Author Topic: Have you LOST any auctions lately?  (Read 2274 times)

Necromancer

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Re: Have you LOST any auctions lately?
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2012, 08:47:01 AM »
Never said it was the only thing. Just a major factor. Do you disagree with that as well?

I do - it's part of the picture, but not the biggest part; if a mere handful are willing to pay $1000 for M.C. when as many copies (or more) have been sold off eBay for considerably less, then those few high priced sales are not setting the worth of the hundreds of other copies in existence.  By the way, why are you so focused on M.C.?  It's relative rarity makes it a rather different kettle of fish compared to 99.9999999999% of other auctions.

Fairly likely, yes. But who knows? And what if the item was ~$100 and rarely came along? Would you not for a moment question spending an additional 2% to get yourself the item now instead of later?

I'd gladly pay the $2 not to have to wait for another month.

Then you were willing to pay $102 (or $105, or $110, etc.) and should have bid accordingly.  You might want to rethink your definition of 'max bid' - to me and other logically minded fellows, it means the most I'd comfortably be willing to pay, not some pie in the sky, hoped for price.

Think about this for a moment - could it be that the fear of being sniped sometimes leads people to artificially inflate their maximum bids, and ultimately the item's market value? Could it be that in an ebay without sniping, for every instance of an item's end-price going up because of additional bids in overtime, there would be another item that sells for less because people bid a little more sincerely?

The only way this works is if snipers quit bidding all together, which obviously won't happen.  They'll just place their bids earlier, more people will react/overreact and place higher bids than they intended (part of your constant reevaluation of worth), and the ending values would be higher.  Despite what you believe, that's not a good thing.

At least both results are fair. Sniping, on the other hand, is ultimately nothing more than a sneaky trick.

It's so sneaky that everyone knows about it and expects it.

You're trying to prevent your competition from having a chance to bid higher than you.

No, I'm trying to prevent others from rebidding higher (there's a difference).  Besides resellers looking to flip pricier items, it's people like you that keep re-upping their bid by a few dollars to try and top the current high bidder that are driving up prices.  Sniping is a defense against such silliness.

You say that they should have bid higher in the first place, when all they were trying to do with their less-than-true-max bid was keep the price from flying out of control and save money - the very same thing you're trying to do. The difference is that they weren't trying to wholly prevent anyone from outbidding them.

Less than 10% of my bid snipes are successful, either because bidding has already progressed beyond my snipe amount, due to a more aggressive sniper, or because a previous bidders max bid was higher, so others are obviously getting their chance to win.

It works, and I've done it, but sniping is devious and unnecessary in online auctions. That real-life auction houses use a "going once, going twice" type of system and both buyers and sellers seem to prefer this is indication enough that forced end-times are ebay's bad design. Yahoo proves that there's no reason why an internet auction can't be just like a real auction in this case.

Have you been to a live auction?  It's hardly uncommon for someone to wait for the last moment to start bidding, leaving others very little time to 're-evaluate' what they're willing to bid.  Consequently, bidders have already set in their minds what their max bid is.  Do you see where I'm going with this?

Well, either that or don't say shit when the guy - a stranger who owes you nothing after your transaction is complete - sells it for $100.

No thanks, I'm a adult.  If someone takes his good fortune and parlays it into a payday by f*cking someone over, I'll bitch about it all I want (a.k.a. - verbally throwing them on the ground!).
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SamIAm

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Re: Have you LOST any auctions lately?
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2012, 09:37:29 AM »
I do - it's part of the picture, but not the biggest part; if a mere handful are willing to pay $1000 for M.C. when as many copies (or more) have been sold off eBay for considerably less, then those few high priced sales are not setting the worth of the hundreds of other copies in existence.  By the way, why are you so focused on M.C.?  It's relative rarity makes it a rather different kettle of fish compared to 99.9999999999% of other auctions.

I suppose we'll just have to disagree about ebay's influence. As for MC, I'm just using it as an example. Have I mentioned it that much?

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Then you were willing to pay $102 (or $105, or $110, etc.) and should have bid accordingly.  You might want to rethink your definition of 'max bid' - to me and other logically minded fellows, it means the most I'd comfortably be willing to pay, not some pie in the sky, hoped for price.

I really don't buy that people in general can decide a price like that and not blink when a 1% increase could potentially make the difference to get them the item. I think people have a price that they'd really like to pay, and after that it becomes a darkening spectrum toward an unacceptable price, and they may bail at any point along the way.

Furthermore, my point still stands that people don't want to reveal their max bids until it's necessary for the sake of keeping the price as low as possible.

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The only way this works is if snipers quit bidding all together, which obviously won't happen.  They'll just place their bids earlier, more people will react/overreact and place higher bids than they intended (part of your constant reevaluation of worth), and the ending values would be higher.  Despite what you believe, that's not a good thing.

Maybe that concept I mentioned works, maybe it doesn't. Extensions that prevent sniping still strike me as being more fair. Snipers won't stop bidding, but they'll be left with no advantages that others don't have.

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It's so sneaky that everyone knows about it and expects it.

Regardless of how many know about it, nothing changes about the fact that snipers are trying to block people from even having the chance to outbid them. "Sneaky" was a poor choice of adjective. How about "selfish"?

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No, I'm trying to prevent others from rebidding higher (there's a difference).  

Please explain. I see no difference between "rebidding" and "bidding". Neither does ebay or any other site, or they'd only let you make one max bid.

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Besides resellers looking to flip pricier items, it's people like you that keep re-upping their bid by a few dollars to try and top the current high bidder that are driving up prices.  Sniping is a defense against such silliness.

Those "re-ups" are honest bids. You have the chance to outbid me. If you don't, then I guess I'm willing to pay more than you. What's the problem? That's how auctions work.

Think I'm driving up the market? Ask sellers how they feel about that. This is business.

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Less than 10% of my bid snipes are successful, either because bidding has already progressed beyond my snipe amount, due to a more aggressive sniper, or because a previous bidders max bid was higher, so others are obviously getting their chance to win.

I don't think sniping is a dire problem, but I do think that yahoo's solution is better and more fair.

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Have you been to a live auction?  It's hardly uncommon for someone to wait for the last moment to start bidding, leaving others very little time to 're-evaluate' what they're willing to bid.  Consequently, bidders have already set in their minds what their max bid is.  Do you see where I'm going with this?

I get what you're trying to say, but if people were that strongly decided on what their maximums were, auctions wouldn't exist as they do. Rather, everyone would privately submit a single bid, the seller would take the highest one, and that would be the end of it. Yet bids in an open auction keep coming because people change their minds about how much they're willing to pay.

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No thanks, I'm a adult.  If someone takes his good fortune and parlays it into a payday by f*cking someone over, I'll bitch about it all I want (a.k.a. - verbally throwing them on the ground!).

I think it's immoral for a someone to come into a community like this one and turn good deals that are meant to help other members play into profit. That violates an unwritten term of the community. If they acquire and turn stuff over completely within a marketplace like ebay, though, I have to say that it may be frustrating, but it's fair.

Let the buyer beware.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 09:41:51 AM by SamIAm »

vestcoat

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Re: Have you LOST any auctions lately?
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2012, 09:57:12 AM »
Sniping, on the other hand, is ultimately nothing more than a sneaky trick.
Necro's right - it's a defense against silliness.  I like said before, everyone has the ability to bid whatever the game is worth to them. This universe grants us "choice" in everything we do and no one else has the power to take that away. Weak-minded people blame snipers for their losses rather than feel regret from bad decision making.

And you're back to assuming things about me that aren't true - I have never once wished I had bid an extra two dollars. First, you never know how high the winner's max bid really was. It could have topped at $2, but more likely it was $20. Second, my max bid really is my max bid. When I just barely win an auction, I'm kind of happy, but I also feel a substantial amount of "oh f*ck, it's going to be two days before I can come up with that $72.11." I NEVER feel regret from a loss. The auction frenzy quickly vanishes and I walk away glad to have the money for something else. The only time I feel regret is when I forget to bid entirely and the item sells for a pittance.
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SamIAm

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Re: Have you LOST any auctions lately?
« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2012, 10:09:41 AM »
My max bid, at least in the final hour, is usually as much as I can allow myself to pay as well. However, I still believe what I said in that second-to-last paragraph in my last post.

What you call "silliness", I call people each getting the same opportunity, weak-minded or otherwise. I'll take that equality over you and other individual's vigilante moderation of "bad decision making" via your sniping.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 10:29:48 AM by SamIAm »

BlueBMW

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Re: Have you LOST any auctions lately?
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2012, 10:47:33 AM »
Sooo many walls o text!!!  My eyes hurt.
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Necromancer

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Re: Have you LOST any auctions lately?
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2012, 10:49:52 AM »
I really don't buy that people in general can decide a price like that and not blink when a 1% increase could potentially make the difference to get them the item.

But where does it end?  I bid $100, he bids $101, I rebid to $102 (it's a mere $2!), his max bid automatically takes it to $103, I rebid to $104 (it's only $2 more!), his max bid automatically drives it up to $105, I rebid to $106 (it's still only two bucks more!), etc.

Furthermore, my point still stands that people don't want to reveal their max bids until it's necessary for the sake of keeping the price as low as possible.

But nobody can see your max bid until you've been outbid.... what're you trying to do?  Hide your real max bid as long as possible?  Just snipe already.

Please explain. I see no difference between "rebidding" and "bidding". Neither does ebay or any other site, or they'd only let you make one max bid.

bid: to make an offer to pay a certain price
rebid: to offer a revised bid.

Are you being intentionally obtuse?  In any case, I didn't say you weren't allowed to revise bids.

Those "re-ups" are honest bids. You have the chance to outbid me. If you don't, then I guess I'm willing to pay more than you. What's the problem? That's how auctions work.

And you have the option of bidding an item above my limit or setting a max bid above my limit.  If you don't, then I guess I was willing to pay more than you.  What's the problem?  That's how auctions work.

Think I'm driving up the market? Ask sellers how they feel about that. This is business.

It's srs bsns!  Of course the sellers (especially resellers) like the market being driven ever higher.... what's your point?
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SamIAm

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Re: Have you LOST any auctions lately?
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2012, 10:55:28 AM »
So I take it that when you snipe, it's always your first bid? Because if it's not, you're being a hypocrite. You're preventing someone from doing what you're doing when you have no particular right, just a better sniping program.

But where does it end?  I bid $100, he bids $101, I rebid to $102 (it's a mere $2!), his max bid automatically takes it to $103, I rebid to $104 (it's only $2 more!), his max bid automatically drives it up to $105, I rebid to $106 (it's still only two bucks more!), etc.

Trust me, it won't go on forever.

vestcoat

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Re: Have you LOST any auctions lately?
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2012, 10:58:20 AM »
I get what you're trying to say, but if people were that strongly decided on what their maximums were, auctions wouldn't exist as they do. Rather, everyone would privately submit a single bid, the seller would take the highest one, and that would be the end of it. Yet bids in an open auction keep coming because people change their minds about how much they're willing to pay.
You've got a good point here. As much as I try to ignore it, there is a "fun" factor that draws people to auctions and some folks thrive on the excitement. To me it looks really stupid; like mindless consumerism at best or gambling at worst. I lump bid-revisers in the same category as the lifeforms who stand in line and trample each other on Black Friday...

ANYWAY, yeah, I guess my preference for sniping is an effort to turn ebay into that everyone-place-one-bid-and-be-done-with-it system you mentioned. That would be sweet.  =P~
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SamIAm

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Re: Have you LOST any auctions lately?
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2012, 11:01:37 AM »
ANYWAY, yeah, I guess my preference for sniping is an effort to turn ebay into that everyone-place-one-bid-and-be-done-with-it system you mentioned. That would be sweet.  =P~

Now THAT would strike me as being fair. :)

However, I'll take the auction format myself.

Necromancer

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Re: Have you LOST any auctions lately?
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2012, 11:05:57 AM »
So I take it that when you snipe, it's always your first bid?

Yep.  True to its name, I only have one max bid.

Trust me, it won't go on forever.

Of course not, but it also doesn't just stop at 'only $2 more'.
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SamIAm

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Re: Have you LOST any auctions lately?
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2012, 11:15:43 AM »
Yep.  True to its name, I only have one max bid.

All right, then.

The approach you advocate isn't unfair. However, think of it this way - If everyone shoots in one bid in the last second (the timing should make no difference to them), and ebay calculates the high bidder right then and there without anyone so much as even seeing what others are doing, it's hardly an auction anymore. It's a new game altogether, and I'm not sure how much I'd want to play, as a buyer or a seller. Maybe that's just me, though.

Trust me, it won't go on forever.
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Of course not, but it also doesn't just stop at 'only $2 more'.

I'm still not worried.

EDIT: My final thought on this:

In order for sniping and forced end-times to be fair, information about how much is being bid should be kept a secret until after the winner is determined. This prevents anyone from having an unfair advantage. I believe the ideal would be to give sellers a choice of two options: having a forced end-time coupled with non-disclosed bids, or having openly visible bids coupled with the possibility of end-time extension.

Does that jive with your views?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 11:35:18 AM by SamIAm »

tpivette

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Re: Have you LOST any auctions lately?
« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2012, 11:27:32 AM »
Lost another auction for a complete (no box) Neutopia. This is the 3rd time I've been outbid on this game. Looks like if I want to win this from ebay I'll have to spend more than $25 shipped
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420GOAT

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Re: Have you LOST any auctions lately?
« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2012, 11:45:25 AM »
Lost another auction for a complete (no box) Neutopia. This is the 3rd time I've been outbid on this game. Looks like if I want to win this from ebay I'll have to spend more than $25 shipped

thats why i buy it now, in a month that price will jump and then youll be in it for more.
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tpivette

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Re: Have you LOST any auctions lately?
« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2012, 12:22:56 PM »
There was a complete in jewel case BIN Neutopia for $25 (+$5 shipping) that I passed on... kinda wishing I didn't now as all the auctions have been going for slightly more lately
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vestcoat

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Re: Have you LOST any auctions lately?
« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2012, 06:07:12 PM »
In order for sniping and forced end-times to be fair...

Does that jive with your views?
The fairness argument still doesn't make a lick of sense. Everyone has the exact same footing on ebay. I'm not friends with any employees giving me insider bidding information, I don't have a price guide with exact market values, I'm not hacking anyone's computer or blocking their internet access at the last second, and I'm not a mind reader or a hypnotist. If my snipe doesn't win the auction (which happens frequently), I'm not left with any time to revise my bid, either. Does sniping deviate from a traditional auction? Yes. Maybe it even makes it less "fun" for those with an appetite for such things, but ANYONE COULD DO WHAT I DO (and most do). If someone doesn't feel like sitting at their computer, then they can pay twenty cents and use Esnipe.

Virtually every auction has multiple snipers waiting at the end; it's a fact of life. Everyone experiences what it's like to be sniped within their first few visits to ebay. Fool me once...
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