Have you LOST any auctions lately?

[SamIAm]

Virtually every auction has multiple snipers waiting at the end; it's a fact of life. Everyone experiences what it's like to be sniped within their first few visits to ebay. Fool me once...

On the other hand, with the system I mentioned, there would be no fooling at all. The terms would be clear from the start, and the whole "auction" masquerade would come to an end. Is that not more fair?

[vestcoat]

Your proposal might lead to more deliberation, it might prolong the "thrill" of consumerism and compulsive bidding, and it would certainly lead to higher prices, but it has nothing to do with fairness. The only way in which the current system is unfair is that snipers who choose to live in extremely rural locations may be forced to use dial-up, in which case they have to either place their snipes ten seconds before everyone else or use a sniping service - not a big deal.

My jaw dropped the first time I was sniped in 1998, but it wasn't unfair because I would not have exceeded my max bid. The shock came from naiveté - I had begun to feel ownership for an object that was not yet mine. The lesson I learned was not to count my chickens before they're hatched. Making a false assumption or taking a clumsy first step is part doing anything for the first time. Everybody on ebay has equal footing and everybody learns the rules of the road in short order.

Is ebay the best system? No. IMO, sniping and traditional auctions are both a pain in the butt because they both require participation in the final moments. Is ebay unfair? Absolutely not.

EDIT: also, they're no masquerade - every auction has a clock counting down. No one would expect extensions at the last second.

[DragonmasterDan]

Just one quick note, the existence of snipers and retaliatory bidding just causes more people to snipe. Example, yesterday a game I wanted was due to end. I knew what I wanted to bid long before the auction was over. But because of the likely possibility of jackasses bidding over and over and over and raising the price until they felt the satisfaction of "winning". I waited until 5 seconds left to put in my bid. This didn't give any retaliatory bidders who weren't also prepared to snipe an opportunity to outbid me. And I won my game for about 50.00 less than Vestcoat got for his copy a few months ago. This is consumerism at its finest, if you have the time and opportunity, good deals can be had if you're willing to bid at the right time.

[SamIAm]

Is ebay the best system? No.

That's all I really wanted to hear.

Rather than get into a semantics debate about the word "fair", let me just ask - Why not implement that system I mentioned? Don't you think it's better if forcing all bids to be concealed until the end leads people to think that they might as well just make one large bid anytime before the auction ends? Isn't that what you want?

Ebay in it's current state is trying to have what you want (1 max bid per person) and what I want (a guaranteed rebid opportunity for a person with an undecided maximum) at the same time, and it's simply bad design.

[Necromancer]

Don't you think it's better if forcing all bids to be concealed until the end leads people to think that they might as well just make one large bid anytime before the auction ends? Isn't that what you want?

This sounds like a silent auction, which many people would definitely not like.  Few would like waiting 'til the end to see how much they've spent (if anything), being forced to pass up other possible deals for fear of overreaching or ending up with two of the same title.

[Arkhan]

I just bid right away.  If I am outbid, I go find a new one and see if I can get it for the price I want to pay.

I usually go for about half what I am willing to pay, and if I get outbid and haven't found it elsewhere, I shoot it up to my max bid.

[SamIAm]

Few would like waiting 'til the end to see how much they've spent (if anything), being forced to pass up other possible deals for fear of overreaching or ending up with two of the same title.

But is that so different from waiting until the end for the impending sniper fight?

[Arkhan]

Yes, because if you already bid your max and you've been outbid, you can go off and find a new auction.

[SamIAm]

Considering that auctions for things you want virtually never end simultaneously, that shouldn't be important. Bid your max bid on the one that's ending next. Didn't get it? Do it again for the next one.

[SignOfZeta]

When Arkhan is the voice of reason, you're clearly listening in on a crazy people conversation.

Seriously, retards. Just bid. Once. Doesn't matter when. Learn by email I you've won or not.

[Necromancer]

But is that so different from waiting until the end for the impending sniper fight?

It is different when the price is already higher than what I'm willing to pay, hours or even days before the auction ends.

Considering that auctions for things you want virtually never end simultaneously, that shouldn't be important. Bid your max bid on the one that's ending next. Didn't get it? Do it again for the next one.

I don't live in front of a computer, so it's quite common (especially on weekends) that two or more auctions end before I'm back online.  Why should I wait around if the price is already higher than what I want to pay?

[SamIAm]

So it's down to convenience vs. opportunity, eh?

Perhaps it speaks well for your argument that I'm actually going to have to bow out now due to inconvenience. My plane across the Pacific for my brother's wedding in New York leaves today, and I have to get ready.

Happy bidding, anyway.

[FiftyQuid]

My plane across the Pacific for my brother's wedding in New York leaves today, and I have to get ready.

Damn.  I was sure Necromancer would hit 10,000 posts before this conversation ended.  Looks like I owe Bernie $20.

[Bernie]

My plane across the Pacific for my brother's wedding in New York leaves today, and I have to get ready.

Damn.  I was sure Necromancer would hit 10,000 posts before this conversation ended.  Looks like I owe Bernie $20.

??  Why would you owe me $20?

[SamIAm]

Damn.  I was sure Necromancer would hit 10,000 posts before this conversation ended.  Looks like I owe Bernie $20.

I've got a layover, and Seoul has free wifi, so I'll see what I can do.

Necro, the truth is, I don't like silent auctions any more than you do. You're totally right about the inconvenience factor as well, which I hadn't even thought of. But let's keep thinking about alternatives for a moment.

What about a system where bids are visable, and everyone only gets one bid? That would apparently suit most people here just fine. However, how popular would this system be? There would probably be a huge reaction against it.

The whole idea behind an auction, the thing that brings people to the table, is that the guy who is willing to pay the most gets the item. With Ebay's current system, you can have a guy who has decided that he is willing to pay more, but can't because he was cut off by the time limit before he even knew he was outbid. He never got a chance to make the decision to let the item go.

I know that's not how you and vestcoat tick, and that it's possible to place a higher bid in advance of the end, yet you guys at least seem to acknowledge that people with uncertain maximums will always exist in spite that. However, your response to their situation on ebay is to blow them off and say that they're too stupid to know what's good for them and that giving them their way would poison the market. It's awfully bold of you to say that a cheaper price for you is better than a higher price for them, even though they and the seller would disagree. It's the interest of one sniper against the interest of two others.
 
How do you think seasoned bidders of traditional live auctions would react to the proposal of a time limit? I realize it would be hard to implement, but set that aside for a moment. How would the group as a whole feel? Never mind the sellers, most bidders would probably say that they don't want it because they don't want to lose any opportunity to outbid someone. I bet most yahoo users would say so, too, and I bet the majority ebayers would also say the same thing given the chance to try it.

The reason why I think ebay should have time extensions like yahoo is because it's the best system for the whole group. Nobody risks being cut off by time, only by money, and that's something I think all winners, all losers, and all sellers alike feel is fair.