gauge what the current demand is.

I don’t know, I’ve never bought anything on yahoo Japan auctions.

I've bought about ten things and watched 2-3 times as many auctions end. I don't recall a single one going into overtime. I would bet money that the number of auctions that go beyond 30 minutes extra is no more than one in a thousand. People have no motivation to keep bidding that late when extensions are in place.

Remember that every time someone bids, the price goes up, and it can't go up forever.

You keep saying that extensions would lead to higher auctions for sellers and more fees for ebay; please explain how this benefits non-sniping buyers (never mind that most serious buyers are snipers). Higher prices = bad for buyers. The buyers are already f*cked. Sane people avoid bidding wars, period. Extensions work in a standard auction format because you’re standing in a room with X number of people who’ve all managed to put clothes on that day and drive somewhere. On ebay, it would only give the most indecisive, desperate collectors on the planet more time to jerk off and rethink their bids.

OK, first of all, higher prices are good for the buyer who would prefer to pay them in order to get the item. Tell me you've never lost an auction and said to yourself that yeah, you actually would have paid another $2 to get the item now instead of waiting for the next chance. With time extensions, the item will more often go to the guy who really is willing to pay the most, and that's more satisfying for the group as a whole. The seller makes the most money, the guy who wanted it most got the item, and the rest can tell themselves that they didn't pay more than they wanted to.

Second of all, what's with all the vilifying of collectors with money? The "thirty-year-old bachelors with a tax return" have just as much a right to participate in all this as anyone else. I'm sure they know how to dress themselves, too. Yes, resellers are kind of sketchy, but passing around great deals willy-nilly can be stupid as well.

Remember the $100 Keith Courage scenario? If you lean toward giving it to the guy for $1, then you are indeed very kind. However, when that guy turns around and sells it to the next guy for a $99 profit, it's not much use complaining.  Unless you can somehow enforce terms of resale, you should always sell it for as much as you can get. In other words, take the damn $100.

[Necromancer]

However, when it comes to games like Magical Chase, the market has spoken, and nobody other than the lucky and the well-connected is going to get that game for what it was going for 10 years ago or whatever. Sometimes I think people around here are in denial about that.

So the only thing that matters in determining its value is the latest eBay auction?  Gimme a break.

Tell me you've never lost an auction and said to yourself that yeah, you actually would have paid another $2 to get the item now instead of waiting for the next chance.

Never - why would I place a max bid of $20 when I'm really willing to pay $22?  Besides, it's more than likely that the winning bidders max bid was higher than the winning bid amount.

With time extensions, the item will more often go to the guy who really is willing to pay the most, and that's more satisfying for the group as a whole. The seller makes the most money, the guy who wanted it most got the item, and the rest can tell themselves that they didn't pay more than they wanted to.

Yes, it's most satisfying to me when I pay absolute top dollar.  I f*cking hate it when I get a good deal.

In other words, take the damn $100.

In other words, be an a$$hole.  Other people might be a$$holes, so you should be one too.

* forgot this: *

I've bought about ten things and watched 2-3 times as many auctions end. I don't recall a single one going into overtime. I would bet money that the number of auctions that go beyond 30 minutes extra is no more than one in a thousand. People have no motivation to keep bidding that late when extensions are in place.

If time extensions are rarely ever needed, why is it so important that eBay add the option?

[Arkhan]

I've never had the extension on Yahoo go forever.   I had one go for an extra hour once.

I still won.  f*ckers.  I only had to reup my bid and try scrounging for money.  It went for the proper going rate though.  I was hoping for a bargain, but the snipers came out to try doing the same.  -_-;


If some retard came up to me with 100$ for KC, I'd take the 100$ and donate it to one of those retard charities so the buyer and others like him can get some well needed assistance!  >:]  lol

[SamIAm]

So the only thing that matters in determining its value is the latest eBay auction?  Gimme a break.

Never said it was the only thing. Just a major factor. Do you disagree with that as well?

Never - why would I place a max bid of $20 when I'm really willing to pay $22?  Besides, it's more than likely that the winning bidders max bid was higher than the winning bid amount.

Fairly likely, yes. But who knows? And what if the item was ~$100 and rarely came along? Would you not for a moment question spending an additional 2% to get yourself the item now instead of later?

I'd gladly pay the $2 not to have to wait for another month.

Yes, it's most satisfying to me when I pay absolute top dollar.  I f*cking hate it when I get a good deal.

Good for you.

Think about this for a moment - could it be that the fear of being sniped sometimes leads people to artificially inflate their maximum bids, and ultimately the item's market value? Could it be that in an ebay without sniping, for every instance of an item's end-price going up because of additional bids in overtime, there would be another item that sells for less because people bid a little more sincerely?

At least both results are fair. Sniping, on the other hand, is ultimately nothing more than a sneaky trick. You're trying to prevent your competition from having a chance to bid higher than you. You say that they should have bid higher in the first place, when all they were trying to do with their less-than-true-max bid was keep the price from flying out of control and save money - the very same thing you're trying to do. The difference is that they weren't trying to wholly prevent anyone from outbidding them.

It works, and I've done it, but sniping is devious and unnecessary in online auctions. That real-life auction houses use a "going once, going twice" type of system and both buyers and sellers seem to prefer this is indication enough that forced end-times are ebay's bad design. Yahoo proves that there's no reason why an internet auction can't be just like a real auction in this case.

In other words, be an a$$hole.  Other people might be a$$holes, so you should be one too.

Well, either that or don't say shit when the guy - a stranger who owes you nothing after your transaction is complete - sells it for $100.

If time extensions are rarely ever needed, why is it so important that eBay add the option?

Because it changes bidder's behavior altogether. Sniping ceases to be effective. In my opinion, that change is for the better.

[Bernie]

When its something I really want, I will bid snipe, or whatever its called.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not.  I know what amount I plan on bidding up to before I actually enter that "snipe" bid.   

[Arkhan]

I do shotgun bidding sometimes.

I go find like a buncha crap I like, and bid on all of it and forget about it.

then I get emails like a week later saying I owe like, 200$ on eBay and I go

f*ck.

then I go

SWEET. LOOK AT THIS CRAP I WON.