Author Topic: Girly CD's part of complete set?  (Read 2406 times)

TheClash603

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Re: Girly CD's part of complete set?
« Reply #90 on: April 06, 2013, 06:42:43 AM »
If a game has link cable capabilities, thus can only played in its entirety on a Turbo Express...  does this disqualify it as being a Turbografx game?

Only one set of hardware can play the game fully and that hardware is not the base system.

DragonmasterDan

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Re: Girly CD's part of complete set?
« Reply #91 on: April 06, 2013, 06:52:53 AM »
If a game has link cable capabilities, thus can only played in its entirety on a Turbo Express...  does this disqualify it as being a Turbografx game?

Only one set of hardware can play the game fully and that hardware is not the base system.

It's not about playing it in it's entirety. The question is does basic functionality of the game work on multiple configurations. If yes, then it's a TurboGrafx game by my count.

If it only works on one configuration it's a game powered by the architecture specific to that hardware configuration.
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SignOfZeta

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Re: Girly CD's part of complete set?
« Reply #92 on: April 06, 2013, 08:58:18 AM »


The LA itself produces whatever video and sound are on the disc, provides overlay capabilities, responds to specific commands from the PAC (play, stop, skip) and...I'm not sure it it can actually do anything else. All that stuff is built into every LD player, come to think of it. Somehow the PAC reads code from the LDROM2s/MegaLDs, but I'm not sure exactly how. That might actually just be hidden in the digital audio tracks and completely transparent to the LA itself.



The LA loads almost everything used during the game into it's digital memory and then overlays the video from that. There's a resolution difference when an LA games video is played back just as LD video compared to when played during a game since the stored digital memory outputs at a lower resolution. There's also a little digital video light on the front that indicates the digital memory is in use most of the time if you're playing an LA game where it has moving video. Generally speaking it's not actively streaming stuff off the disc, but is loading what's needed for the next 15 or so seconds into digital memory.


Two things:

1) My point of bringing up what is actually in the LA was the illustrate that while you think of the CDROM2 system as being more "true" or "normal" it was, honestly, a much larger upgrade, a bigger departure, from the standard PCE than the LA was. The LA's duties are almost totally analog. Everything important is in the PAC (including all the stuff normally built into the IFU), which is clearly a Turbografx. While the stuff in an LA certainly isn't in any other PCE accessory, its standard stuff in many many many LD players. My point: the LA basically just plays LDs. The CDROM2 systems don't just "play CDs" they do much more.

2) I'm NOT an expert on the LA or really even Laserdisc in general, but from the brief period time I've spend with the system I'm pretty sure you are misunderstanding the way it works. The digital memory used in the LA is basically the same as many (possibly most) LD players at that time. The reason its low res is because of the way interlaced video works.

I will use the POWER POWER POWER of Triad Stone to illustrate my example. Some games may work in a completely different way, I don't know, like I said, limited knowledge.

On any LD player that I've seen with digital field memory the player can only store one field at a time. This function was mainly used so that people could get still frames from CLV discs. On any player a CAV disc (30 min per side) would give a very good still frame, but CLV discs (60 min per side) would just give you a blue screen. The reason for this is that CAV discs store one frame (two fields) per lap of the disc, so to get a still pause you just keep the laser where it is and keep reading the exact same spot over and over. On a CLV disc the frames are all stored much more efficiently, end to end, so if you leave the laser parked you might get .8 frames per lap or 3.4 frames per lap. Therefore, to get a still frame the video had to be digitized and stored in memory. This was hella tech when it came out, quite expensive. There is a downside though, and that is that LD video is interlaced. Every field is only half a frame, every other line, and the digital frame buffer only grabs one field (ie: half a frame, every other line. This is why when you pause a CLV disc on any player (certainly most) you get a low res image, an inferior pause to a CAV disc.

This "crappy low res pause" is 240 lines in 8 bit color. The first player to have digital field memory was the psychotically quixotic and totally amazing Pioneer LD-W1. I have one of these. I also have a Pioneer CLD-99, which was a $2500 player made 2 years after the LA which contained variable noise resistance, 3D comb filter, and every other bell and whistle they could throw an an LD player. It isn't the best player made, but its up there, the last of the Elite line before they were forced to add DVD functionality into their LD players and everything went to shit. The reason I bring up all these other decks is that the crappy low res pause on CLV looks identical on the LD-W1, the Laseractive, and the CLD-99. I don't know from experience, but I'm assuming it looks the same on an HLD-X0, which is the best player ever made. Now, I do know that some LD players have more memory than others, but AFAIK this is either to increase the color depth, or to allow the 3D comb filter to work (since it needs to compare frames) or more horizontal resolution, or to help with the DNR. Every paused CLV frame is still low res though. The increase in memory from one player to another was still laughably small, like 2Mb versus 4Mb or something like that. Nothing like what it takes to store video, just a field or three.

PRO TIP: if you are just playing normal movies with your LA, for God's sake remove the PAC. The PAC, for some reason, makes it so that the digital field memory is used EVEN WITH PAUSED CAV DISCS which makes for crapy CLV-quality low res still frames. It also makes its own shitty overlays.

Now, onto LA games...

When you see the live action intro and the attract reel for Triad Stone the video appears to be very high quality, but when playing the game things get much grainier. Its in 240 lines. This isn't because the LA is queuing digital video ahead, as you suggest, but because (and IMO this is brillient low tech innovation, IMO, very clever, the LA is only showing one field on purpose. Why not the other field? Because the other field is completely different video! There are basically two fields, two totally different video streams, and the LA is only showing one of them. This allows the video on LA games to be twice as dense, to take up only half as much space on the LD, and therefore to cut seek times (the bane of any FMV game) down by a considerable amount.

How do I know this? Remove any PAC from your LA and put Triad Stone in. Turn the green button off. The player now doesn't know that its a LA game because without the PAC the LA doesn't even know what an LA game even is. Its just an LD player. When you watch the Triad Stone disc you'll see things like the intro, perfect video, but when you get to the in-game footage you'll see an unfiltered version of what I just described, two video streams at once giving you basically unwatchable but recognizable garbage.

So, and again, I don't have much technical info on the LA, but I'm pretty sure there isn't anything like 15 seconds of video cache in an LA. In fact, there isn't even one second. There is 1/60 of a second, one field, the same as any decent LD player from that era, and even some VCRs. I'm not entirely sure that the video from the LA, digital or analog, is ever actually in the same piece of memory as the PCE/MD generated graphics. That is, I think they are mixed in a passive way, sort of like a 32X or the basic Play/Pause/Stop on screen display on all but the earliest LD players. There was very little, if any, new tech in a Laseractive. You could built the entire thing from whatever shit (a lot of it) they had laying around at Pioneer/Sega/NEC.

In short, while I might be missing something, I'm pretty sure that the LA doesn't do anything that any other LD player did other than have a PAC-sized hole in the front giving transport control and AV muxing capability to whatever you could put in there. It really just plays LDs, as far as I can tell. I'm pretty sure the only reason why the digital field memory system is used at all is for the occasional still frame and the strategic de-interlacing, maybe for the overlays....I think that's all it CAN do.

CLARIFICATION:

Listen, the reason I typed all this isn't because I love the LA and want people to start hoarding LA junk with their stupid US collections. Its bad enough they had to pay $100 for a Darkwing Duck (aka "Cockwing f*ck" by the people that spent money on it) they don't need the LA burden. However, it seems, DragonmasterDan, that no matter what sort of Rube Goldbergian fortress of bullshit you build to define what is "standard" or "complete"...I'm just not buying it. You clearly just think the LA is...weird and stupid. And I agree, it IS weird and stupid (also, even for something weird and stupid, they could have done a better job) but that's it. There is no reason to exclude it from any complete collection of licensed US games unless you just think its not in the spirit of what you define TG-16 to be, and that's just illogical and dishonest and far too personal. It is this logical and anti-human incongruity that causes me to hammer home my point. I don't care what you advocate collecting, but here you are advocating that people basically stop thinking when they encounter something they aren't comfortable with, and that is a much bigger issue than games. The LA simply IS a TG-16, and the NEC games for the LA simply ARE TG-16 games. You can't make it not so just because you don't want it to be so.

Free yourself from the need for hard definitions and maybe you'll realize that collecting by region or going for "complete" anything is just dumb and self destructive to begin with. If people only bought the games they actually liked they'd be happier people with a much higher percentage of stuff worth owning and spending time with.

Also: I'd like to ban anyone who says "SHMUP". I'd also like to give them a hot foot and poor sugar in their gas tank, but the ethical thing would probably just ban them.

DragonmasterDan

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Re: Girly CD's part of complete set?
« Reply #93 on: April 06, 2013, 10:18:50 AM »


How do I know this? Remove any PAC from your LA and put Triad Stone in. Turn the green button off. The player now doesn't know that its a LA game because without the PAC the LA doesn't even know what an LA game even is. Its just an LD player. When you watch the Triad Stone disc you'll see things like the intro, perfect video, but when you get to the in-game footage you'll see an unfiltered version of what I just described, two video streams at once giving you basically unwatchable but recognizable garbage.


I just did this. The LA definitely recognizes  Triad Stone as an LA game. I figured I'd record this for evidence. I don't have another LaserDisc player in my house at the moment to test the field order hypothesis, but I recall putting Triad Stone into an LD player more than ten years ago and it playing through the attract mode, then various scenes and deaths and not noticing any degradation in video quality.


Some games might be using the field order trick you mentioned. But I recall when people pulled the video for Time Gal and Triad Stone to make the Singe emulation versions, those were both higher quality video than actually playing in the LA. My understanding was that this was due to it going into digital memory.

Quote
Listen, the reason I typed all this isn't because I love the LA and want people to start hoarding LA junk with their stupid US collections. Its bad enough they had to pay $100 for a Darkwing Duck (aka "Cockwing f*ck" by the people that spent money on it) they don't need the LA burden. However, it seems, DragonmasterDan, that no matter what sort of Rube Goldbergian fortress of bullshit you build to define what is "standard" or "complete"...I'm just not buying it. You clearly just think the LA is...weird and stupid. And I agree, it IS weird and stupid (also, even for something weird and stupid, they could have done a better job) but that's it. There is no reason to exclude it from any complete collection of licensed US games unless you just think its not in the spirit of what you define TG-16 to be, and that's just illogical and dishonest and far too personal. It is this logical and anti-human incongruity that causes me to hammer home my point. I don't care what you advocate collecting, but here you are advocating that people basically stop thinking when they encounter something they aren't comfortable with, and that is a much bigger issue than games. The LA simply IS a TG-16, and the NEC games for the LA simply ARE TG-16 games. You can't make it not so just because you don't want it to be so.


Again, I think our differences here are semantic, I see them as members of the TG-16 family. But because there's no way to play them on any hardware besides the Laseractive, I see them as being Laseractive games powered by the TG-16 architecture.

Added in edit: Again, how to categorize these things are all opinion based. There's no right or wrong answer. I'm simply backing up the reasoning for my opinion.

 I shot an email to someone who might know a little more about whether or not LD games use the digital video for caching. That was my understanding of how some of them worked, but I could be mistaken.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 10:22:05 AM by DragonmasterDan »
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DragonmasterDan

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Re: Girly CD's part of complete set?
« Reply #94 on: April 06, 2013, 11:59:00 AM »
And just for some more technical background, this is with regards to Mega LDs but is important to note how the digital buffer is used. This is a link from a thread where some folks are putting together an emulator.

http://gendev.spritesmind.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=563&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=111

Here's the key part
Quote
I don't have any other LaserDisk players to test on, but I'm fairly sure the video degredation you're talking about on the LaserActive only occurs when the digital buffer is enabled, which it needs to be in order to combine the analog video signal with the Mega Drive graphics. The video signal is noticably affected when the digital buffer is enabled. I'll be ripping the video tracks with the digital buffer turned off however, so I'm hoping this is comparable to any other LaserDisk player.


As part of the mixing on at least some of the games, it appears to be going into the digital video buffer as referenced before.

Added in edit:
Some games are using the field order trick you mentioned as cited here.
http://gendev.spritesmind.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=563&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=110

Quote
Only a minority of games do that - from what I've seen so far, Blue Chicago Blues and Road Prosecutor. (Blue Chicago Blues is kind of oddball in general; it also uses its digital audio track BOTH for LA data and for standard LD digital audio. Every other game I've seen reserves the digital audio track for data and uses analogue audio exclusively for audio.)


But this isn't the norm or the rule.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 12:09:37 PM by DragonmasterDan »
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PunkicCyborg

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Re: Girly CD's part of complete set?
« Reply #95 on: April 06, 2013, 01:07:54 PM »
if you dont own the girlie games or laseractive games you arent a true turbo fan.
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vestcoat

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Re: Girly CD's part of complete set?
« Reply #96 on: April 06, 2013, 01:31:29 PM »
You clearly just think the LA is...weird and stupid.

Again, how to categorize these things are all opinion based. There's no right or wrong answer. I'm simply backing up the reasoning for my opinion.

I agree with Zeta. You're not backing up your reasoning because your reasoning changes constantly. Your argument has been a nonstop hydra: cut off a head and two take its place. Licensing, logos, hardware, vendors, manufacturing, exclusivity, digital buffers, standard-issue hardware, it doesn't stop. You're clutching at straws. A few pages ago, you were comfortable with the idea of JP LD-ROMs being PCE games. You refuted your current argument! All that mattered to you was first-party hardware, now it's multiple hardware compatibility.

There is a right or wrong answer: official games + official hardware + identical architecture = HE System. This shit is all the exact same family. LOOK. There's the LD-ROM right there with its little brothers and sisters. One big happy family.

What would it take for you to stop drawing an arbitrary line in the sand after the TG's first two software formats? LD-ROMs for sale in Toys R Us? A NEC PAC for Xmas when you were twelve? An original MSR of $149.99?
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DragonmasterDan

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Re: Girly CD's part of complete set?
« Reply #97 on: April 06, 2013, 01:41:43 PM »

I agree with Zeta. You're not backing up your reasoning because your reasoning changes constantly. Your argument has been a nonstop hydra: cut off a head and two take its place. Licensing, logos, hardware, vendors, manufacturing, exclusivity, digital buffers, standard-issue hardware, it doesn't stop. You're clutching at straws. A few pages ago, you were comfortable with the idea of JP LD-ROMs being PCE games. You refuted your current argument! All that mattered to you was first-party hardware, now it's multiple hardware compatibility.

There is a right or wrong answer: official games + official hardware + identical architecture = HE System. This shit is all the exact same family. LOOK. There's the LD-ROM right there with its little brothers and sisters. One big happy family.

What would it take for you to stop drawing an arbitrary line in the sand after the TG's first two software formats? LD-ROMs for sale in Toys R Us? A NEC PAC for Xmas when you were twelve? An original MSR of $149.99?


This discussion has definitely become a muddled mess.
There's a variety of other criteria at work, and part of this argument was debunking some of what was thrown at me.

For example, the argument that the LaserActive is merely a Super CD with a different media format and that if I accept Super CDs, I must accept LD-ROM2s. Countering that argument was the reason for going into the digital buffer rant. Because the digital buffer used for caching video is hardware that clearly isn't built into the standard TurboGrafx architecture provided by Hudson/NEC, yet is needed to operate LaserActive games.

With that said. Those things aren't actually the main reason I don't categorize it that way though they help support my position.
There are some other sub reasons for this categorization as well that I've touched on over the past few pages.
Such as the US LaserActive not being first party hardware, though licensed (one of several reasons that make it non-standard).

Putting those aside, my main reason is that LD-ROM2 games only play on the LaserActive which I see as LaserActive games. It's really that simple. I do see them as being in the same family, and I think there's different ways of looking at TurboGrafx as mentioned before. TurboGrafx as far as the family that includes all variations (much like how PC Engine would include SuperGrafx and LDROM games as well). And TurboGrafx as in the short name for the original system. They're two different things, and I see them as being separate.

With regards to what it would take for me to stop drawing the line, it would be another piece of hardware that isn't branded as being the LaserActive being able to play the LDROM2 games.

Like I've said, are they TurboGrafx games? Sure they are in the sense that they're licensed and are running on a piece of TurboGrafx licensed hardware using the same architecture. Are they TurboGrafx games in the sense that they're expandable for use on the original (or anything besides the LaserActive) hardware? No

And that's where I differentiate them.

Added in edit:
I'm not saying "No one should ever categorize these as TurboGrafx games" I'm just saying by my standards they are different enough for a variety of reasons to where a legitimate argument can be made that they should/could be excluded.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 02:04:27 PM by DragonmasterDan »
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Sparky

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Re: Girly CD's part of complete set?
« Reply #98 on: April 06, 2013, 01:48:33 PM »
if you dont own the girlie games or laseractive games you arent a true turbo fan.

What?

SignOfZeta

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Re: Girly CD's part of complete set?
« Reply #99 on: April 06, 2013, 03:44:58 PM »
Correction: I may have put Triad Stone in another LD player and that might have been where I saw the two video streams mixed. It's not a "degraded video quality" it's two videos on top of either other. Field one is one video where field two is completely different video.

EDIT: I read that link from the emulation guys. The way they talk about the frame buffer is completely in line with what I was saying. It might be able to cache a lot, but from my personal (again, limited) experience the buffer is the same as many LD players; one field.

EDIT EDIT: The Mega Drive PAC would have digital video cache functions, of course, because the Mega Drive PAC has everything that the Mega CD setup has.

However, certainly remove the PAC when watching movies.

And LDROM2s are totally TG-16 games.

And "SHMUP" is offensively stupid unless you are talking from the perspective of a 1980s UK C64 fan.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 09:39:05 PM by SignOfZeta »

esteban

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Re: Girly CD's part of complete set?
« Reply #100 on: April 07, 2013, 09:00:06 AM »

And "SHMUP" is offensively stupid unless you are talking from the perspective of a 1980s UK C64 fan.


Sadly, I cannot forgive these bastards for coining the term (I blame the Welsh influence--with their distaste for vowels and such. But that's a tangent, and debatable, since nobody actually credits the Welsh for anything!...)

Anyhoo, I appreciate the fact that you don't want to offend our brethren overseas, but I didn't just pull the word "imbecile" from a Hatris when I was ranting and raving. No, I was squarely looking at those English lads from yesteryear in the proverbial face and excoriating them for the rubbish term "shmup"  ...

Over the past decade I have read a lot of the microcomputer magazines from fair England and whilst I love them (well, Zzzappppp! and it's kin), they are GUILTY AS CHARGED.

You are too kind, Zeta

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xelement5x

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Re: Girly CD's part of complete set?
« Reply #101 on: April 08, 2013, 12:12:43 PM »
Where be the Virtual Cameraman 2?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 02:49:12 PM by xelement5x »
Gredler: spread her legs and push her down to make her more lively<br>***<br>majors: You used to be the great man, this icon we all looked up to and now your just a pico collecting 'tard...oh, how the mighty have fallen...<br>***<br>_joshuaTurbo: Sex, Lies, Rape and Arkhan. A TurboGrafx love story