Author Topic: MOD GUIDE - Universal RGB-to-YPbPr/Component Circuit & Mod [8/24/2014]  (Read 19616 times)

Keith Courage

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2690
Re: MOD GUIDE - Universal RGB-to-YPbPr/Component Circuit & Mod [8/24/2014]
« Reply #240 on: October 06, 2014, 06:50:55 PM »
Sorry I meant Luma. So used to talking to people about cd read issues that I guess my brain automatically turned Luma into Lens via my typing fingers.

cjameslv

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 938
Re: MOD GUIDE - Universal RGB-to-YPbPr/Component Circuit & Mod [8/24/2014]
« Reply #241 on: October 06, 2014, 06:56:32 PM »
......

I am using this on a north american TG-16, after crafting my own crimp housing with jumper cables to the expansion port, so im wondering if theres any improvement in the new design that might help me here.

I don't have any other CRT to test except VGA, and a composite upscaler, so im looking around for someone who might have one to test.  I am also wondering if its a length issue of my component cables.

He's back home now. I got a v.2 board on its way in the mail. I'll be sure when i install and test it and let you know. I have a capture card that doesn't get much love so i am looking forward to trying this out.

Helder

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: MOD GUIDE - Universal RGB-to-YPbPr/Component Circuit & Mod [8/24/2014]
« Reply #242 on: October 08, 2014, 09:07:42 AM »
So I built a through hole PCB based off the latest schematic on page 1 and for the most part it works great except that there is too much green where there should be black. For example the TMS intro screen has a strong green outline and I've played with the pots and nothing fixes that green outline. I didn't use the same resistor values but it was close enough like 500ohm I used 512ohm and the 15ohm I used 12ohm. Thanks for any info.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 09:29:19 AM by Helder »

NightWolve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5277
Re: MOD GUIDE - Universal RGB-to-YPbPr/Component Circuit & Mod [8/24/2014]
« Reply #243 on: October 08, 2014, 12:18:44 PM »
Hi Helder, first off, thanks for going the DIY route instead of buying a board which was the intent of this thread, to not have to buy some JROK or similar board and learn to build it yourself. Very few participants have tried to do so and everyone else just resorted to buying turbokon's boards. I found that disappointing, but I understand, not enough has been done to reduce the first impression complexity of the circuit. The OP is very unfinished and more work on better presentation and guiding is needed which I hope will happen over time.

Anyway, I have a quick experiment for you to try. I dunno if it'll help, I wanted to be set up with my scope before getting there, but I am behind on it.

So, for relevant background, the formula for producing a proper Luma/Y signal for YPbPr when the resolution is 240p/480i/480p is something like this: Y = .299 (Red) + .587 (Green) + .114 (Blue). It's different if the resolution is 720p and up and the TV's circuitry would expect a different mix as a result.

Given that formula for Y, those first 3 resistors (R1-R3) for the RGB lines are what condition our Luma/Y mix to get to that standard which most TVs will expect. Now to translate it to precise resistance values is the trick/thing!! The way I've seen it done was based on the first feedback resistor to the first amplifier component which inverts the signal (thus, gives you a 180 degree out of phase signal, hence "-Y" and why the P [for Phase shifted] notation is used for P_blue and P_red). The properly selected feedback resistor is 324 Ohms in that case, so for R = 324/.299 = 1070 Ohms, G = 324/.587 = 549, and B = 324/.114 = 2940 Ohms.

Well, Steve's chosen feedback resistor is 500 Ohms and so if blindly using that same formula, then:
1) Red = 500/.299  = 1672 Ohms
2) Green = 500/.587 = 852 Ohms
3) Blue = 500/.114 = 4386 Ohms

So to get to the point, for R1 on Steve's schematic (page 1 of thread), I want you to try 1672 Ohms, R2, 852 Ohms, and R3, 4386 Ohms. R2 going to 852 Ohms will weaken the green by a bit from the 500 that it's at now, but since this calls for weakening the others, still couldn't guess if that would bring the 3 signal levels to the proper balance that the spec calls for. You see, I don't have the special insight when it comes to the S8050 transistor and how that relates to the chosen feedback resistor of 500. Steve does, but he didn't closely follow the spec and went by his eyes in this area I believe. The circuit that I learned this math from was using an op-amp and the feedback of 324 Ohms was like a special sweet spot for optimal operation of it and what not... I am blindly applying it here with transistors so no guarantees obviously.

For thread reference/research, here is said circuit/schematic, but note that it's not complete as they do not inject H/V Sync (unlike Steve's circuit) to produce a working Luma/Y (left up to the user):


Well, if trying my idea, you'll obviously need like 2 solid resistors in series or 10k pots to get those non-standard values (like 4386 Ohms) for all 3 signals, but I wanted to offer those values up for a test since I haven't done it myself. The short answer is though you can simply increase the resistance value of R2 which is for green obviously. This assumes you did the whole circuit correctly as it is tricky and one soldering mistake will seriously throw things off!!
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 01:24:32 PM by NightWolve »

Helder

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: MOD GUIDE - Universal RGB-to-YPbPr/Component Circuit & Mod [8/24/2014]
« Reply #244 on: October 08, 2014, 01:49:28 PM »
Thank you for the speedy reply! I should have given a little more info in the previous post, I'm generally trying this on a Sega Genesis Model 2 on a SD TV so it should take 240p without issue as I have done so in the past with a different circuit. The board I made is actually a fabricated PCB I made so it would be real simple to mod and alter as needed so that I can later shrink it smaller using SMD parts. If anyone here wants a simple DIY board to try this circuit I can sell the remainder (9) for $5 plus $2 shipping if in USA.





So I guess as a safe bet in trying the values you posted is to use a 5k pot on the 3 input lines in place of the 500ohm and 1k resistors, and adjust them close to the values you mentioned and take it from there. I will post back the results tomorrow after using the pots, thank you again.

thesteve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2952
Re: MOD GUIDE - Universal RGB-to-YPbPr/Component Circuit & Mod [8/24/2014]
« Reply #245 on: October 08, 2014, 08:47:45 PM »
another thing i found running geni is the black isnt near as good, due to a wider sync pulse
the 15ohm brought it close to the PCE, but a slightly larger resistor could serve you better (or a resistor to ground from sync input)

NightWolve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5277
Re: MOD GUIDE - Universal RGB-to-YPbPr/Component Circuit & Mod [8/24/2014]
« Reply #246 on: October 09, 2014, 04:39:28 PM »
So I guess as a safe bet in trying the values you posted is to use a 5k pot on the 3 input lines in place of the 500ohm and 1k resistors, and adjust them close to the values you mentioned and take it from there. I will post back the results tomorrow after using the pots, thank you again.

Aha, I thought so, you have 1K for the blue line! That was a mistake I caught for Steve after studying the SDTV formula for Luma/Y. If you look at the schematic again, you'll see it was changed to 2K per Steve's judgement and my insistence that 1K had to be wrong because blue is supposed to be the weakest signal in that mix. But yeah, I'm a perfectionist and want to know the math to compute the exact resistance values for what those 3 input resistors should be, which is why I shared my research and suggested updated values. For now, the official circuit/schematic photo has Steve's generic choices, 1000 Ohms for Red, 500 for Green, and 2000 for Blue.

That's a nice looking layout on these boards of yours BTW and looks like your pricing is pretty fan friendly. Thumbs up! You could probably stuff it in a regular envelope, and slap 2 forever stamps on it for shipping in the US! Heh. I bought a SDRAM module for $3 bucks on eBay, he charged $2 for shipping and that's what he did, sent it to me in an envelope with 2 forever stamps! So shipping cost him .75 cents or whatever, the sneak! Anyway, trouble here is Steve may resdesign things again down the road, but at least this issue is just a matter of resistor choices.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 04:42:35 PM by NightWolve »

cjameslv

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 938
Re: MOD GUIDE - Universal RGB-to-YPbPr/Component Circuit & Mod [8/24/2014]
« Reply #247 on: October 09, 2014, 05:22:41 PM »
My v2 board arrived today. I normally build alot of my mods but this one was so slim and sleek i decided to get the pre-made and forgo the building stage and go straight to the installing one. I'll post my thoughts on this board once i'm done installing & reviewing it.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 04:42:01 PM by cjameslv »

turbokon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2181
Re: MOD GUIDE - Universal RGB-to-YPbPr/Component Circuit & Mod [8/24/2014]
« Reply #248 on: October 10, 2014, 01:31:36 AM »

My v2 board arrived today. I normally build alot of my mods but this one was so slim and sleek i decided to get the pre-made and forgo the building stage and go straight to the installing one. I'll post my thoughts on this board once i'm done installing & reviewing it.




Awesome, notice R19, R20 and R21 are empty.  Those are for other systems application.  Thesteve already confirmed 75ohms there will work for the SNES and Genesis.  We still need to test for other systems.
Turbo fan since 1991 after owning my first system.

Check out my website:)
www.tg16pcemods.com

cjameslv

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 938
Re: MOD GUIDE - Universal RGB-to-YPbPr/Component Circuit & Mod [8/24/2014]
« Reply #249 on: October 10, 2014, 05:54:49 AM »

Awesome, notice R19, R20 and R21 are empty.  Those are for other systems application.  Thesteve already confirmed 75ohms there will work for the SNES and Genesis.  We still need to test for other systems.

We have some great guys on this forum devoted to develop and figure out these mods. I really appreciate it!

Helder

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: MOD GUIDE - Universal RGB-to-YPbPr/Component Circuit & Mod [8/24/2014]
« Reply #250 on: October 10, 2014, 07:29:49 AM »
Nice board! I guess I must have missed that 2k resistor on the schematic so I will give that a shot and see if changing the 15ohm to something higher might help. The Blue isn't the issue it's the green instead of black and I post a screen shot if you guys want to see what the issue is.

thesteve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2952
Re: MOD GUIDE - Universal RGB-to-YPbPr/Component Circuit & Mod [8/24/2014]
« Reply #251 on: October 10, 2014, 04:57:41 PM »
screenies help

NightWolve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5277
Re: MOD GUIDE - Universal RGB-to-YPbPr/Component Circuit & Mod [8/24/2014]
« Reply #252 on: October 11, 2014, 06:22:23 PM »
My test calls for more resistance on green so still wanna see what happens if you try that idea.

1) Red = 500/.299  = 1672 Ohms
2) Green = 500/.587 = 852 Ohms
3) Blue = 500/.114 = 4386 Ohms

Just pointing out on blue that there was a mistake on the schematic and you wound up building a board with it. If my test/idea is no good, you wanna default back to Steve's generic values and just up resistance on green in your case.

thesteve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2952
Re: MOD GUIDE - Universal RGB-to-YPbPr/Component Circuit & Mod [8/24/2014]
« Reply #253 on: October 11, 2014, 07:05:19 PM »
important point to make
the resistor values will have a much higher impact at high light (near white)
also the pots are for green balancing
the red pot sets the cross point between green and red
the blue pot sets the cross point between green and blue

Helder

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: MOD GUIDE - Universal RGB-to-YPbPr/Component Circuit & Mod [8/24/2014]
« Reply #254 on: October 12, 2014, 02:29:42 PM »
Sorry I haven't posted any results just been a busy weekend, but tomorrow is a free day to get cracking on it. Also I heard that there are ways to make a similar circuit with an op-amp and some resistors, ever look into this steve?