Whats the name of and where can I find the video that has all the islamic people

[Sadler]

So you haven't spent any time with Libyans? What about Syrians? You spent a couple months in the Phillipines and somehow that makes you an authority on ME policy? Between this and your comparisons of the US to Nazi Germany, I've pretty much lost all respect for your opinion. Questioning the US is fine, like I've said before, we've done horrible shit. Your quickness to liken us to the very worst the world has ever seen, while at the same time glorifying dictators who killed massive amounts of not only their own country men, but our own is ridiculous. Take the blinders off.

[rag-time4]

Prof, thanks for that response, very fair on your part. I applaud you for not buying into the 2-party system, for what its worth.

The one major thing I'm disgreeing on with regards to Libya is that you argue that the rebels are "victims". You say that I dismiss the victims, but I see my position differently. In reality the Libyan people as a whole are victims of this civil war. Civilians who resist the NATO backed regime are now subject to extreme violence and murder. Here is amnesty international reporting on the buildup of terrorist forces around the town of Bani Walid, which has been under siege for the past several weeks:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/libyan-authorities-must-avoid-unnecessary-and-excessive-use-force-bani-walid-2012-10-05

Here is a report on the siege, that mentions how the town has resisted the authority of the NATO backed regime

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10489681

Prof, I believe your statement about people being shot in Libya for demonstrating peacefully is factually incorrect. Here is a human rights watch report that does criticize Jamahiriya security personnel for arresting and beating people with batons:

http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/02/16/libya-arrests-assaults-advance-planned-protests

This is not really any different from the way occupy protesters were dealt with here in the US in many places, particularly here in Oakland, CA. The human rights watch report does mention one person dying in "the ensuing violence"... Seems likely that this involved a violent assault on security personnel, though the report does not clearly describe that violence. People were not killed in large numbers until people started attacking military sites and stealing weapons, and both sides suffered casualties.

EDIT~ I noticed that the above human rights watch article mentioned a 2006 protest on February 16 where 12 people were killed by Jamahiriya security forces, so I looked up that protest to see what went down. Quite interestingly, the people who were killed were part of a splinter group that broke away from the main protest and violently attacked the Italian embassy. The protest itself had nothing to do with the Jamahiriya system - it was a protest about a cartoon with a negative image of prophet Mumammad (pbuh).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4726204.stm

So you haven't spent any time with Libyans? What about Syrians? You spent a couple months in the Phillipines and somehow that makes you an authority on ME policy? Between this and your comparisons of the US to Nazi Germany, I've pretty much lost all respect for your opinion. Questioning the US is fine, like I've said before, we've done horrible shit. Your quickness to liken us to the very worst the world has ever seen, while at the same time glorifying dictators who killed massive amounts of not only their own country men, but our own is ridiculous. Take the blinders off.

And how many Libyans have you met? I did meet a young kid from Libya earlier this year who came to the US last year (during the conflict). He's in his early twenties. His coming here had very little to do with the conflict - he actually came over to meet an American girl he had met on the internet. He said he had been working in Malta before coming over, and he told me his family was very upset with his decision. He couldnt have been more oblivious about the rebellion, and didnt have strong feelings either way about the jamahiriya government... Just like a lot of young people here are politically aloof. Part of being young I guess.

Sadler, you said its ok to question the US, but do you draw the line at criticism? Its ok to question, but not to criticize? How about outright condemnation of certain US policies? Also, Im presenting a lot of evidence in this thread, not merely stating my opinion. Granted, people can look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions. You say the holocaust was the worst thing that ever happened, I think the slave trade / native american genocide + relocation combo is worse. But thats just a difference of opinion. We agree all of the above are horrible. For me thats good enough, Im not one to denigrate your opinion that the holocaust was worse.

I dont feel I'm glorifying Muammar Gadaffi here, nor the jamihiriya government. I think I'm presenting an evidence based argument against the bogus official story, repeated ad nauseum by the mainstream media (including al jazeera) that the jamahiriya military and security forces were engaged in mass slaughter of civilians. I also states earlier, and will state again here, that neither Muammar gadaffi nor the jamahiriya government were strong advocates of individual liberty by any means. I know that people were jailed, beaten, and even killed at times for dissent. That happens here too... Remember Fred Hampton and Mark Clark of the black panthers, for example? All I have done is present some of the jamahiriya's positive accomplishments, and I'm willing to praise Muammar Gaddafi and the jamahiriya government for being progressive on issues of race, African independence, and women's rights.

If others say that the negatives outweigh the positives, thats fair enough... But to totally put blinders on regarding the positives, your analysis will lead to an inherently flawed and biased judgement. Considering both the positives and negatives would lead to a more accurate and honest assessment, even if its the same. It may also lead to a different policy decision.

[HercTNT]

So you haven't spent any time with Libyans? What about Syrians? You spent a couple months in the Phillipines and somehow that makes you an authority on ME policy? Between this and your comparisons of the US to Nazi Germany, I've pretty much lost all respect for your opinion. Questioning the US is fine, like I've said before, we've done horrible shit. Your quickness to liken us to the very worst the world has ever seen, while at the same time glorifying dictators who killed massive amounts of not only their own country men, but our own is ridiculous. Take the blinders off.

Its typical U.S. bashing. He has not said a word about china, or russia, or darfur. Calls me a coward for calling out Gadhafi, but does not seem to have a problem with Gadhafi's involvement with the IRA, or the rape rooms (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2076775,00.html) or the torture chambers (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2030931/Libya-Inside-Gaddafis-torture-chamber-The-bloodstained-cells-inside-primary-school-used-brutalise-enemies.html).

This is not a pissing contest rag, i don't care about your religion, and like the professor i'm aware that the u.s. has not always done the right thing. But neither has anyone else on this planet.  Darfur is a mess of death, rape, and genocide. Saddam was killing his own people by the thousands with mustard gas. Russians storm old block nations killing anyone who disagree with there policy. China is a humanitarian nightmare. Iran sentences anyone to death that speaks out against the regime. Syria is killing civilians in the streets. You make no mention of any of that, just hate hate hate those damned americans. For the record, i have zero issues, with muslims or middle easterners of any kind. you seem to think i do, because i disagree with your clearly one sided view of a known terrorist and murderer. Somehow you turned that into my blanket hate for islam. The difference is, i know our country has made its mistakes, but were not the only ones, and you can't seem to find any fault with your side at all.

I said i would not reply and i lied, guess you bring out the best in me rag.

[rag-time4]

So you haven't spent any time with Libyans? What about Syrians? You spent a couple months in the Phillipines and somehow that makes you an authority on ME policy? Between this and your comparisons of the US to Nazi Germany, I've pretty much lost all respect for your opinion. Questioning the US is fine, like I've said before, we've done horrible shit. Your quickness to liken us to the very worst the world has ever seen, while at the same time glorifying dictators who killed massive amounts of not only their own country men, but our own is ridiculous. Take the blinders off.

Its typical U.S. bashing. He has not said a word about china, or russia, or darfur. Calls me a coward for calling out Gadhafi, but does not seem to have a problem with Gadhafi's involvement with the IRA, or the rape rooms (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2076775,00.html) or the torture chambers (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2030931/Libya-Inside-Gaddafis-torture-chamber-The-bloodstained-cells-inside-primary-school-used-brutalise-enemies.html).

This is not a pissing contest rag, i don't care about your religion, and like the professor i'm aware that the u.s. has not always done the right thing. But neither has anyone else on this planet.  Darfur is a mess of death, rape, and genocide. Sakddam was killing his own people by the thousands with mustard gas. Russians storm old block nations killing anyone who disagree with there policy. China is a humanitarian nightmare. Iran sentences anyone to death that speaks out against the regime. Syria is killing civilians in the streets. You make no mention of any of that, just hate hate hate those damned americans. For the record, i have zero issues, with muslims or middle easterners of any kind. you seem to think i do, because i disagree with your clearly one sided view of a known terrorist and murderer. Somehow you turned that into my blanket hate for islam. The difference is, i know our country has made its mistakes, but were not the only ones, and you can't seem to find any fault with your side at all.

I said i would not reply and i lied, guess you bring out the best in me rag.

Herc, Where did I say anything about you hating Islam?

And why do you accuse me of hating Americans or advocating hatred of Americans?

As I posted earlier, even glenn beck says the US is supporting terrorists in Libya and Syria. Does he also hate Americans? Here is another link for convenience:

I didnt mention china, russia, syria et al because i Understood the topic of the thread to be Libya. In general I agree with your statements on each of these countries, except that in Syria's case, another heavily armed uprising is taking place, with weapons illegally smuggled in from Libya according to Glenn Beck in the above vid.

To respond to the two links... Firstly, on the alleged torture chamber ... do you believe that the American CIA and other secret police institutions never practice torture? How about at guantanamo or abu ghraib? And most importantly, how can you be sure that the blood was from someone tortured or bloodied at the hands of the rebels? On the rape article, did you see where the article clearly states that there was a lot of trouble coming up with evidence? I would bet that 90-100% of all rapes during the conflict were committed by either the rebels or unaffiliated criminals.

You accuse me of not being able to find any fault at all with "my side", but thats clearly not the case. Ive mentioned twice now that the jamahiriya government and Muammar Gaddafi were not champions of individual liberty. People have been beaten, jailed, and even killed at times by libyan government over the past 42 years, sometimes unjustly but sometimes justly. The main issue at hand here is the 2011 civil war. In my view, the official story is BS, and the jamahiriya government and muammar gaddafi were not responsible for the vast majority - if any at all - of the mass executions and other war crimes. The parties most guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity were the islamist terrorists, who operated in the conflict with the backing of the US and NATO. My opinion is not based on wild hatred for America... Its based on the evidence.

~EDIT Herc, for the record I called you a coward not for "calling out Gaddafi" but rather for your personal attack that i'm trolling. Mock me as an armchair QB if you must, but I strongly disgree with the interventionist foreign policy. Despite having never been to Libya, I do have an interest in what happens there and I follow it more than any other foreign country.

[HercTNT]

I got more, you also accused the United States of backing Osama bid laden. This is also not true. you ever hear of charlie wilsons war? No? let me tell you. the US did not want to back afghanistan afraid of another vietnam. But senator charlie wilson decided to aid afghanistan due to the fact the russians were raping and murdering. The russians would drag people out in the street and make their families watch as they drove over them with tanks. Charlie knew they had no chance without better weapons so he convinced the egyptians, Yes the egyptians, to provide the afghans with weapons so as to not give the appearance of the US being involved. So The US did not back osama bid laden (he was a soldier in the war against the russians yes), Charlie wilson backed afghanistan against the russians. So if your gonna hate on the US, you need to decry egypt as well for helping do you not? Don't make such statements without knowing the history, and without laying blame to all parties involved, not just the ones you choose to hate. Am i wrong? go do your homework, then come back.

If you understood the topic to be about libya in general, (it was not, it was about your glorifying of Gadhafi that i commented on, go back and look), then why did you throw in all the other political crap like you did in the other thread?  Your all over the place, and thats called trolling.

[rag-time4]

I got more, you also accused the United States of backing Osama bid laden. This is also not true. you ever hear of charlie wilsons war? No? let me tell you. the US did not want to back afghanistan afraid of another vietnam. But senator charlie wilson decided to aid afghanistan due to the fact the russians were raping and murdering. The russians would drag people out in the street and make their families watch as they drove over them with tanks. Charlie knew they had no chance without better weapons so he convinced the egyptians, Yes the egyptians, to provide the afghans with weapons so as to not give the appearance of the US being involved. So The US did not back osama bid laden (he was a soldier in the war against the russians yes), Charlie wilson backed afghanistan against the russians. So if your gonna hate on the US, you need to decry egypt as well for helping do you not? Don't make such statements without knowing the history, and without laying blame to all parties involved, not just the ones you choose to hate. Am i wrong? go do your homework, then come back.

If you understood the topic to be about libya in general, (it was not, it was about your glorifying of Gadhafi that i commented on, go back and look), then why did you throw in all the other political crap like you did in the other thread?  Your all over the place, and thats called trolling.

So Charlie wilson was the only one in the US government who wanted to support Islamist terrorists, including Osama bin Laden as you admit, in Afghanistan?

I didnt bring in other political crap, you guys did when you accused me of hating America and started mentioning the other thread. Why are you accusing me of bringing in outside topics when thats on you guys?

[ProfessorProfessorson]

Prof, thanks for that response, very fair on your part. I applaud you for not buying into the 2-party system, for what its worth.

The one major thing I'm disgreeing on with regards to Libya is that you argue that the rebels are "victims". You say that I dismiss the victims, but I see my position differently. In reality the Libyan people as a whole are victims of this civil war. Civilians who resist the NATO backed regime are now subject to extreme violence and murder. Here is amnesty international reporting on the buildup of terrorist forces around the town of Bani Walid, which has been under siege for the past several weeks:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/libyan-authorities-must-avoid-unnecessary-and-excessive-use-force-bani-walid-2012-10-05

Here is a report on the siege, that mentions how the town has resisted the authority of the NATO backed regime

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10489681

Prof, I believe your statement about people being shot in Libya for demonstrating peacefully is factually incorrect. Here is a human rights watch report that does criticize Jamahiriya security personnel for arresting and beating people with batons:

http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/02/16/libya-arrests-assaults-advance-planned-protests

This is not really any different from the way occupy protesters were dealt with here in the US in many places, particularly here in Oakland, CA. The human rights watch report does mention one person dying in "the ensuing violence"... Seems likely that this likely involved a violent assault on security personnel, though the report does not clearly describe that violence. People were not killed in large numbers until people started attacking military sites and stealing weapons, and both sides suffered casualties.

Oh no, that's where you are totally wrong. You need to slow the f*ck down and read shit before you decide to post. I never once said that the rebels are victims, and had in fact stated I did not feel comfortable supporting a group I knew next to nothing about. I said the civilians are victims, and I saw no reason why we could not at least interfere to some extent on their behalf to help keep the causalities down on their end. I have also said YOU don't have to fear being dragged out and shot for protesting, compared to the typical Muslim who may in different countries in the Middle East and elsewhere in the Muslim world. Stop being in a rush to post, stuffing words into peoples mouth, and actually read what they have to say before replying back, and no, this thread is not solely dedicated to Libya, don't be so naive. And if you want to post links, post more then the ones that simply state only the things you want to hear, and only paint a fraction of the picture. It just makes you come off as one-sided, moronic, and gullible all in one fell swoop.

There has been more then enough civilians, NOT REBELS, who have made statements to the press about their family members being murdered by Gaddafis regime over the years, and mass graves of had been found of people tortured and executed. Men, women, and children both. You think its ok to dismiss it as untrue simply because these people didn't have the f*cking internet for the past 30 years, Facebook, youtube, webcams and digital cameras and ways to show what the hell they have to endure?

And as far as Gaddafi supporting terrorism, that was well known. I knew about that shit even when I was a kid. He was very outspoken about supporting and providing finances to multiple terrorist type groups, including The New People's Army, the Jeff Fort's Al-Rukn flunkies, the IRA, Moro Islamic Liberation Front, and supporting their attacks on innocent by-standards along with whomever else. He made no effort in fact to hide this activity, and spoke of it often during the years. He did not turn against terrorism until he decided to improve his image to get sanctions removed(how self serving), and in the process extremist groups turned on him (oh the irony).

As stated prior, time for you to shut up and get to packing for your big trip to Muslim Paradise so you can see how things really are over there. Get back to us in a couple of years after you ACTUALLY visit to Libya, Syria, and Iran so you can tell us all how totally wrong we are, and how much more awesomer and stuff those places are compared to your home country of evil infidels, processed food, Xbaux360, and 100 percent totally corrupt governments. Be sure to send us postcards too.

[ProfessorProfessorson]

So Charlie wilson was the only one in the US government who wanted to support Islamist terrorists, including Osama bin Laden as you admit, in Afghanistan?

Regan dedicating a space-shuttle launch to the struggle of a countries people as they fight for freedom is hardly the same thing as supporting Bin Laden, by name no less, let alone Islamist terrorist. You are grasping for straws there and coming up totally empty handed. So f*cking lame.  

I didnt bring in other political crap, you guys did when you accused me of hating America and started mentioning the other thread. Why are you accusing me of bringing in outside topics when thats on you guys?

Go back and read your own post. The whole reason I jumped into this thread is because that's exactly what you did. We stated the obvious, based on your numerous complaints of our country and your undying support for a now dead brutal dictator and his shity murder machine of a regime. You don't like people jumping down your throat, then don't say stupid uneducated shit poser.

[HercTNT]

I got more, you also accused the United States of backing Osama bid laden. This is also not true. you ever hear of charlie wilsons war? No? let me tell you. the US did not want to back afghanistan afraid of another vietnam. But senator charlie wilson decided to aid afghanistan due to the fact the russians were raping and murdering. The russians would drag people out in the street and make their families watch as they drove over them with tanks. Charlie knew they had no chance without better weapons so he convinced the egyptians, Yes the egyptians, to provide the afghans with weapons so as to not give the appearance of the US being involved. So The US did not back osama bid laden (he was a soldier in the war against the russians yes), Charlie wilson backed afghanistan against the russians. So if your gonna hate on the US, you need to decry egypt as well for helping do you not? Don't make such statements without knowing the history, and without laying blame to all parties involved, not just the ones you choose to hate. Am i wrong? go do your homework, then come back.

If you understood the topic to be about libya in general, (it was not, it was about your glorifying of Gadhafi that i commented on, go back and look), then why did you throw in all the other political crap like you did in the other thread?  Your all over the place, and thats called trolling.

So Charlie wilson was the only one in the US government who wanted to support Islamist terrorists, including Osama bin Laden as you admit, in Afghanistan?

I didnt bring in other political crap, you guys did when you accused me of hating America and started mentioning the other thread. Why are you accusing me of bringing in outside topics when thats on you guys?

Who the hell knows, do you, go look it up and find out. why do you keep dodging the fact that others were involved. How about egypt? You said we supported Osama bin laden. We did not, we supported the Afghans against the russians. Why did you dodge that? So it was Islamist terrorists taht were fighting the russians? why no hate for the russians? We did not have problems with Bin laden until the war was over and the taliban took control. And you can ditch the youtube crap, obviously if its on youtube it must be true right? And more importantly, my statement to you, in the beginning was about gadhafi, you replied with a blanket statement about nato, the uniteds states and a whole bunch of other crap.

Why is it, when you say bad shit about the United states is proof? Why is it when you see bad stuff about Gadhafi its alleged? Thats not called one sided?  Even better, why talk such bad shit about americans anyways. Hate the leaders if you want. I'm not thrilled with the people running iran, but i got nothing against its people. Gadhafi was a murderer, but thats not the libyans fault.

[nectarsis]

Also, Muammar Gaddafi and the Libyan Jamahiriya have always been very good friends of the Nation of Islam here in America. My character judgement of Muammar Gaddafi is informed primarily by that relationship, as well as his consistent advocacy for a strong, independent, and united Africa.

Wow sounds HUGELY biased to me....yet you want people to think you go at things with a completely open mind 

[rag-time4]

Prof, sorry if I misrepresented your position on the rebels. I agree completely that the civilians are the victims. Im presenting links that support my position, youre right. My position is that the official story on the 2011 conflict is BS. When it was happening, mainstream media almost unanimously was blaming all atrocities and civilian suffering on Muammar Gaddafi and the jamahiriya, or would falsely say that atrocities were committed by "both sides". The jamihiriya army re-took control of several cities, then would be pushed back, and there was no evidence of any atrocities committed by government forces, but many cases of mass executions by rebel forces.

Interesting that you note that Islamist extremist groups turned on Gaddafi and the jamahiriya government... The fact is that they were always a factor in Libyan domestic politics. Did they have no influence on government policy over the years, and was Gaddafi responsible for atrocities more than they were? You state correctly that Gaddafi did push Libya away from supporting terrorist groups, but why do you accuse him of being self serving over promoting the interests of the people, who would benefit greatly from removal of sanctions? And why not give credit for making a good, progressive change away from earlier militancy that resulted in many innocent people being caught in the crossfire? To me, thats just as fair (unfair) as not acknowledging American progress where its due. Maybe morally its much different for you, since in America we dont have a single person in public office for 42 years, so one politician cant be personally responsible for bad policy in prior years. I would argue that there may be moral room for those in other systems to be judged a little differently... But even if we judge Muammar Gaddafi for people hurt as an effect of his decisions, why throw out the whole system of government? Surely greater crimes were committed as matters of official policy, such as slavery. Should we therefore throw out the Constitution? Im not advocating for that.

As far as the space shuttle reference, I used that because I thought Hercs statement that the US didnt want to support Islamist fighters in Afghanistan was rather comical. ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI (who just so happens to serve the Obama administration!!) stated that the US moved immedeately to meet with pakistan to plan a dual response that would ensure expensive, prolonged fighting for the USSR. This policy began under Carter, Reagan could have stopped it were he actually opposed: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/coldwar/interviews/episode-17/brzezinski2.html

Also, Muammar Gaddafi and the Libyan Jamahiriya have always been very good friends of the Nation of Islam here in America. My character judgement of Muammar Gaddafi is informed primarily by that relationship, as well as his consistent advocacy for a strong, independent, and united Africa.

Wow sounds HUGELY biased to me....yet you want people to think you go at things with a completely open mind 

Nowhere in the thread did I state that I go in with a completely open mind. I go in with an opposite bias to that of the mainstream official story, which is blatantly anti-Gaddafi and anti-jamahiriya. Bias revealed, my argument here is supported by mainstream sources, or in the case of that 2-part vid primary video sources.

[nectarsis]

Wow sounds HUGELY biased to me....yet you want people to think you go at things with a completely open mind 

Nowhere in the thread did I state that I go in with a completely open mind. I go in with an opposite bias to that of the mainstream official story, which is blatantly anti-Gaddafi and anti-jamahiriya. Bias revealed, my argument here is supported by mainstream sources, or in the case of that 2-part vid primary video sources.
[/quote]

Yet you have played that card numerous times on various subjects.   You can't believe the "truth" (especially if it's opposite to what "FACTS" you "KNOW") going in with a predisposition, that OBVIOUSLY has you SEVERELY jaded to think/believe one way.

[rag-time4]

I got more, you also accused the United States of backing Osama bid laden. This is also not true. you ever hear of charlie wilsons war? No? let me tell you. the US did not want to back afghanistan afraid of another vietnam. But senator charlie wilson decided to aid afghanistan due to the fact the russians were raping and murdering. The russians would drag people out in the street and make their families watch as they drove over them with tanks. Charlie knew they had no chance without better weapons so he convinced the egyptians, Yes the egyptians, to provide the afghans with weapons so as to not give the appearance of the US being involved. So The US did not back osama bid laden (he was a soldier in the war against the russians yes), Charlie wilson backed afghanistan against the russians. So if your gonna hate on the US, you need to decry egypt as well for helping do you not? Don't make such statements without knowing the history, and without laying blame to all parties involved, not just the ones you choose to hate. Am i wrong? go do your homework, then come back.

If you understood the topic to be about libya in general, (it was not, it was about your glorifying of Gadhafi that i commented on, go back and look), then why did you throw in all the other political crap like you did in the other thread?  Your all over the place, and thats called trolling.

So Charlie wilson was the only one in the US government who wanted to support Islamist terrorists, including Osama bin Laden as you admit, in Afghanistan?

I didnt bring in other political crap, you guys did when you accused me of hating America and started mentioning the other thread. Why are you accusing me of bringing in outside topics when thats on you guys?

Who the hell knows, do you, go look it up and find out. why do you keep dodging the fact that others were involved. How about egypt? You said we supported Osama bin laden. We did not, we supported the Afghans against the russians. Why did you dodge that? So it was Islamist terrorists taht were fighting the russians? why no hate for the russians? We did not have problems with Bin laden until the war was over and the taliban took control. And you can ditch the youtube crap, obviously if its on youtube it must be true right? And more importantly, my statement to you, in the beginning was about gadhafi, you replied with a blanket statement about nato, the uniteds states and a whole bunch of other crap.

Why is it, when you say bad shit about the United states is proof? Why is it when you see bad stuff about Gadhafi its alleged? Thats not called one sided?  Even better, why talk such bad shit about americans anyways. Hate the leaders if you want. I'm not thrilled with the people running iran, but i got nothing against its people. Gadhafi was a murderer, but thats not the libyans fault.

Herc, where did I show any hate for the American people? Why is it that when mainstream sources alleged the jamahiriya was guilty of mass atrocities, everyone assumed it was true? Why is it that when government officials stated that NATO airstrikes were killing civilians, they were dismissed as self serving liars and propagandists when they were stating truth?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/world/africa/scores-of-unintended-casualties-in-nato-war-in-libya.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Herc, to be fair, more people have been killed at the hands of Communist party dictators than islamist terrorists, by far. That doesnt make US support of islamists any less factual. I agree that it wasnt really a problem for the US until the internal power struggle played itself out... But that can be seen as a natural result of US policy. We are still dealing with the consequences, the worst of which may be the growing debt.

Nec, where have I played the "I'm totally unbiased" card... Which subjects? Besides the greatness of Image Fight...

[ProfessorProfessorson]

Yet you have played that card numerous times on various subjects.   You can't believe the "truth" (especially if it's opposite to what "FACTS" you "KNOW") going in with a predisposition, that OBVIOUSLY has you SEVERELY jaded to think/believe one way.

Basically what it amounts to is he wont believe the truth if he doesn't like the source from wince it came, so due to that, he would rather be on the side of some murdering dictator, due to some religious tie to a group of people he aspires to be like, because the mainstream media is so totally worse then anything Gaddafi ever did during his reign, like totally. Because everyone else is bias, he has to be too.  And yet, here we are. He sits here, still with no bags packed, ready to go check out how the real Muslim lives his daily life in that part of the world. Just more one-sided speculation and utter bullshit from a guy with no experience to speak of regarding the subject matter, yapping on and on and on without a leg to stand on. Just who exactly are you trying to convince here Rags, you, or me? I say you got a plane to catch. Get back to me in a year or two after you do the great tour. Till then, I'm putting you on ignore, because nothing you are saying here is worth a damn. Its put up or shut up time for you poser.

[rag-time4]

Yet you have played that card numerous times on various subjects.   You can't believe the "truth" (especially if it's opposite to what "FACTS" you "KNOW") going in with a predisposition, that OBVIOUSLY has you SEVERELY jaded to think/believe one way.

Basically what it amounts to is he wont believe the truth if he doesn't like the source from wince it came, so due to that, he would rather be on the side of some murdering dictator, due to some religious tie to a group of people he aspires to be like, because the mainstream media is so totally worse then anything Gaddafi ever did during his reign, like totally. Because everyone else is bias, he has to be too.  And yet, here we are. He sits here, still with no bags packed, ready to go check out how the real Muslim lives his daily life in that part of the world. Just more one-sided speculation and utter bullshit from a guy with no experience to speak of regarding the subject matter, yapping on and on and on without a leg to stand on. Just who exactly are you trying to convince here Rags, you, or me? I say you got a plane to catch. Get back to me in a year or two after you do the great tour. Till then, I'm putting you on ignore, because nothing you are saying here is worth a damn. Its put up or shut up time for you poser.

And yet Im presenting info only from mainstream sources, which refutes the earlier bogus official story.