Author Topic: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison  (Read 10230 times)

touko

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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2013, 01:07:07 AM »
Sprites animation on earthworm jim is perfectly doable on PCE, can not on hucard due to his space limit, but not in point of view of PCE hardware ..
PCE can transfert datas to VRAM even screen is not in vblank at full speed (or close).

At this point, the MD is more limited, the huge majority of transfers occur in vblank, where his DMA transfers are optimal .
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 01:09:13 AM by touko »

Black Tiger

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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2013, 01:16:13 AM »
Sprites animation on earthworm jim is perfectly doable on PCE, can not on hucard due to his space limit, but not in point of view of PCE hardware ..
PCE can transfert datas to VRAM even screen is not in vblank at full speed (or close).

At this point, the MD is more limited, the huge majority of transfers occur in vblank, where his DMA transfers are optimal .

He meant that the MD is better at hand-drawing with pencils than the PCE.

I wish I were being sarcastic.
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EvilEvoIX

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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2013, 01:28:24 AM »
Here we go again. :roll:


Man I had all three systems in the day.  Idk why my opinion is being dismissed.  Arguing the specific chipset we all know the M6800 is a more powerful processor.  The MD was given a lot more tools to work with.  It lacks color.


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Black Tiger

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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2013, 01:29:40 AM »
This is an argument I've been rehashing for months.  Look at the roms I have and ignore what the system is capable of.  MD games are impossible for me to visualize on the PCE.  The PCE is really cute and I think that is the systems strong suit.  The md has poor color but I can be fooled by simple tricks.  Systems and chip sets have strengths and weaknesses which I cherry pick to acknowledge.  In my experience, I have only seen the PCE do shooters.  The md certainly hand-draws cartoons better, and the snes has more RPGs in english.  It was an amazing time that I missed out on, or so I am told, as all systems were said to be so different and had so much personality.  I don't think that the PCE suffered so much from it's "bit-ness" however it really does straddle the line between NES and SMS.  When push comes to shove you could see Sapphire on the MD or Lords of Thunder, without any noticeable sacrifices.

Fixed.



Here we go again. :roll:


Man I had all three systems in the day.  Idk why my opinion is being dismissed.  Arguing the specific chipset we all know the M6800 is a more powerful processor.  The MD was given a lot more tools to work with.  It lacks color.

Only the parts of your opinions which dismiss and ignore all presented facts. See this latest comment for example. Did you even read any of the tech talk before ignoring it and just re-posting the same stuff again?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 01:39:05 AM by Black Tiger »
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Tatsujin

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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2013, 01:51:43 AM »
Yeah sapphire is just a shewty, therefore pce can obviously handle it well.
If it were another genre than a shewty, it would be plain shoddy because pce only can handle shewties well..
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touko

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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2013, 02:01:58 AM »
He meant that the MD is better at hand-drawing with pencils than the PCE.

I wish I were being sarcastic.
LOL ..

I do not mean to be a pce fanboy, but there are some points where Md is better than PCE, and IMO not for CPU ..

It should not be a general CPU usage, because the main use is the game, and assembly was the main language, the c was trivial in professional studios.

Arkhan

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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2013, 03:51:02 AM »
Yes of course, but you're taking extreme cases ..
68K is perfectly designed for a workstation, and of course is well suitable for a home computer, better than a 6280, in this case 6502 is out of competition .
Not quite extreme.   The more 16-bit operations you do, the more the 68k will begin to win out.   Unless you make frequent, proper use of the zero page.

So it really just depends what kind of game you're making.  What's really funny though, is you would most often be using 16 bit numbers for RPGs (for stats, EXP, gear, combat stuff), so you won't even notice that there's a speed difference.  :)



Quote
I agree with that, and how many people said "Snes has a crappy  CPU " ??, yes snes has also very slow main RAM, but very impressive hardware too ..
When you have good copros, you don't need (usualy) a fast CPU ..

Yeah the 65816 is a giant piece of crap, but the rest of the SNES pulls it together for some excellent games.  Contra 3 is no laughing matter! :)



There are some things the MD does well/easily that the PCE doesn't do as well.   One of those things is multiple background layers.    Earthworm Jim is possible on PCE, sure.  However, the game would likely lose something in the mix.   You'd have to blow a lot of sprites to fake the layers in a game like that.


PC Engine's strong suits are color depth, and moving a lot of large sprites around, easily.  Sprite animation has nothing to do with the hardware in this case.  It's just whoever drew it.  All the animation you see on MD games can happen on the PCE, provided someone draws it.

  

« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 04:32:12 AM by Arkhan »
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Black Tiger

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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2013, 03:57:06 AM »
He meant that the MD is better at hand-drawing with pencils than the PCE.

I wish I were being sarcastic.
LOL ..

I do not mean to be a pce fanboy, but there are some points where Md is better than PCE, and IMO not for CPU ..

It should not be a general CPU usage, because the main use is the game, and assembly was the main language, the c was trivial in professional studios.

The MD has lots of strengths over the PCE and vice versa, just as the SNES has strengths and weaknesses that balance out overall with the MD & PCE. But ever since evilevolx first declared that he "has all the roms", yet was unfamiliar with most games, he has been preaching that the PCE and its games are not in the same class as the MD and SNES and that it is instead in the higher end of the 8-bit generation.

It's pretty bad when you end up with everyone in a Genesis forum arguing against your Genesis>PCE opinions. It's even crazier to think that you'd find any more support for them here.
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touko

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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2013, 04:07:08 AM »
Not quite extreme.   The more 16-bit operations you do, the more the 68k will begin to win out.   Unless you make frequent, proper use of the zero page.

So it really just depends what kind of game you're making.  What's really funny though, is you would most often be using 16 bit numbers for RPGs (for stats, EXP, gear, combat stuff), so you won't even notice that there's a speed difference.  :)
Yes in RPG 68k is the best thing, for a programmer point of view, more easy and less brainwashing to manipulate 16bit datas ..
In this case, C was also the good choise to decrease time development,and 68k is perfectly suitable .

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Yeah the 65816 is a giant piece of crap, but the rest of the SNES pulls it together for some excellent games.  Contra 3 is no laughing matter! :)
Some other exemples, are super aleste, ans rendering ranger R2

Quote
There are some things the MD does well/easily that the PCE doesn't do as well.   One of those things is multiple background layers.    Earthworm Jim is possible on PCE, sure.  However, the game would likely lose something in the mix.   You'd have to blow a lot of sprites to fake the layers in a game like that.
Of course I have not mentioned the second layer ,but this not a determining factor in sprites animation,but but you will probably lose it .

Quote
PC Engine's strong suits are color depth, and moving a lot of large sprites around, easily.  Sprite animation has nothing to do with the hardware in this case.  It's just whoever drew it.  All the animation you see on MD games can happen on the PCE, provided someone draws it.

Yes i think so, this is the strong department of this machine, colors and sprites moving, but his sprites limit is very low for a certain kind of games, like beats them all.
I think also that SGX can manage a very good version of earthworm jim, better than MD,except for underwater level and his vertical scroll/2 tiles .


« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 05:27:41 AM by touko »

HercTNT

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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2013, 04:11:22 AM »
What we need is an interactive growth chart with a penis representing each of the different consoles. everytime someone speaks in favor of one of the consoles, the penis's start throbbing and popping up and down.  Up when the comments have some sort of factual information behind them, and down when its just utter fanboy bullshit. This way, people would be careful what they say so that they don't wind up with a tiny penis..........ummmm.........console  :wink:

soop

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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2013, 04:21:54 AM »
Did you even read any of the tech talk before ignoring it and just re-posting the same stuff again?

This.

Otherwise, it's a very interesting topic.  I used some assembly language on the Amiga, so I get the general gist of the conversation, but it's fascinating.

ProfessorProfessorson

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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2013, 04:51:19 AM »
This argument has gone back and forth for years.  Look at the games and what the system is capable of.  Later MD games would be really hard to visualize on the PCE.  The PCE is really good at color and I think that is the systems strong suit.  The md has poor color but can be displayed cleverly.  Systems and chip sets have strengths and weaknesses.  In my experience the PCE does shooters really well.  The md certainly does animation better, and the snes did RPGs.  It was an amazing time as all systems were so different and had so much personality.  I don't think that the PCE suffered so much from it's "bit-ness" however it really does straddle the line between 8bit and 16bit.  When push comes to shove you won't see earthworm Jim on the PCE or Ranger x, at least not without noticeable sacrifices.

 :roll:

And yet the MD/Genesis couldn't give you a decent copy of BomberMan, Fatal Fury 2, Fatal Fury Special, or Art of Fighting to save its own life. Dracula X is far better then Bloodlines hoped to be, visually or otherwise. Snatcher, better looking on PCE. Raiden, better on PCE. This happens to be the case with most games, including all the arcade ports, that were on both systems, and there are plenty of games on PCE that are visually more appealing then Ranger X. Ranger X is mostly standard fare for the Genesis in its later life, with a few neat tricks in spots but honestly a lot of smaller to average sprites, dull looking colors and boring enemies and sub par audio. It's also another one of those titles that could have been done on on PCE, esp if on Super Cd. Yeah you'd lose the background scrolling, but f*ck it, who cares. The sprites and over all detail and color in the game could have been improved, and over all that is more important.

The Genesis was a great system for being able to move a lot of stuff around the screen fast background wise. Regardless of that, a lot of the crap did not look that great as a whole. Low colors and a rough look are common among even the top tier Genesis titles, and Earthworm Jim is def not that impressive. Tiny to average sprites and a lot of filler spaces in the background art where there is no actual details. Other then the scrolling going on in the background, the game could have been done on PCE, with cleaner, better looking sprites for that matter. The sprite animation could have been handled fine. If you are going to name a game that really holds its own still on the Genesis, pick something like Lightning Force, Shinobi III or Sonic 2, but def not Ranger X or Earthworm Jim.

I'm not really going to go into the sound, people have their own preferences on that, and both systems are able to generate great music and voices when the right programmers are handling it. In the end though don't just assume that because it wasn't done on PCE that it simply can't be done. You may have to ditch some background scrolling, sure, but that is not what makes the game fun or over all visually appealing (and push come to shove, the PCE does have its own nifty tricks up its sleeve, see Vasteel or Metamor Jupiter for a couple of examples). Most everything else the PCE does better, hands down.  And back onto Earthworm for a sec, the only reason Earthworm Jim didn't even get a TG16 release was because Interplay/Shiney did not support Nec systems.

Arkhan

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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2013, 05:06:11 AM »
Genesis did get some vibrant games, but they were few/far between.   Most games look all dingy.  It's like the 16 bit Commodore 64.   Dithery and muddy.


Contra Hard Corps, Rocket Knight and Ristar are 3 I can think of offhand that looked excellent. 

but look at stuff even like Phantasy Star 3.  It's super dithered.  PCE RPGs dwarf that stuff.



Hard Corps is arguably better than Alien Wars, but it really depends on preference/mood.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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ProfessorProfessorson

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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2013, 05:15:38 AM »
Yeah well I think Hard Corps looks like crap other then the special fx. You can barely even call it a full screen game because of the dumb ass large black status bar. I will take Contra 3 over it any day of the week. Ristar was good, as was Dynamite Heddy. Rocket Knight was also a good one.

Tatsujin

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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2013, 05:29:22 AM »
while harcorps is a very good and fun bringing game with tons of action and neaty tricks, still some of its BGs looking like escaped from an average NES game.
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