Author Topic: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...  (Read 5452 times)

Necromancer

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #165 on: March 25, 2013, 06:00:35 AM »
Evo apparently has his head in the sand and/or is mildly retarded, so I won't bother responding to his drivel.  [-(

And when I say "can't" I mean. Never ever ever will. Tech demos and stats are f*cking useless...

And this is why you come off sounding like a tool.  It serves absolutely no purpose to say system 'x' can't do game 'y', when you really mean game 'y' is only on system 'x'.  No f*cking shit; way to state the obvious.

SNES can't do Timeball!
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Joe Redifer

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #166 on: March 25, 2013, 06:17:27 AM »
SNES can downscale and upscale (but downscaling takes more memory since the original object must be larger).

As for the Neo Geo ONLY being able to downscale, that's probably true, but the title screen of Alpha Mission 2 is pretty block-tastic.

EvilEvoIX

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #167 on: March 25, 2013, 06:17:40 AM »
Evo apparently has his head in the sand and/or is mildly retarded, so I won't bother responding to his drivel.  [-(

And when I say "can't" I mean. Never ever ever will. Tech demos and stats are f*cking useless...

And this is why you come off sounding like a tool.  It serves absolutely no purpose to say system 'x' can't do game 'y', when you really mean game 'y' is only on system 'x'.  No f*cking shit; way to state the obvious.

SNES can't do Timeball!


No need for being rude if someone does not agree with you, however I think we have thoroughly hijacked this thread.  That said let's refrain and if you wish to continue via PM or create a dedicated thread please let me know.

FYI looking at timeball.  No idea this existed.


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esteban

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #168 on: March 25, 2013, 06:49:48 AM »
No need for being rude if someone does not agree with you, however I think we have thoroughly hijacked this thread.  That said let's refrain and if you wish to continue via PM or create a dedicated thread please let me know.

FYI looking at timeball.  No idea this existed.






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Black Tiger

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #169 on: March 25, 2013, 07:32:09 AM »
SNES can downscale and upscale (but downscaling takes more memory since the original object must be larger).

As for the Neo Geo ONLY being able to downscale, that's probably true, but the title screen of Alpha Mission 2 is pretty block-tastic.

Up until recent years I believed that the SNES scaled up and down, until I read comments saying otherwise. It's cool to learn that it really can go both ways. No matter what the technical limitations are, SNES Mode 7 can do smooth 3D like environments. The most the Neo Geo could do is super scaler style games. Still cool, but very dfferent.
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Black Tiger

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #170 on: March 25, 2013, 12:35:05 PM »
Quote
Taken right from the thread you mentioned too BTW.  I think the biggest issue is "Mode 7" meaning that is it's name like "Xerox" or any other issue where the name of a company is used as a verb to describe many other things.  Mode seven is simply, as defined by sources and Wiki "The Super NES console has eight modes, numbered from 0 to 7, for displaying background layers, the last one (background mode 7) having a single layer that can be scaled and rotated."

It only works on backgrounds.  The Neo however can work MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE, larger then the screen if needed in multiple layers AND animated.  So is it exactly a SNES MODE 7 trick?  No, however it can be done and with better results from the Neo's power.

Here is the thread in question if you care to brush up on some history.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?16416-What-are-the-real-Neo-Geo-capabilities/page5


When I talked about discussions that broke down how and why the Neo Geo couldn't do any kind of rendering on the fly, I wasn't referring to older discussions which predate that revelation. :roll:

Here is a relevant thread if you care to brush up on some history.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?17301-How-capable-would-the-Neo-Geo-MVS-AES-be-in-3D-polygon-graphics



After 3 pages of discussing why the Neo Geo can't render original graphics, this nugget pops up-


Quote from: Kamahl;369667
Quote from: evilevoix;369663
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d50YE00hO98

Couldn't you cheat a little?  Look at the game above, how about a rendered car and then a lot of frames of animation for the track?


Congratulations, you've just made an FMV game lool. Not a 3D game.



All of the possible work-arounds involved first creating a new type of cart with special ram to counter the Neo Geo's design flaw and then figure out a way to actually get that to work with the hardware...

You continued to propose the same stuff that you're trying to push here (I guess you thought that this forum lacks tech/programming experts). After your fmv-like suggestions were shot down, you asked about using a SFX2 style chip and yes it might work in theory... if you add it to that special cart you'd have to create first... but only after you figure out a way to get the Neo Geo hardware to interface correctly with the special memory on the special cart. So you can stick a good chunk of whole new console inside of a Neo Geo cart... and if it turns out that it is possible to actually get the Neo Geo hardware to make use of it... then you might be able to render something original. But otherwise, as I said, the Neo Geo can't do polygons and other stuff, even though the PCE, Genesis & SNES can.



Quote from: Kamahl;370593
Quote from: evilevoix;370583
What makes the MD superior to 3D type games over the Neo Geo?  The Neo couldn’t pull off something like the RESQ bonus stage?


It can but only with a special cart, the VDP reads from ROM directly so for the CPU to be able to render in software, you'd need to have some RAM on cart that the VDP would read thinking it was ROM.
I also thought it would be better at it then the MD (better processor, only having to worry about splitting the graphics horizontally..., taking advantage of the shrinking capabilities) but that's not the case.



« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 01:02:21 PM by Black Tiger »
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Tatsujin

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #171 on: March 25, 2013, 03:38:59 PM »
Lol, so he's debatting the same shit over here again, as he already did on Sega-16, and on which his ignorant blubbering was already quashed?

I suggest evilevoix to insert a full SFC into a Neo Geo cart
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roflmao

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #172 on: March 25, 2013, 03:53:24 PM »






For some reason, this makes absolute sense to me.  In fact I think I was about bout to post the very same response.

Tatsujin

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #173 on: March 25, 2013, 04:24:40 PM »
I have one question regarding the NGs minus scaling ability (since I'm not one of those self-proclaimed experts). If the NG only can shrink a sprite from its original size to small and back again to original (like in Aof, Samo etc.), why does the cars etc. in riding hero getting all pixelated when they approaching near to the screen? Why not using the most near as the original size, so that it can't get pixelated in the first place? How can it even get pixlated (like segas super scaler, or SFC stuff), when the NG isn't capable of scale up stuff?
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EvilEvoIX

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #174 on: March 25, 2013, 05:03:05 PM »
When I talked about discussions that broke down how and why the Neo Geo couldn't do any kind of rendering on the fly, I wasn't referring to older discussions which predate that revelation. :roll:
Here is a relevant thread if you care to brush up on some history.
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?17301-How-capable-would-the-Neo-Geo-MVS-AES-be-in-3D-polygon-graphics



After 3 pages of discussing why the Neo Geo can't render original graphics, this nugget pops up-


Quote from: Kamahl;369667
Quote from: evilevoix;369663
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d50YE00hO98

Couldn't you cheat a little?  Look at the game above, how about a rendered car and then a lot of frames of animation for the track?


Congratulations, you've just made an FMV game lool. Not a 3D game.



All of the possible work-arounds involved first creating a new type of cart with special ram to counter the Neo Geo's design flaw and then figure out a way to actually get that to work with the hardware...

You continued to propose the same stuff that you're trying to push here (I guess you thought that this forum lacks tech/programming experts). After your fmv-like suggestions were shot down, you asked about using a SFX2 style chip and yes it might work in theory... if you add it to that special cart you'd have to create first... but only after you figure out a way to get the Neo Geo hardware to interface correctly with the special memory on the special cart. So you can stick a good chunk of whole new console inside of a Neo Geo cart... and if it turns out that it is possible to actually get the Neo Geo hardware to make use of it... then you might be able to render something original. But otherwise, as I said, the Neo Geo can't do polygons and other stuff, even though the PCE, Genesis & SNES can.



Quote from: Kamahl;370593
Quote from: evilevoix;370583
What makes the MD superior to 3D type games over the Neo Geo?  The Neo couldn’t pull off something like the RESQ bonus stage?


It can but only with a special cart, the VDP reads from ROM directly so for the CPU to be able to render in software, you'd need to have some RAM on cart that the VDP would read thinking it was ROM.
I also thought it would be better at it then the MD (better processor, only having to worry about splitting the graphics horizontally..., taking advantage of the shrinking capabilities) but that's not the case.




The threads and posts I have followed and the hardware I have studied have shown the Neo can indeed render polygons if needed.  It can also do a game like Mario Kart if needed.  Some camps agree on this some camps do not.  That said I will have to assume you just didn’t read my post from other members and programmers.  Neither of us are experts her not have we published a game for these systems.

That said you have to follow what the hardware is made of, it’s speed, and what it can do REALISTICALLY.  All the suggestions I have made were made there on Sega-16 and some were agreed upon such as minor polygon games in my previous post. We are also ignoring that the SNES required special chips to do mode 7, why is that constantly being ignored?

That said and again the Neo could do a Mode 7 style effect if needed.  In fact I’ll show you a lesser Hardware configuration (Megadrive) doing so.



The above is Pier Solar, using a stock Sega genesis (NO SEGA CD HERE) to scale and rotate on the fly using the tried and true Motorola 6800 series chip.  The SNES requires additional hardware to do this.  

Again same quote from the same member you quoted to keep this apples to apples.

Quote from: Kamahl;350512
All the standard MegaDrive/SNES/PCE stuff can be done and better, on rails 3D games with sprites (like Soulstar) are easy too.
The free roaming stages aren't though, at least not without a lot of prerendered animation or other strange tricks to get it done.
Same goes for mode 7 racers, although something like batman and robin for the Sega CD can probably be done (and that style is much better IMO).
3D games (like starfox) can be done as well in the same way as the 3D stages in ResQ, but with more polygons.
Wolfenstein 3D might be possible too.

Just keep ignoring this?  IDK?
Again, it’s what you make the system do and what your market is.  The Neo Go has a joy stick and 4 buttons, by far its greatest limiting factor.  A Mario Kart style game would be weird based upon the control scheme so it stays to its arcade roots.

Oh and if you want to program 3D on the Neo Geo, it can be done again with TRICKS, always a way.

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That said you argue the Neo needs RAM to write the grafx to, Mode 7 style or polygons which the Neo Geo Motorola is MORE than capable of doing beyond any 16 bit console of the day, yet some developers just, oh what's that word I liked to use....BRUTE FORCE, that's it.  Just tricks and pixels is all it is.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 05:57:32 AM by EvilEvoIX »


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I already dropped him a message on there and he did not reply back, so f*ck him, and his cunt wife.

esteban

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #175 on: March 26, 2013, 04:53:28 PM »

STATUS: ... ... ...

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jeffhlewis

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #176 on: March 26, 2013, 05:19:59 PM »
YOU STILL AIN'T BOUGHT A SEGA CD?


Tatsujin

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #177 on: March 26, 2013, 05:44:36 PM »
I have one question regarding the NGs minus scaling ability (since I'm not one of those self-proclaimed experts). If the NG only can shrink a sprite from its original size to small and back again to original (like in Aof, Samo etc.), why does the cars etc. in riding hero getting all pixelated when they approaching near to the screen? Why not using the most near as the original size, so that it can't get pixelated in the first place? How can it even get pixlated (like segas super scaler, or SFC stuff), when the NG isn't capable of scale up stuff?

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Joe Redifer

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #178 on: March 26, 2013, 06:42:15 PM »

SamIAm

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Re: Just played Lords Of Thunder for the sega cd ...
« Reply #179 on: March 27, 2013, 03:57:27 AM »
I'm new to the Neo-Geo debate, but if the VDP only sees memory that is read-only and is not accessible by the CPU, then obviously software rendering of anything is out the window. Unless you use...as everyone has said...a special cart that makes the memory writable and copies in whatever the CPU has drawn.

The Oxygene cube video is neat, but I'd be surprised if there was much more you could get out of that technique than what they're showing.

Also:
Quote
We are also ignoring that the SNES required special chips to do mode 7, why is that constantly being ignored?

What? Not in the cartridge, it didn't. Mario Kart used a DSP chip, but F-Zero used nothing.