Author Topic: Summer time homebrew  (Read 2731 times)

BlueBMW

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2013, 05:39:19 PM »
No matter what form / method you go about this, I will support / buy whatever the result is.  Money up front or later is fine.  I will always support homebrewers as much as I can.
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ParanoiaDragon

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2013, 08:08:24 PM »
I was thinking.  In regards to my suggestion of first starting with a smaller project(for you to see how well you do working on a game with a daily shedule), I'll re-emphasize that it be something that you would enjoy & want to do.  Whether it be an old Atari or Arcade favorite, some neato dev utility, or even remake your favorite Mega Man from the ground up on the Turbo(maybe could even use a tweaked version of the engine for your big game). 

Then, if you've done this, besides seeing yourself prepared for a schedule of coding, you'd also have something to show if you do indeed decide to do kickstarter.  You can say, look, I made a game already, now I want to do something more ambitious & need a lil' help in funding.

kiketonto

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2013, 10:57:34 PM »
Three solid months of working on this like any full time job (10+ hours a day, 5 days a week and weekends here and there) should easily get this done.
Bonknuts, if you do that, you are going to be my hero. Count on me to buy the game for sure.
And good luck with the full time work.
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Arkhan

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2013, 04:31:17 AM »
Three solid months of working on this like any full time job (10+ hours a day, 5 days a week and weekends here and there) should easily get this done.

Citation needed.

Game making isn't a walk in the park. 

Look at stuff like E.T. and Pac Man for Atari 2600.   short time frame, decent budget, horrible turnout due to rushed.

[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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shubibiman

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2013, 07:05:05 AM »
Hey, glad you've got another project. I'll forward this topic to the french community so you get as much support as possible.
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Black Tiger

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2013, 07:11:48 AM »
I havent read through everything in this thread, but I think that its worth a shot if you already have the stages, menus, systems/gameplay, etc planned out and only need to program at this point. And as long as you line up artists beforehand that you know can produce all the assets fast enough to keep up with you. Character designs and general art style should be finalized enough and at least target mockups of the pixel art should be completed before starting, just so that everyone involved is at least progressing in a straight line towards completion with a predetermined amount of work to do.

Only under such a strict timeline do I think that this is the minimum requirement to start, as opposed to an ideal launch pad. If the project is more of an unknown entity being picked away at, then you really can't know if it'll take weeks or years to complete, but I think that years will be the likely scenario if it isn't fully designed yet (unless you're doing something simple like an early 80's game). From my experience, the less planning in the earliest stages of a project, the more work and chaos you encounter down the road.

With that said I'll still support this venture however it proceeds. :)
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Bonknuts

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2013, 08:02:08 AM »
Just wanted to state a few things:

 Like I said before, I want to allocate a solid full three months into development. That doesn't mean the game will be shipped at the end of three months. There would still be a few things to tidy up, such as manual design, dealing with the pressing house and such. And I will be working on stuff before those said three months. I need to research how long is a good time period to raise such funds. We're gonna be starting May here very soon, so that would leave one month of fund raising to meet that goal. From the little bit that I've been researching about how to go about using Kickstarter, I large part of my early funding isn't going to come from the KS community itself. As the funding nears its completion, I'm more likely to attract people to pledge - even if they don't particularly have a connection to the project (and specifically since this is a game, not a movie or indie series). 60 days looks to be ok for a minimum length of fund raising (I still need to research this more), but that would mean full time development would start July, August, September. Not exactly summer (though September is summer still here in the southwest). And I'd figure the end of October to get it pressed and in my hands (assuming all goes well). I can still start development during the fund raising period as well.

 I have one other thing that I need to decided on, pretty quickly; which fund raising site to choose from. There's Indiegogo and there's Kickstarter. Indiegogo allows me to use the funds raised, even if I don't meet my goal. This is both a good and bad thing. If I'm really close to my goal, then it'll still get me through the development time. If I'm not, people will have sort of wasted their money because it won't carry me through for how I'm going about this. On the opposite side, Kickstarter requires me to meet my goal, which in turn makes it a little more reputable for people that what to donate but aren't close to the PCE community. It has a larger exposure and people will tend to help you reach your goal if you're close enough (it builds momentum). And honestly, I'd rather this be an all or nothing sort of thing. I'd hate to have raised half the goal just to have things get delayed quite a bit, because honestly that defeats the whole purpose of how I want to go about this in the first place. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. What are your guys thoughts on this? Of course I've yet to put together a formal presentation on this; I'm feeling you guys out here because you guys would be my initial strongest supporters in all of this.


Quote from: Black Tiger
I havent read through everything in this thread, but I think that its worth a shot if you already have the stages, menus, systems/gameplay, etc planned out and only need to program at this point. And as long as you line up artists beforehand that you know can produce all the assets fast enough to keep up with you. Character designs and general art style should be finalized enough and at least target mockups of the pixel art should be completed before starting, just so that everyone involved is at least progressing in a straight line towards completion with a predetermined amount of work to do.

 Very good points. I do have the story arch and character backgrounds fleshed out. Same with gameplay mechanics. I have a very clear idea of what the stages consist of (their layout and design) and how they should look, because they are tied specifically to the story and time-of-year setting (future, collapsed\shrunken civilization). I have a lot of things fleshed out that just need some basic refinement (I don't see a need to change anything at this point). But about artists... yeah. I'm pretty leery about bring people that I don't know on board. My current team consists of just three core people that I know in real life and who live here (a few more extend beyond this, but aren't considered part of the team. Mostly artists and musicians). While we both can handle art, pixel art, and music - I would like to bring more specialized people on board for that. But that is a concern; anybody outside of this team would need to be able to keep up - no excuse. If this is going to be treated in a professional and consolidated, I'll need to be able to rely on such talent that can also treat it as such. None of this; I haven't heard from you in two months - sort of thing. I'm not the greatest of pixel artists, but I'd rather be able to rely on reliable average art and than have people delaying the project or just dropping off altogether. So with that in mind, I'm going forward on this knowing what my team is capable of. If we can bring in people to enhanced these aspects of the game, then by all means I will. But I'm not going to rely on them as an 'all or nothing' sort of thing. I have a fairly clear vision of what the graphics and sound should be, but nothing has been produced for that yet.

 That said, if some people are interested, I could use some talent in helping put together some concept art/music for a presentation for the fund raiser and the website (doesn't have to end up in the final projects).


@shubibiman: Thanks :D


 

Bonknuts

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2013, 09:03:41 AM »
I was thinking.  In regards to my suggestion of first starting with a smaller project(for you to see how well you do working on a game with a daily shedule), I'll re-emphasize that it be something that you would enjoy & want to do.  Whether it be an old Atari or Arcade favorite, some neato dev utility, or even remake your favorite Mega Man from the ground up on the Turbo(maybe could even use a tweaked version of the engine for your big game).  

Then, if you've done this, besides seeing yourself prepared for a schedule of coding, you'd also have something to show if you do indeed decide to do kickstarter.  You can say, look, I made a game already, now I want to do something more ambitious & need a lil' help in funding.

 This summer is the only time that I can fully dedicate all my time to it. I'll be starting school in the fall, and while I'll still have free time to work on a game then, it wouldn't be the same. Real life stuff will get in the way; stress, part-time job, etc. If I wait, then that means waiting until next summer. School is a huge priority for me and even though the first year is going to be pretty light ('cause I'll just be ramping up) - it still takes priority (it's my future, after all). As far as coding and developing 5 days a week at 10+ hours a day, I've done similar with coding. I've done similar with other stuff as well. Work is work. What I find draining though, is when you finish a 50+ hour week and then try to fit coding in as well as the rest of your life (and time for rest as well). Coding and making music, to me, are very different things. One is a creative process (music) where you make something out of nothing (even if you have a rough idea), and the other is much more straight forward (you already know what you need, you just need to build it). Working with assembly, I don't have to be 'tricky' per se. Unless I'm trying to do something that's pretty close to the system's resource limit. So in that respect, it's just a matter of constructing what I need. Despite my.. reputation, for lack of a better word, of wanting to push the system hard beyond its limits, I just want to make a game. I'm not concerned with incredible special effects or such at this point. I just want to make something that's fun to play and feels like it came from that era. If I had a choice between crazy special effects, or much more content (hidden area, unlockable stuff, etc) - I'd choose the latter. If I had a whole year, I'd definitely make something visually spectacular, but I don't have that kind of time. That's not to say that I won't add some fluff here and there, just not overboard.

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If it's going to be PCE exclusive, the Kickstarter will be asking a lot of everyone here.  I can't imagine outside crowds really diving aboard.

 I wouldn't initially be getting funding from the Kickstarter crowd to begin with. From what I've read, it's up the person of the Kickstarter project to go out and get as much exposure to the project as possible. Simply just starting a Kickstarter project means nothing. I mean, there is a community for Kickstarter, but only popular projects get those kinds of attention. Where Kickstarter shines (supposedly), is that there's a certain reputation around Kickstarter as opposed to just putting up a website of your own with a donation button; it's seen as a much more serious approach. It's seen that if you don't make your goal, in which YOU have to work for by promoting and such, you don't get any of the funds. That kind of instills some faith that you're more serious about the project and aren't just interested in taking the money and running (as opposed to Indiegogo where you get everything anybody puts in). You're more op'd to get more people to contribute to the project funding that aren't directly interested in the project, as well. There's just this certain legitimacy about it that draws people in.

 But yeah, as far as it being PCE exclusive - not really. I mean sure, it is, but being on CD medium means it can be played on almost any PCE emulator for PC or such. I won't be putting in emulator specific blocks/protection. This is such a small project, that I'm not concerned with piracy. I wanna make this game and I want it on a pressed CD with a manual and case.

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I can't say I myself would be enthusiastic about giving out extra money for a self imposed deadline so that living expenses can be covered when there is no guarantee that the project will in fact see completion by said deadline.

 I can definitely understand that. But from what I've read on the Kickstarter FAQ, there are legalities for project deadlines and promises (promises to backers that give specific amounts to receive rewards). Which is why I haven't just jumped into it, just yet. And which is why I haven't set anything in stone yet either. 3 solid months would bite a huge chunk of time out of the development process, but I'm not going to put the deadline as that. It's an important part of my plan no doubt, and it essential IMO, but I need to make sure I have my ass covered so that I can pull this off. Which is one of the reason why I'm proposing this here, first. I'm trying to foresee any problems that might delay.. well, anything. Internally, I want this game finished and into the final beta testing by the end of August. Something like $6k might even be too little for something this ambitious. It might be something more realistic to have a deadline of 6 months, with the first 3 months dedicated to full time development and the next three months for testing, tweaking, and pressing (seeing as how long they seem to take when they run into problems at the pressing house).

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Sometimes time IS a good thing, especially when you're dealing with something creative. You can avoid burn-out and develop better ideas - gameplay, visuals, level design, music etc. How many professionally released games suck because of a refusal to release 'when it's ready'? Homebrew has an advantage in not having enforced deadlines. I'm pretty sure people lose interest in projects not because of the time, but due to stalling, team members vanishing for ages, lack of updates for the team to see etc. I'd rather you set a good, steady pace than feel you have to finish by day X. We'll all get a much better end result because of it.
No, that's a good point. I remember reading recently, that developer joking said that a game is divided into two parts; the first 90% and he second 90%. The first 90% in getting the game developed, the second 90% in polishing it into an enjoyable/fun game. That said, I think too much time can also hinder a game. I'm sure OldRover is sooo sick of just dealing with MSR, or was at some point. I think you can burn out from something taking too long as well.


 Anyway, thanks for all the feedback. Negative and positive; keep 'em coming (even if I seem a little defensive or tend to explain myself, I do really appreciate it and I do take them seriously). Matter of fact, while I love the positive feedback - I think the grounded or negative feedback is probably most helpful. I'm all gun-ho about this, so some more grounded points of view are pretty helpful.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 09:10:16 AM by Bonknuts »

Arkhan

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2013, 10:25:32 AM »
Quote from: Bonknuts
School is a huge priority for me and even though the first year is going to be pretty light ('cause I'll just be ramping up) - it still takes priority (it's my future, after all). As far as coding and developing 5 days a week at 10+ hours a day, I've done similar with coding....What I find draining though, is when you finish a 50+ hour week and then try to fit coding in as well as the rest of your life (and time for rest as well).
This is why you do things at your leisure in your free time, for better or worse.  Remeber: Insanity was done in <1 year while I was still in college AND working.  The point is that its supposed to be fun, and about the console in question. 
 
 
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Despite my.. reputation, for lack of a better word, of wanting to push the system hard beyond its limits, I just want to make a game. I'm not concerned with incredible special effects or such at this point. I just want to make something that's fun to play and feels like it came from that era. If I had a choice between crazy special effects, or much more content (hidden area, unlockable stuff, etc) - I'd choose the latter. If I had a whole year, I'd definitely make something visually spectacular, but I don't have that kind of time. That's not to say that I won't add some fluff here and there, just not overboard.
This is another thing though.  Your reputation thus far is mostly just techdemos and things that aren't even finished.    You don't have any previous games to demonstrate that you can get the whole thing done in a sane timeframe, let alone a few months of fevered coding.  People who look into what you've done previously may notice this and be pretty much against giving you any money. 

Research the Kickstarters some more.  You'll see they all plan things out for a year or more.  Saying your deadline is 3-6 months is going to make people think you're huffing paint thinner.


 
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You're more op'd to get more people to contribute to the project funding that aren't directly interested in the project, as well. There's just this certain legitimacy about it that draws people in.
This doesn't exactly apply to video games.  You make it sound as if there are people on Kickstarter who just thrust money at people because its Kickstarter.  If people don't want a PC Engine CD game, they aren't likely to pledge, or if they do, they won't pledge much, because the prizes for high pledge amounts won't really excite them.

And again, don't forget, the prizes had better be good.  They're also not free, so you will be losing pizza money to all the prizes you need to produce.

You typically need to tell them what the funding is for.  If you tell them the majority of the funding is going into feeding you while you make a game for a console they've never heard of, they're going to bail.  Pressing CDs (depending on the manual size) costs 1000-3000$, generally.  Depending on the quantity, it may be higher.



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But yeah, as far as it being PCE exclusive - not really. I mean sure, it is, but being on CD medium means it can be played on almost any PCE emulator for PC or such. I won't be putting in emulator specific blocks/protection. This is such a small project, that I'm not concerned with piracy. I wanna make this game and I want it on a pressed CD with a manual and case.
You're assuming people who aren't PCE loyalists will be cool with having to dick around with emulators just to play this game after giving you money.  This includes them having to locate a Super System Card ROM, which means you'll be encouraging them to do something that isn't legal and often requires going to janked up sites.
 
 
 
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I can definitely understand that. But from what I've read on the Kickstarter FAQ, there are legalities for project deadlines and promises (promises to backers that give specific amounts to receive rewards). Which is why I haven't just jumped into it, just yet. And which is why I haven't set anything in stone yet either. 3 solid months would bite a huge chunk of time out of the development process, but I'm not going to put the deadline as that. It's an important part of my plan no doubt, and it essential IMO, but I need to make sure I have my ass covered so that I can pull this off. Which is one of the reason why I'm proposing this here, first. I'm trying to foresee any problems that might delay.. well, anything. Internally, I want this game finished and into the final beta testing by the end of August. Something like $6k might even be too little for something this ambitious. It might be something more realistic to have a deadline of 6 months, with the first 3 months dedicated to full time development and the next three months for testing, tweaking, and pressing (seeing as how long they seem to take when they run into problems at the pressing house).
You've never completed a game before (I don't think?), so you really don't have alot of experience with gauging how much time/effort is going to go into the entire thing. 

It's kinda like you built a wing suit that you've never tested before, and now you're running at the Grand Canyon with your arms spread out, hoping you won't splatter yourself all over the rocks at the bottom.... instead of jumping off a roof or something first to see if it works out.
 
 
 
Honestly, if you aren't in it for fun, you shouldn't really be doing it for PCE.   Homebrew for a 25 year old console has no business being approached from a "professional" standpoint with fixed deadlines and funding and such.    It's supposed to be fun and exciting for all who are involved.

I mean, if you aren't doing it for profit, it's not really "professional" anyways.    You're just setting up senseless deadlines because you want to, and asking people to pay to feed you while you do it.  To me, that kind of slaps everyone else who does this stuff in the face.



Anyway, You're going to lose alot of the funding to Kickstarter's cut that they take, your artists, whoever else you get to collaborate with you (assuming they get chiptunes/songs/whatever done within the time constraints), production costs for the CDs, and costs to make all of the rewards.   And, Kickstarters with crappy rewards don't get funding.  They get people who pledge 1$ to make fun of the project until its almost over and then they retract their 1$ and go troll a different project.





So, I am still leaning towards you scrapping this Kickstarter idea before you stick your neck out there and get decapitated.  Just start the damn game project, give the PCE community periodic updates and such, and when the thing is good to go, tell us here and ask for some preorder funding.   You'll probably get enough to cover CD pressing in <1 week.

I mean, that's worked for TWO games.  Then Pyramid Plunder, we were able to front the cost up front for it...

and Revival Chase was able to just get itself pressed out with none of this foofoo Kickstarter business. 

Noone else does it, because you don't need to.  These games are for the fans of the system in question.   Those fans will cover you when you actually need the funds.  We're the ones who actually give a shit.    People waited 1.21 jiggayears for MSR to come out.   They'll wait for something from you. 
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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esteban

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2013, 04:25:07 PM »

STATUS: I'm in PCE for the long term. I don't care if projects take years—I just want them to come to fruition eventually.
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Necromancer

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2013, 03:02:23 AM »
For what it's worth, Revival Chase was reportedly banged out in three months, so it can be done and still be good/fun.
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Arkhan

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2013, 03:31:04 AM »
For what it's worth, Revival Chase was reportedly banged out in three months, so it can be done and still be good/fun.

Correct. The dude that wrote it is insanely good at doing games rapidly! :)

...but, Lock n' Chase is considerably less involved than a Metroidvania style game.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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vestcoat

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2013, 07:09:58 AM »
...but, Lock n' Chase is considerably less involved than a Metroidvania style game.
Not true! Revival Chase actually has a hidden Metroidvania bonus game. Just press down + I at the title screen while pressing left on controller #2. Simultaneously, hold IV, Select, + II on controller #5 and press left, right, left, U/L, D/R and II five times on controller #1. You'll hear a "beep" indicating that you've activated the code!
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spenoza

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2013, 11:10:32 AM »
And again, don't forget, the prizes had better be good.  They're also not free, so you will be losing pizza money to all the prizes you need to produce.

I would recommend not doing lots of prizes and stretch goals. I know a number of small, successful Kickstarters that raised the necessary funds and more with basically no stretch goals. Everything was laid out clearly. "Here is what we are doing. This is what you are paying for. Here's what work has been done so far and what your contributions will allow us to finish. If we go over, great! More people get our product!"

Trying to win backers with crazy bonuses is actually a really bad idea, because then you have all this other crap you have to do in the same time frame, which already sounds pretty darn compressed. Skip the little trinkets and bonuses. Nobody who's really interested in what you are doing will miss them.
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Arkhan

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Re: Summer time homebrew
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2013, 12:56:15 PM »
I would recommend not doing lots of prizes and stretch goals. I know a number of small, successful Kickstarters that raised the necessary funds and more with basically no stretch goals. Everything was laid out clearly. "Here is what we are doing. This is what you are paying for. Here's what work has been done so far and what your contributions will allow us to finish. If we go over, great! More people get our product!"
Yes, but were these Kickstarters targeting a fairly niche market that has ~300 people who actually care, half of which won't bother to help?  Outside of a normal purchase price, you'd need some decent incentive to give more, or very generous people...


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Trying to win backers with crazy bonuses is actually a really bad idea, because then you have all this other crap you have to do in the same time frame, which already sounds pretty darn compressed. Skip the little trinkets and bonuses. Nobody who's really interested in what you are doing will miss them.

That's actually how a lot of Kickstarters succeed, is the rewards and stretch goals...
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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