Author Topic: Summer time homebrew  (Read 2719 times)

Bonknuts

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Summer time homebrew
« on: April 22, 2013, 06:34:44 AM »
Hey guys :)

 I'll be starting up a homebrew game for this summer, before I start school in the fall. I'm going about this in an ambitious manner and starting up a Kickstarter project for it. I'll be starting development on the game regardless if the Kickstarter thing falls through or not, but the goal is to get the game done by the end of August using the kickstarter funding (working on the game as a full project; 10 hours a day for 3-4 months, This will be my only job). I realize that some people are gonna frown or scuff at this (kickstarter), and that's perfectly fine. What I'm interested in, is the people that would like to see this succeed; help spread the word on the project and kickstarter, and just give it exposure outside PCE only/clique communities (there are a lot of PCE/TG fans out there that are not in a PCE/TG only community). Hell, even just some moral support would do wonders :)

 I'll have more details soon; but mean time you can get some info on my blog ( http://pcedev.wordpress.com ).

 I have to do some more research and talk with my team, but the general idea is that depending on the level money contributed on the Kickstarter project, you'll receive stuff ( a copy of the game, name in the credits, beta items, some sort of inclusion in the development process, etc. That sort of thing). If the Kickstarter goal is met, I won't need to do any pre-orders to fund the production for the physical medium, but I'll probably still do one just for limited release special editions (first 100 or so. These will be a different press CD). Ideas, feedback, WTFs, etc?

 

Arkhan

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2013, 06:49:08 AM »
I think a kickstarter for a PCE homebrew is a terrible idea for a few reasons:

1) You're officially locked in, if funding goes through.  If real life steps in, that sure will suck, and complicate things. :)  Given that you're going to school, I'd advise against it.
2) The kickstarter loot will probably breed a lot of profiteering bullshit from people who just start hocking the limited edition ones for retarded prices.  
3) You can get production funding from this forum alone without having to resort to all the kickstarter hoojoo, once the game is at that state.  Both games that used the pre-order concept here hit the production amount in like 2 days just from the PCEFXers.   Why use Kickstarter for it? :)  We got this.
4) Not using kickstarter gives you more wiggle room with deadlines.
5) You don't have to give a portion of the kickstarter fund to Kickstarter!

I'm all for the project though.    

I think it will get exposure outside of the PCE community regardless of using KS, just like the rest of the projects.  PCE Homebrew gets mentioned in magazines over in France and Germany.  There's online exposure as well on various sites too.  

People are pretty aware of us these days since Insanity, MSR, PP, and Revival Chase have hit the scenes.

So, I say, go for it, but, f*ck Kickstarter!

edit: Also, good luck finding a presser that will only press like 100 cds for a limited edition.  Most minimums are 300, and lets be honest here, you'll probably only sell 300-500 total.  Maybe more if you're SUPER lucky.  

It's PCE homebrew.   There aren't that many people interested in this stuff.   Aware of it? Yes.   Interested in buying a CD?  Not really.  

Until there's a cheaper way for the average goober to play CD games, they kinda blow the concept off.

now, ... maybe if you kickstart a project for a new Duo console....   :)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 06:52:22 AM by Arkhan »
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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touko

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2013, 06:51:52 AM »
Eh, i'am glad to see you're still alive man ;-)
This is a cool idea,i'am not a big kickstater fan, but for a pce project why not   ..

Nando

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2013, 06:55:36 AM »
pcenginefxStarterKick!

sunteam_paul

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2013, 07:14:09 AM »
Don't kickstarter it.

Don't rush it.

Just take your time and make a great game.
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KingDrool

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2013, 07:25:55 AM »
Consider this post a vote of confidence/moral support. I always love to support new games for PCE/Turbo.
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TheClash603

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2013, 08:22:44 AM »
Kick starter will just take your money.  They charge pretty substantial fees with that shit.

Do a pre-order here and that will get you your funds without having to lose $

Arkhan

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2013, 08:26:21 AM »
Kick starter will just take your money.  They charge pretty substantial fees with that shit.

Do a pre-order here and that will get you your funds without having to lose $

Exactly!  30$ish a pop, it only takes 30-40 gooners to get that preorder money!
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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_joshuaTurbo

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2013, 08:33:25 AM »
Kick starter will just take your money.  They charge pretty substantial fees with that shit.

Do a pre-order here and that will get you your funds without having to lose $

Exactly!  30$ish a pop, it only takes 30-40 gooners to get that preorder money!

I'd donate moneys now to 'pre-order' my copy.  And I wouldn't give two shits if it took you 3 years to complete the game.  ;)

Necromancer

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2013, 08:49:03 AM »
I'd donate moneys now to 'pre-order' my copy.  And I wouldn't give two shits if it took you 3 years to complete the game.  ;)

Same here; it's a much better option than giving monies to kickstarter and having to abide by their rules.  Just please, please don't do any crazy limited edition stuff, as it'll just lead to collector retard flailing.  If you want to do something to reward pre-orders like a soundtrack disc or the like, though, that'd be cool as long as the game itself (including packaging) is the same.
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Arkhan

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2013, 08:53:06 AM »
collector retard flailing. 

This is the new term for it.

[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Bonknuts

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2013, 10:31:52 AM »
I think a kickstarter for a PCE homebrew is a terrible idea for a few reasons:
[stuffs]

 You make some good points and although I've thought about some of this already - I haven't looked in depth into Kickstarter so that idea might be a bust (which means I'll probably end up doing a website, self promotion, and a paypal donation box as well as a pre-oder and investor setups). I figured I could probably get the funding for pre-orders just through fans (and my brother offered to lend some money as well, if needed), but the way I want to go about this is to treat this as a full time job and a fixed schedule. Three solid months of working on this like any full time job (10+ hours a day, 5 days a week and weekends here and there) should easily get this done. I don't want to wait years, or a year, or even six months. If I can concentrate and consolidate all my time, three months should be enough time for development and polish. I'm no stranger to working hard hours for extended periods of times (I've done up to 3 months with no days off and 10 hours days before). The problem, is paying the bills since I won't have a job that would normally do.. that. I'm still planning out all the details, so any feedback is definitely most welcome - especially from you guys that have already put out some products.

 Necromancer: I completely understand what you're saying, but there's got to be a some sort of compromise. Yeah, I'm not interested in fools reselling special edition copies for outrageous prices, but at the same time I want to reward some people with something really special. What do you guys think about if I did a special edition (doesn't matter if requires making 500 minimum copies; I can destroy the overage amount) for a really high price? Say like $300? That way, people that REALLY want it will pay for it. I.e. it's not like they're getting them for a low price just to turn around and resell it. Not that someone couldn't do that at that price, but it would deter a lot of regular folks from doing that - as in you really wanna take a resell gamble at $300? It satisfies the collector types or people that just have money, and it helps me out for the production costs (well, cost of living expense).

 I'm not really worried about the cost of physical production as I am of the cost of time for the production itself. Like I said, I REALLY want to dedicate the whole summer (hell from now till September if it was possible) just to this game and nothing else - including working. It's not unrealistic or undoable by any means, other than raising the money for it. I'll be looking into other resources as well (family, extended family, friends, investors, etc). The title says homebrew, but the approach I want to take is a little, well... more professional approach. I don't mind hard deadlines; in fact I like the challenge of it.

 It's a little early to be mentioning this, but some collaboration from some fans/devs outside of my team would be cool as well (maybe some chiptunes or such, design/polish/etc from peeps here or in the retro community in general). *If* there's any profit from this (and after divvy'ing out to others that are involved), it'll be used to help put myself through school. Even if that means something as little as $200 - hey, that'll buy some food or pay for gas, etc. Hell, I'd be happy just to break even (meaning I'd cover the cost of living expense for the production time on this). It sounds ambitious, I know.


 Here are some definite ideas that are on the table; SGX support as well as ACD support. That game won't require either and it won't really take full advantage of both, but it will be an advancement and a nod towards those owners (also because I've always wanted to do this myself; make something for those platforms). As far as a PC port, I was thinking maybe just wrap an emulator around it. Of course, that'll come after the initial development platform which is PCE first and foremost. Heh, if I get enough support for PCE platform, I'll probably forgo the PC idea altogether (people can always play it on emulation if needed). Of course I'm getting ahead of myself.

 Opinions on this?

Arkhan

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2013, 10:57:57 AM »
You make some good points and although I've thought about some of this already - I haven't looked in depth into Kickstarter so that idea might be a bust (which means I'll probably end up doing a website, self promotion, and a paypal donation box as well as a pre-oder and investor setups). I figured I could probably get the funding for pre-orders just through fans (and my brother offered to lend some money as well, if needed), but the way I want to go about this is to treat this as a full time job and a fixed schedule. Three solid months of working on this like any full time job (10+ hours a day, 5 days a week and weekends here and there) should easily get this done. I don't want to wait years, or a year, or even six months. If I can concentrate and consolidate all my time, three months should be enough time for development and polish. I'm no stranger to working hard hours for extended periods of times (I've done up to 3 months with no days off and 10 hours days before). The problem, is paying the bills since I won't have a job that would normally do.. that. I'm still planning out all the details, so any feedback is definitely most welcome - especially from you guys that have already put out some products.
Eh, don't treat this as a full time job.  The return you will get is not going to be that of a full time job.  Going into this expecting it to pay the bills is a fairly poor idea.  It's also the wrong kind of motivation for a dead console.   The point is to keep the console alive, not to make a living off of it.

Also, don't plan or assume that you can get it done in that amount of time even though you think you can.    That kind of optimism only works if you have a real, full size, experienced development team that is getting programmer salary and support from NEC/Hudson (including useful tools and manuals).

It's not the early 90s anymore, so that isn't happening.



Quote
Necromancer: I completely understand what you're saying, but there's got to be a some sort of compromise. Yeah, I'm not interested in fools reselling special edition copies for outrageous prices, but at the same time I want to reward some people with something really special. What do you guys think about if I did a special edition (doesn't matter if requires making 500 minimum copies; I can destroy the overage amount) for a really high price? Say like $300? That way, people that REALLY want it will pay for it. I.e. it's not like they're getting them for a low price just to turn around and resell it. Not that someone couldn't do that at that price, but it would deter a lot of regular folks from doing that - as in you really wanna take a resell gamble at $300? It satisfies the collector types or people that just have money, and it helps me out for the production costs (well, cost of living expense).
This sounds like a waste of money if you're going to destroy the overages, and sounds a bit shady, honestly.   

It'd have to be a really awesome special edition for such a high price to be justified.  This means you will be spending a pretty hefty amount just to produce the limited edition... so you won't be gaining anything.



Quote

 I'm not really worried about the cost of physical production as I am of the cost of time for the production itself. Like I said, I REALLY want to dedicate the whole summer (hell from now till September if it was possible) just to this game and nothing else - including working. It's not unrealistic or undoable by any means, other than raising the money for it. I'll be looking into other resources as well (family, extended family, friends, investors, etc). The title says homebrew, but the approach I want to take is a little, well... more professional approach. I don't mind hard deadlines; in fact I like the challenge of it.
I believe you brought this up once before, years ago, and I told you it was a bad idea then.  It's still a bad idea.  It's too optimistic, and profit-centric.  The Turbo is the wrong place to be if you're focusing on profits and surviving off of the earnings.

Also, what will you do that will end up being more professional than what is already being done for the Turbob?  We've got professionally pressed games distributed worldwide, with copyrights, trademarks, and advertising...

What you've said implies what's been done already is unprofessional.

 

 
Quote
It's a little early to be mentioning this, but some collaboration from some fans/devs outside of my team would be cool as well (maybe some chiptunes or such, design/polish/etc from peeps here or in the retro community in general). *If* there's any profit from this (and after divvy'ing out to others that are involved), it'll be used to help put myself through school. Even if that means something as little as $200 - hey, that'll buy some food or pay for gas, etc. Hell, I'd be happy just to break even (meaning I'd cover the cost of living expense for the production time on this). It sounds ambitious, I know.
The money you get will allow you to break even, and maybe pay for 1 semester of college, depending on rates.  If you have a larger team involved, the profits, once divvy'd out fairly, will probably allow you to buy a game or two.

 

Quote
Here are some definite ideas that are on the table; SGX support as well as ACD support. That game won't require either and it won't really take full advantage of both, but it will be an advancement and a nod towards those owners (also because I've always wanted to do this myself; make something for those platforms). As far as a PC port, I was thinking maybe just wrap an emulator around it. Of course, that'll come after the initial development platform which is PCE first and foremost. Heh, if I get enough support for PCE platform, I'll probably forgo the PC idea altogether (people can always play it on emulation if needed). Of course I'm getting ahead of myself.
Support SGX and ACD on a second game.  Don't shoot for the stars on Game #1.   When you do that, you end up just shooting yourself in the foot. 

Making a game is a lot more work than making tech demos.  Expect unforeseen delays and issues.  Expect things to go poorly.   Everything sounds doable and easy on paper until you get to it and find all kinds of issues you didn't think would happen.  When you combine that with over ambition, you end up with a project that doesn't get finished.

[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Bonknuts

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2013, 12:00:52 PM »
Quote
Also, what will you do that will end up being more professional than what is already being done for the Turbob?

Professional as it isn't a hobby. Heh... that's not very descriptive either. Hobby as in; you do it at your leisure, no hard deadline, etc. I come from the indie movie crowd/mentality; there are fan films and then there are professional micro budget films. The quality between them might now be much to differentiate from one another, if at all, but the point being in how production time is spent, resources are allocated, etc. It doesn't directly imply quality or substance, but how you go about it. And the professional micro budget films have a hobbyist flavor to them, still. There also the point that micro budget films are expected to have some sort of return (even if in the negative), but that's not the point I'm trying to make.

That's all. I want to develop a homebrew type of game (although 'indie game' would be a better term for it) on a more professional style production time frame/structure. That's what I mean. Other people have done just this and with the help of Kickstarter or other resources. I want to allocate a chunk of time to complete this project. The cost of that is my living expense, which are pretty low at the moment (probably lower than almost any member here living on their own), given that this is pretty much all software/code/time rather than getting to places/locations, actors, and equipment. It gives the project a much different type of mentality for the people involved. Without hard deadlines, projects will overrun their course. Look at how many homebrew projects have vastly overrun their expected time of production. I can't think of a single one that has come close to meeting the original dead line. I was on a professional film production that had some loose dead lines and it went over by two plus years; that sucked. Our production time since then has really tightened up.

 Covering my living expenses to develop the game isn't profit; that's a production expense because it's such a consolidated amount of time to dedicate to this (as opposed to in my 'free time' which spread over time is relative to nothing cost wise). Profit would be anything after that (and any other production costs). Like I said, if I can break even I'd be perfectly happy with that. If I make a little profit, then even better. But I doubt I'll make 'profit' if I just stick to the PCE platform. Hence the idea to branch out to PC (although I have no idea how that's going to even work out. At least the game will be developed so it would be just a matter of porting it). If it was all about profit, or even mostly about profit, I'd be choosing a different platform altogether (probably Genesis/MD because the user base is freaking huge in comparison). I wanna make a PCE game.

 Yeah, I know this is ambitious. I already said it was. But I'm willing to give it a try. What is it worth to you guys, to have a PCE game finished and in your hands in ~much~ less than a year? I don't know about you guys, but I don't have the patience to wait another 2-3 years for another indie/homebrew game to be developed (just talking hypothetical). Because if I did this on my spare time, that's what it's going to take it get it done. And real life issues will come into play that would possibly delay it even longer. I'd rather block off an allotted amount of time just for this and get it done and into the hands of gamers. If I lived in my parents basement, none of this would be a problem; but they don't have a basement and they sure as hell don't want their grown-ass-man of son living with them... no good. So yeah, this.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 12:04:46 PM by Bonknuts »

Arkhan

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2013, 01:40:01 PM »
The people who use Kickstarter for indie games are reaching out to a wider audience, asking for money for a project they'd not really be able to do otherwise because of dev/platform licenses, required toolkits, time, and art.   They're doing it with both profit and long-term jobs in mind.  Get enough to fund it, produce it, and then hope sales happen afterwards...

The PCE is free to develop for, and it's assumed you probably already have testing hardware.  Mednafen is free and works fine in place of real hardware for almost all testing.

and, again, you're targeting PCE, where its been proven at least twice now, that if you ask for pre-orders, you'll get your funding easily, and quickly.  Just make sure you have proof that the project is actually ready to go.

Not to mention, there is not a large PCE fanbase.  Once you do your initial sales wave, that's basically it aside from sporadic purchases every month or so.

You're more or less just asking the PCE community to toss larger sums of money at you than would normally be expected of a homebrew, simply to keep you fed/alive while you lock yourself in for a whole summer, hopefully finishing a game.   

You would have to generate A LOT of money from a small fanbase in order to keep yourself sustained during this marathon and still have money to produce the game and whatever bonus loot you come up with.   Creating that stuff isn't free either.

Not to mention, if you want to attract an outside crowd, you don't really have any previous games to demonstrate.  The majority of outside gamers will be skeptical about handing money out to someone who only has tech demos to show off.  The PCE crowd gets these things, but the other crowds may not.

Sure you could have a prototype of the current game, but without at least one finished game under your belt, I can see the non PCE loyalists being skeptical about completion.

This is especially because of all of the homebrew speedbumps that occur in all the scenes.  People are skeptics.  It happens.

I'm sorry duder, I don't see the point.  We've got a steady stream of PCE happenings as of late that are continuing to go on.  I myself am comfortable waiting for you to do whatever you are planning at a leisurely pace. 

I honestly say, if you want to make a PCE game, just make a PCE game, at your leisure.  I'd say its safe to assume everyone here, including myself will encourage you to create your game either way. 

I mean, Insanity was made during both college + work in under a year in spare time, and that included learning the hardware, figuring out the whole chiptune thing, and all of that.  Why rush things? :)
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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