Author Topic: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...  (Read 5366 times)

EvilEvoIX

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #150 on: March 23, 2013, 05:52:28 PM »
The neo geo could indeed do Mario kart.  It's a sprite monster it would just "brute force" the floor as it were. 


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Tatsujin

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #151 on: March 23, 2013, 06:17:20 PM »
so why did they then riding hero instead?
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Joe Redifer

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #152 on: March 23, 2013, 06:29:12 PM »
No, the Neo Geo can't do anything like Mode 7 (scaling with a perspective). And then asking the Neo Geo to rotate that? Not gonna happen. No way, no how. The Neo Geo couldn't do rotation. The Neo Geo couldn't even do Batman Returns as it is seen on the Sega CD.


The only reason you even know the FX is there is because you read it somewhere

It was widely advertised. SNES fanbois (your spelling) always mention it. They are very proud that the system needs to cheat to make a game like that. It's like saying "My Dodge Durango can go over 500 mph... if it were strapped to a rocket". Sure, the Dodge IS going that fast, but it's not right to give the credit to the Durango at all. Give the credit to the rocket. Remember, it takes the SNES almost two weeks to add 2+2. This has been proven by scientific experiments on the moon.

nobody is going to program top shelf games for these systems again. All the great stuff that will ever be made for the 16-bit stuff has already been made and that's what defines the system

Nobody? Watermelon is doing some pretty damn top shelf stuff on the Genesis. They're still making games. Hell, they're even working on a SNES game. Check your sources before you say something like that.

SamIAm

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #153 on: March 23, 2013, 06:33:26 PM »
However big a fault it is that they used such a slow CPU in the SNES, it's graphics and sound functions are so much more versatile than the others that SNES games which used them well are practically un-portable.

Perhaps the best example that didn't use any enhancement chip is Super Metroid. No chip in a cart is going to make the Genesis able to run that game in a way that wouldn't be really embarrassing in a side-by-side comparison. Same with Donkey Kong Country (2 especially).

For that matter, you could take out the SFX chip from Yoshi's Island, and it would look, sound, and play mostly the same - identical in many areas. But while ports on the Genesis and TG-16 would have the core gameplay mostly intact, they would look and sound terrible. To make it run on beautifully on the Genesis, you would pretty much need a "Super Nintendo chip" inside the cartridge. It's not impossible, but it's well outside the scope of what people were doing with enhancement chips in those days.

CPU power is the one advantage that the other two systems have over the SNES, but that advantage is easily negated by a cheap co-processor. Not so for the SNES's functions. Part of what's so cool about Yoshi's Island is that whoever owned a stock SNES could buy the game (at a negligably increased price) and run it on their system. No three-digit add-ons necessary.

Joe Redifer

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #154 on: March 23, 2013, 07:01:30 PM »
Quote from: SamIAm
But while ports on the Genesis and TG-16 would have the core gameplay mostly intact, they would look and sound terrible.

Why would they sound terrible? It's not like Yoshi's Island sounds great to begin with. There's nothing special about how that particular game sounds. I can't even remember the music and I've played it recently. Sound different, yes. Look different? Definitely. Look and sound terrible? Hard to say. If they did the CGI graphics in Donkey Kong Country yeah it would look pretty bad. But I have never been a fan of those style of graphics so I think they look horrible even on the SNES. Give me 2D non-digitized sprites with just as much animation and it'll look way awesome on any system.  What the Genesis and Turbo can't do is F-Zero, one of my favorite SNES games. It's so much a SNES game that it feels wrong to play the GBA versions (they screwed 'em up anyway).
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 07:03:09 PM by Joe Redifer »

EvilEvoIX

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #155 on: March 23, 2013, 07:56:43 PM »
No, the Neo Geo can't do anything like Mode 7 (scaling with a perspective). And then asking the Neo Geo to rotate that? Not gonna happen. No way, no how. The Neo Geo couldn't do rotation. The Neo Geo couldn't even do Batman Returns as it is seen on the Sega CD.

I think you misunderstand what the Neo Geo can and cannot do.  The biggest issue would be the floor which would be sprites, large animated sprites, that can be manipulated.  We went over this in depth on sega-16.  The system
Can move a lot of stuff and fast.  Also if we are going to allow helper chips SMK had a chip to help with the rotation.


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esteban

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #156 on: March 24, 2013, 12:50:44 AM »
FINAL CONSENSUS: I am glad we all reached a final, conclusive verdict on this debate. Namely... Genesis sucks. SNES, TG-16 and XaviX are superior in all aspects.

THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING!

« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 12:57:03 AM by esteban »
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EvilEvoIX

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #157 on: March 24, 2013, 02:03:03 AM »
FINAL CONSENSUS: I am glad we all reached a final, conclusive verdict on this debate. Namely... Genesis sucks. SNES, TG-16 and XaviX are superior in all aspects.

THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING!




Well how the f*ck am I supposed to argue with this?


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Tatsujin

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #158 on: March 24, 2013, 02:08:41 AM »
Well how the f*ck am I supposed to argue with this?

You shouldn't.
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Black Tiger

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #159 on: March 24, 2013, 04:06:08 AM »
No, the Neo Geo can't do anything like Mode 7 (scaling with a perspective). And then asking the Neo Geo to rotate that? Not gonna happen. No way, no how. The Neo Geo couldn't do rotation. The Neo Geo couldn't even do Batman Returns as it is seen on the Sega CD.


I think you misunderstand what the Neo Geo can and cannot do.  The biggest issue would be the floor which would be sprites, large animated sprites, that can be manipulated.  We went over this in depth on sega-16.  The system
Can move a lot of stuff and fast.  Also if we are going to allow helper chips SMK had a chip to help with the rotation.

You're talking about a fmv game now.

If you at least remember the Neo Geo tech talk from sega-16 (given that none of the PCE stuff stuck), then you know that the Neo Geo can't even do the same level of parallax as SNES and Genesis, because it's stuck using huge columns of sprites for everything and, because of the deisgn, it can't render any kind of realtime effects through CPU horsepower. The Neo Geo is the best there is at doing Neo Geo style game, but it can't do anything else.
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EvilEvoIX

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #160 on: March 24, 2013, 05:58:18 AM »
No, the Neo Geo can't do anything like Mode 7 (scaling with a perspective). And then asking the Neo Geo to rotate that? Not gonna happen. No way, no how. The Neo Geo couldn't do rotation. The Neo Geo couldn't even do Batman Returns as it is seen on the Sega CD.


I think you misunderstand what the Neo Geo can and cannot do.  The biggest issue would be the floor which would be sprites, large animated sprites, that can be manipulated.  We went over this in depth on sega-16.  The system
Can move a lot of stuff and fast.  Also if we are going to allow helper chips SMK had a chip to help with the rotation.

You're talking about a fmv game now.

If you at least remember the Neo Geo tech talk from sega-16 (given that none of the PCE stuff stuck), then you know that the Neo Geo can't even do the same level of parallax as SNES and Genesis, because it's stuck using huge columns of sprites for everything and, because of the deisgn, it can't render any kind of realtime effects through CPU horsepower. The Neo Geo is the best there is at doing Neo Geo style game, but it can't do anything else.


Again you misunderstand the Neo Geo's capabites.  It can't do parallax because it doesn't have back grounds nor does it need too.  All it does is make massive animated sprites and does so extremely well.  That alone forms a moving animated background and That alone can make almost anything needed such as shrinking and growing a sprite without pixelating it like the SNES does.  Any rotation needed would simply be animated.  Not like a fmv but a real time moving encironment at lightning speed.  It has the brute force to do so.  Riding hero is a launch turd but a more capable programmer with near a gig of cart space can do as he pleases with 2d sprites.  He'll even a bare sega genesis can do it to a lesser extent just based off its CPU speed.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 06:04:07 AM by EvilEvoIX »


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Joe Redifer

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #161 on: March 24, 2013, 07:21:26 AM »
I think it is YOU who is misunderstanding the Neo Geo or at least its developers. A bunch of sprites for the floor would look nothing like a true Mode 7™ graphic. Animated rotation would be awful. Recall that Mode 7™ moves at 60fps. How many Neo Geo games have distinct 60fps animation? Likely none ever. But these tiles would need to have a lot of animation at 60fps. What if the player turns slowly? Even that slow turn will need to be animated at 60fps so there'd need to be hundreds and hundreds of frames for each tile and some a$$hole needs to animate that. Every single part of the track will need this animation. That'd be more animation than any game has ever had. Then they'd have to program it to it doesn't look all jumbly/segmented. Good luck because Neo Geo scaling often looks segmented. Oh, and it can get blocky just like the SNES. That's a developer decision to up or downscale. The Genesis can do Mario Kart like this as well.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 07:23:26 AM by Joe Redifer »

EvilEvoIX

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #162 on: March 24, 2013, 08:52:06 AM »
A true mode 7 requires additional hardware.  Just because things can get blocky doesn't mean it will.  More often then not that particular sprite will be huge and then shrunk down.  Again the neo is more then capable enough to create a series if animated sprite tires to mimic what ever you need in 2D.  The system still hasn't been maxed out yet.  It's main weakness is the arcade only setup.  It is more limited than the SNES controller especially the shoulder buttons.  The only way to power slide (which defines the kart series entirely) would be some series button mashing.  It would be ugly for sure.


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Black Tiger

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #163 on: March 24, 2013, 01:22:36 PM »
Again you misunderstand the Neo Geo's capabites.  It can't do parallax because it doesn't have back grounds nor does it need too.  All it does is make massive animated sprites and does so extremely well.  That alone forms a moving animated background and That alone can make almost anything needed such as shrinking and growing a sprite without pixelating it like the SNES does.  Any rotation needed would simply be animated.  Not like a fmv but a real time moving encironment at lightning speed.  It has the brute force to do so.  Riding hero is a launch turd but a more capable programmer with near a gig of cart space can do as he pleases with 2d sprites.  He'll even a bare sega genesis can do it to a lesser extent just based off its CPU speed.


I was talking about the kind of layered background scrolling that the Neo Geo can do. All of this was covered in the sega-16 discussion you referenced. The Neo Geo can only render a limited number of sprites at once and it can only do 16 pixel wide sprites (but they can be as tall as 512 pixels). Doing the types of games that the Neo Geo does quickly approaches its sprite bandwidth limits. The system was more or less maxed out bitd. Also, because of the unique hardware design, it can't use any of its "brute force" to render anything original on the fly the way that regular consoles and computers do, no matter how simple or complex. So no rotation, no Doom/Face Ball style graphics, no polygons, no wire frame. It literally can only do the kind of 2D games that its library consists of. The Genesis is the only 16-bit generation console to have much success rendering on the fly using shear brute force.

It also cannot "grow" sprites at all. The SNES can only scale up a single tile layer, so it starts perfect and then the pixels get bigger, but remains relatively proportionate. The Neo Geo can only scale down or "shrink" sprites. So it only looks perfect at the largest size, but distorts as soon as it begins shrinking, as detail is rapidly lost (unlike how the SNES simply enlarges the detail).


Neo Geo style down-scaling <---- ORIGINAL -----> SNES style up-scaling




Both the shrunken and grown images are shown at uneven integers, so you can see what the distortion looks like when it isn't blown up to 200%, 400%, etc. The Neo Geo style shrinking rapidly ruins the image, so it's no good for the kind of sprite scaling games you are suggesting. It would have to just use all animation, essentially fmv for the backgrounds, like Fast Striker does.


Here is that shrunken sprite evenly scaled back up 400% and the up-scaled sprite doubled to show the difference in distortion-





Riding hero is only doing the kind of racing background that 8-bit consoles do. It just shrinks sprites to save on space. Otherwise it's no different than Hang On for SMS. Only the SNES and later consoles can do the kind of Mode 7 that F-Zero does. Mode 7 created an entire new genre of racing gameplay. The old kind is still fun, but Mode 7 was something different and potentially deeper, just as fully 3D games are beyond Mode 7.

The Neo Geo isn't a super powerful console, it's just good at doing the one type of graphics that it can do. Compared to the Saturn and Playstation, the Neo Geo is overall on par with the PC Engine, Genesis and SNES.
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EvilEvoIX

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #164 on: March 25, 2013, 04:48:13 AM »
I was talking about the kind of layered background scrolling that the Neo Geo can do. All of this was covered in the sega-16 discussion you referenced.



Yes, indeed it was, here is a nice quote from a a member with an understanding of programming between these consoles and what they can and cannot do.

Quote from: tomaitheous;349944
Yeah, Neo Geo had some impressive specs compared to the home systems. But then again, it's an arcade system.

 No BG layer, but it was a fixed overlay window. Sprites are chained to make huge single sprites (done in hardware rather than software). The whole change of sprites are scaled both X and Y. Well, scalable via shrinking. And impressive pixel bandwidth for such type of an object system (it's all raster, no blitter like the Sega arcade systems). 1536 sprite pixels per scanline. That's easily up to 3 *real* BG layers and a shit load of sprites still. A scanline interrupt can change the position of the first sprite of any chained step, giving warping effects on a sprite level (which no other 16bit home system can do, they can only do per background type effects). It has 256 16color palettes (4096 colors per screen), but it also has an alternate buffer that you can switch on any scanline. The master palette is 32k colors (but you have set a bit to get a slightly darker 32k palette for a total of 65k).

 For 3D games like Outrun or Cotton or even Galaxy Force, it would be a big step up from the SNES or Genesis. It would benefit better for the 3D chips like the SFX and SVP since you could fill and flip the result immediately, instead of the slower transfers rates of the GEN/SNES. And more colors for the frame buffer too, since layering isn't going to be a dig deal (it won't effect transfer rates and thus frame rates).




Taken right from the thread you mentioned too BTW.  I think the biggest issue is "Mode 7" meaning that is it's name like "Xerox" or any other issue where the name of a company is used as a verb to describe many other things.  Mode seven is simply, as defined by sources and Wiki "The Super NES console has eight modes, numbered from 0 to 7, for displaying background layers, the last one (background mode 7) having a single layer that can be scaled and rotated."

It only works on backgrounds.  The Neo however can work MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE, larger then the screen if needed in multiple layers AND animated.  So is it exactly a SNES MODE 7 trick?  No, however it can be done and with better results from the Neo's power.

Here is the thread in question if you care to brush up on some history.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?16416-What-are-the-real-Neo-Geo-capabilities/page5


 The Neo Geo can only render a limited number of sprites at once and it can only do 16 pixel wide sprites (but they can be as tall as 512 pixels). Doing the types of games that the Neo Geo does quickly approaches its sprite bandwidth limits. The system was more or less maxed out bitd. Also, because of the unique hardware design, it can't use any of its "brute force" to render anything original on the fly the way that regular consoles and computers do, no matter how simple or complex. So no rotation, no Doom/Face Ball style graphics, no polygons, no wire frame. It literally can only do the kind of 2D games that its library consists of. The Genesis is the only 16-bit generation console to have much success rendering on the fly using shear brute force.

It also cannot "grow" sprites at all. The SNES can only scale up a single tile layer, so it starts perfect and then the pixels get bigger, but remains relatively proportionate. The Neo Geo can only scale down or "shrink" sprites. So it only looks perfect at the largest size, but distorts as soon as it begins shrinking, as detail is rapidly lost (unlike how the SNES simply enlarges the detail).


Neo Geo style down-scaling <---- ORIGINAL -----> SNES style up-scaling




Both the shrunken and grown images are shown at uneven integers, so you can see what the distortion looks like when it isn't blown up to 200%, 400%, etc. The Neo Geo style shrinking rapidly ruins the image, so it's no good for the kind of sprite scaling games you are suggesting. It would have to just use all animation, essentially fmv for the backgrounds, like Fast Striker does.


Here is that shrunken sprite evenly scaled back up 400% and the up-scaled sprite doubled to show the difference in distortion-





Riding hero is only doing the kind of racing background that 8-bit consoles do. It just shrinks sprites to save on space. Otherwise it's no different than Hang On for SMS. Only the SNES and later consoles can do the kind of Mode 7 that F-Zero does. Mode 7 created an entire new genre of racing gameplay. The old kind is still fun, but Mode 7 was something different and potentially deeper, just as fully 3D games are beyond Mode 7.

The Neo Geo isn't a super powerful console, it's just good at doing the one type of graphics that it can do. Compared to the Saturn and Playstation, the Neo Geo is overall on par with the PC Engine, Genesis and SNES.



A lot of what you said was proven wrong in discussion wrong ago, namely being maxed out on sprites and the "Brute Force" effect which is indeed possible and has been done so the discussion is moot.  I think you were not aware of the sprite chaining effect and how fast it is and how much room it can cover.  With almost limitless capacity and instant access to ROM space it could be done and Very well.  However if you limit the ROM to say 4MB or 8MB, problems do indeed occur and the "Brute Force" effect is limited so a chip like the SNES needed in addition to it's hardware to run the game may be in order.

I understand the Neo Doesn't grow sprites but it does indeed shrink a HIGH quality image and then can grow it back up again.  Benefits of a Massive ROM.  The SNES brings up a much lower quality image and the pixels get as big as your head.


Riding Hero for a lack of a better word is Dog Shit.  That said it is more of a Racing RPG with a lot of elements to save and designed as a quarter muncher.  Even for 1990-1991 it was a bad looking game but has a lot of elements below the surface.  The cart also has a Head Phone Jack port that allows you to link two games together to play two player, this is on both the home and arcade carts.

That said there is a lot more the Neo can do that you are not away of, it does so in it's own style and grace.


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