Author Topic: ACD games... feasible?  (Read 3172 times)

esteban

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Re: ACD games... feasible?
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2013, 05:33:20 PM »
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Jammaniaclord

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Re: ACD games... feasible?
« Reply #61 on: January 07, 2013, 10:59:14 AM »
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Bardoly

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Re: ACD games... feasible?
« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2013, 02:40:22 PM »
I just had a weird thought.

Would there be a possible way that a game could be made that could utilize the additional RAM of an Arcade Card Pro combined with the internal RAM of a Duo?  I mean, this would be a combined total RAM which would be higher than normal Arcade Card game requirements - higher than an Arcade Card Duo combined with a Duo.

I am not a programmer, so I have no clue if my above thought is feasible in any way.

SignOfZeta

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Re: ACD games... feasible?
« Reply #63 on: January 07, 2013, 02:49:30 PM »
Sure, but again, few homebrew programmers (ie: none) can even max out the SCD format, few pros could max out the AC back in the day, so the idea of anyone needing *more* than an Arcade Card is kind if unrealistic.

Honestly, the AC is stupid huge for an 8 bit system. Way more than enough.

nodtveidt

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Re: ACD games... feasible?
« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2013, 03:07:40 AM »
I just had a weird thought.

Would there be a possible way that a game could be made that could utilize the additional RAM of an Arcade Card Pro combined with the internal RAM of a Duo?  I mean, this would be a combined total RAM which would be higher than normal Arcade Card game requirements - higher than an Arcade Card Duo combined with a Duo.

I am not a programmer, so I have no clue if my above thought is feasible in any way.
When you use the ACD, you're already doing this. The ACD RAM is just a storage area; only the normal system RAM (the 256KB Duo RAM) can be used to run a program. So basically, you can use the system RAM for pretty much *just* running code, and use the ACD RAM for holding graphics and such.

Necromancer

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Re: ACD games... feasible?
« Reply #65 on: January 08, 2013, 03:12:56 AM »
He means using the 2mb Duo system ram and the extra 1.5mb ram of the AC Pro, for a total of 19.5mb instead of the AC's normal 18mb.
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nodtveidt

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Re: ACD games... feasible?
« Reply #66 on: January 08, 2013, 04:13:51 AM »
OK I see what he's saying. The answer is no.

Vecanti

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Re: ACD games... feasible?
« Reply #67 on: January 08, 2013, 11:14:55 AM »
He means using the 2mb Duo system ram and the extra 1.5mb ram of the AC Pro, for a total of 19.5mb instead of the AC's normal 18mb.

Then you would have to make an Arcade Card Duo Pro that is 19.5mb for the suitcase systems, and then someone would would say, "What if I stick my Arcade Card Duo Pro in my Duo so I have 22.5mb!"  Then you would have to make an Arcade Card Duo Pro Duo for the suitcases.  And if someone stuck that in their Duo!?!  --> Arcade Duo Card Duo Pro Duo!! 24.5mb!! This could go on a while.  :D


TheClash603

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Re: ACD games... feasible?
« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2013, 03:45:51 PM »
Sure, but again, few homebrew programmers (ie: none) can even max out the SCD format, few pros could max out the AC back in the day, so the idea of anyone needing *more* than an Arcade Card is kind if unrealistic.

Honestly, the AC is stupid huge for an 8 16 bit system. Way more than enough.

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Black Tiger

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Re: ACD games... feasible?
« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2013, 05:27:54 PM »
Sure, but again, few homebrew programmers (ie: none) can even max out the SCD format, few pros could max out the AC back in the day, so the idea of anyone needing *more* than an Arcade Card is kind if unrealistic.

Honestly, the AC is stupid huge for an 8 bit system. Way more than enough.

How much less space does 8-bit use compared to 16-bit?

As has been explained before, homebrewers already exceeded the capacity of Super CD. Mysterious Song wouldn't need to load battles if it had more space. Another upcoming game hit a roadblock because the content for single stages couldn't fit within 2 megs.
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Tatsujin

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Re: ACD games... feasible?
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2013, 11:31:13 PM »
There's no such thing like too much of RAM.

Doesn't matter if 8 or 16bit, as long it outruns any other 16bitters.

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« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 12:07:05 AM by Tatsujin »
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Arkhan

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Re: ACD games... feasible?
« Reply #71 on: January 09, 2013, 03:10:00 AM »
How much less space does 8-bit use compared to 16-bit?
This is a loaded question.

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As has been explained before, homebrewers already exceeded the capacity of Super CD. Mysterious Song wouldn't need to load battles if it had more space.
Neither would a lot of RPGs on the PCE SCD.  It doesn't mean the capacity was exceeded.  It just means it's working within the normal constraints of the system. 

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Another upcoming game hit a roadblock because the content for single stages couldn't fit within 2 megs.
This again doesn't always immediately justify the extra space use. 
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Black Tiger

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Re: ACD games... feasible?
« Reply #72 on: January 09, 2013, 07:51:41 AM »
Quote
Quote
How much less space does 8-bit use compared to 16-bit?
This is a loaded question.

Why? What do you think he meant?


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Quote
As has been explained before, homebrewers already exceeded the capacity of Super CD. Mysterious Song wouldn't need to load battles if it had more space. 
Neither would a lot of RPGs on the PCE SCD.  It doesn't mean the capacity was exceeded.  It just means it's working within the normal constraints of the system.

Exactly, there's no need to limit yourself to the constraints of the outdated formats. Just as there's no need to require Super CD/System 3 if the game you want to make comfortably fits within the constraints if CD2. Unless just to have a system card warning screen, in which case it seems totally worth it to me. Couldn't Insanity have been released as a CD2 game?



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Another upcoming game hit a roadblock because the content for single stages couldn't fit within 2 megs.
This again doesn't always immediately justify the extra space use.

That's why I'm talking about instances where what you want to include doesn't fit within the smaller official formats. If you make a HuCard game and polish it off and get it running as efficiently as you can and it comes in at around 6 megs, there's no reason today to cut it down to 3 megs.

The PC Engine CD officially supports up to 18 megs per load. I agree that there's no point in creating new larger formats, but the jump to ACD isn't a jump to 18 megs full of content at all times. It only means 2+ megs at times. If a programmer doesn't yet have the skills to be efficient enough to make the game they are building take up as little space as possible, then the ACD format is perfect, as long as operating it isn't so challenging that it negates its use. I appreciate the art of crafting games for tiny rom sizes, but games today aren't built around the cost of memory.

It took the "pros" an extra 8 megs to fit the SNES SSFII onto Genesis. I don't know why anyone would demand more from honebrewers.
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TheOldMan

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Re: ACD games... feasible?
« Reply #73 on: January 09, 2013, 09:08:11 AM »
Quote
How much less space does 8-bit use compared to 16-bit?
A byte is a byte is 8 bits. Question makes no sense, actually.
Kinda like saying how much less space does 4 quarts take compared to a gallon.
The CPU is still limited by the size of the address bus (and -not- the data bus size)

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Couldn't Insanity have been released as a CD2 game?
Actually, no. It comes in a bit over 128K, which is the limit on the CD 2 card for RAM.

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The PC Engine CD officially supports up to 18 megs per load.
First, that's 18M *bits*...or 2.25 M bytes.
Second, part of that total is adcpm memory and VRAM. It's not like you can load 2.25 Mbytes of code.



spenoza

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Re: ACD games... feasible?
« Reply #74 on: January 09, 2013, 02:06:14 PM »
Quote
Couldn't Insanity have been released as a CD2 game?
Actually, no. It comes in a bit over 128K, which is the limit on the CD 2 card for RAM.

I would imagine it is technically possible Insanity could have been optimized to fit within the CD2 RAM size, but that is mostly speculation. I'm sure a lot of homebrew programming and assets could be shrunk and optimized a good bit, but we lack the quality tools the pros had at the time and we lack the full-time jobs devoted to using those tools to get optimal results  : )

Within the scope of the available tools, I think you guys are doing pretty well, all things considered.
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