Md 68k and hu6280 comparison

[PunkicCyborg]

f*cking dick.  I hate censorship, but please Tom don't cease this thread, it's easily the best current thread here.  If Aaron can/wants to delete him and his threads, it's a necessary evil.

lol i doubt aaron has even looked at this site in months

I didnt follow much of the tech heavy stuff at first but am dissapointed this clown had to ruin a thread that could help people interested in working on these systems.
Maybe a general opinion md vs pce thread would be better suited for this kind of argument evilevo is going for.

[nodtveidt]

See this is what I'm talking about, semantics.  You just admitted the MD68k can handle more sprites and I've been shouting it from the rooftops yet you still call me an idiot.

Just because it handles more sprite blocks doesn't mean it handles more sprites. Look, moron...

MD: 80 sprites at 32x32 = 16 cells * 80 sprite blocks = 1280 cells max
PCE: 64 sprites at 32x64 = 32 cells * 64 sprite blocks = 2048 cells max

Yes... you're an idiot if you don't get this.

[ProfessorProfessorson]

I like the part where he started crying about data size and data storage ( games on cd-rom) being the big advantage for the PCE saying its not fair to bring that stuff up, opting for ignorance concerning the fact that regardless of the data storage method, its still the HuC6280A + HuC6260 + HuC6270A doing the actual work, presenting the end results on screen, all of which are found in the core of the system, not the cd drive. Other then that, everything else he posted was laughable or ignorant, take your pick.

edit: I owned and played Altered Beast Cd a lot a few years back. I even submitted a video of it on youtube capped off real hardware (I still have the video if anyone wants me to resubmit it). The soundtrack for the game actually sounds pretty good, and visually the game is easily better looking and a better arcade port then the Genesis port. There is nothing wrong with the speed of the game or how it moves on PCE, it feels like the arcade game. Unless you suddenly bought a System 1.0 card Evo, I don't even see how you could have played it on the Duo-R I sold you, since I did not include one with it.

[spenoza]

Tom, Touko, others, I've really enjoyed the technical stuff. We can all put Evo on ignore and then we can see the text that matters.

I love these programming discussions.

[EvilEvoIX]

   
Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #150 on: Today at 03:25:37 PM »

Quote from: soop on Today at 03:16:44 PM
f*cking dick.  I hate censorship, but please Tom don't cease this thread, it's easily the best current thread here.  If Aaron can/wants to delete him and his threads, it's a necessary evil.
lol i doubt aaron has even looked at this site in months

I didnt follow much of the tech heavy stuff at first but am dissapointed this clown had to ruin a thread that could help people interested in working on these systems.
Maybe a general opinion md vs pce thread would be better suited for this kind of argument evilevo is going for.

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The Old Rover
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #151 on: Today at 03:28:16 PM »

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on Today at 02:37:19 PM
See this is what I'm talking about, semantics.  You just admitted the MD68k can handle more sprites and I've been shouting it from the rooftops yet you still call me an idiot.
Just because it handles more sprite blocks doesn't mean it handles more sprites. Look, moron...

MD: 80 sprites at 32x32 = 16 cells * 80 sprite blocks = 1280 cells max
PCE: 64 sprites at 32x64 = 32 cells * 64 sprite blocks = 2048 cells max

Yes... you're an idiot if you don't get this.
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ProfessorProfessorson
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #152 on: Today at 04:04:45 PM »

I like the part where he started crying about data size and data storage ( games on cd-rom) being the big advantage for the PCE saying its not fair to bring that stuff up, opting for ignorance concerning the fact that regardless of the data storage method, its still the HuC6280A + HuC6260 + HuC6270A doing the actual work, presenting the end results on screen, all of which are found in the core of the system, not the cd drive. Other then that, everything else he posted was laughable or ignorant, take your pick.

edit: I owned and played Altered Beast Cd a lot a few years back. I even submitted a video of it on youtube capped off real hardware (I still have the video if anyone wants me to resubmit it). The soundtrack for the game actually sounds pretty good, and visually the game is easily better looking and a better arcade port then the Genesis port. There is nothing wrong with the speed of the game or how it moves on PCE, it feels like the arcade game. Unless you suddenly bought a System 1.0 card Evo, I don't even see how you could have played it on the Duo-R I sold you, since I did not include one with it.
« Last Edit: Today at 04:28:42 PM by ProfessorProfessorson »   Report to moderator    Logged
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spenoza
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #153 on: Today at 04:28:23 PM »

Tom, Touko, others, I've really enjoyed the technical stuff. We can all put Evo on ignore and then we can see the text that matters.

I love these programming discussions.
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My meager PC Engine Collection so far.

Quote from: Tatsujin on January 22, 2008, 08:58:57 AM
it allows you to play the uber awesome sapphire! it's made of pure unbelivable magic! respect is due!

So once again, even though you own all of the isos and have played all of the games, you are still completely clueless about another game library. FMV games are a tiny minority of the Sega/Mega-CD library and the hardware was pushed to amazing levels, as was the CD format.





I had the privilege of growing up with a programmer/engineer.

Did this person give you the impression that all programmers sit at a keyboard with their dick in their hand?






  While this is true to an extent Sapphire is a great game let’s take a close look at it.


First of all in order to play this thing you needed the following while in Japan:

A PC Engine
A CD Rom attachment that then came with the Bios Revision #1
You later purchased Bios revision 2 for CD+G
You later purchased System Card 3.0 to add support for Super CD games
You finally had to purchase an Arcade card to play Sapphire.
You had to purchase Sapphire.

In the states you needed to have the arcade card and a converter and a CD ROM then order the game.  God forbid you call ANY of those upgrades or you will be bashed and burned at the stake so all of the above are NOT upgrades, not at all.






If the MD68K is so powerful, then why is it that in order to play a cart game, you needed the following in Japan:

A Mega Drive
A Mark III Sega Mega Adaptor
A Mega Modem
A Mega-CD
A Super 32X
An Action Replay
A Mega Key
A copy of Sonic & Knuckles
A cleaning kit cart
A copy of the game





God forbid you call ANY of those upgrades or you will be bashed and burned at the stake so all of the above are NOT upgrades, not at all.






Now let’s look at the game and how it plays.

That's a single player playthrough on EASY difficulty genius. Play through the game with 2 players at once on the hardest difficulty to judge what the game and hardware really do.





I don’t think anyone really argues that the PCE sound chip didn’t provide the best sound FX

You are demonstrating once again that you ignore the internet in general, as well as the forum discussion you "participate" in. Many people dislike PCE sound, although they tend to be people who have heard much of it. Still, many more people appreciate it, even on Sega-16. More people in the world think that the Genesis/Mega Drive has terrible sound than do not. They may be biased Nintendo fans, but you are the one using popular opinion as a measure of proof.




First thing you notice is the colors and the MD68K could never hope to have any of this.

The MD68K is a cpu and not a VDP, so your statement is true. But what you really mean, as you've been saying all along, is that the Mega Drive couldn't do any of it. But you're wrong, the Mega Drive could do much of the color/detail/shading, including some entire scenes as-is. It just can't do all of it.




Obvious lack of parallax but that is to be expected as the PCE chose color over multi-scrolling backgrounds.

It is to be expected that a vertical shooter will not necessarily feature much parallax, as they tend to not feature nearly as much as in horizontal shooters, regardless of the hardware being used. Still, Sapphire does have multi-scrolling backgrounds and I can't think of any part of the game where it looks like an extra layer of scrolling should have appeared.




There is nothing going on that the MD68K can’t handle in except color.  The MD68K can handle more detailed sprites on screen and larger at that.  It’s just what the hardware did.

There is more in-game (non-fmv) animation happening than any Mega Drive/Genesis ever did. I don't believe that the MD couldn't do something similar in terms of animation, but you have argued all along that because it didn't happen, the MD can't do it and therefore the PCE is far superior at animation in general.

I don't think you understand the definition of detail, but again, Sapphire tosses around as many sprites across the screen as any MD game ever has. But again, "larger" sprites is a strength of PCE games. MD and SNES games usually use a tile layer for large enemies, while the PCE usually uses massive sprites, comparable to the arcade games that Game Fan went on and on about (Juggernaut, Lucifeller, etc). If you stop lying and actually start playing all of those roms and isos, you'll soon notice than large sprites are a trademark of PCE games more so than MD or SNES games. If you look at the MD and PCE games with the most sprites on screen at a time, they look more or less the same. It's only the SNES that lacks games with that level of screen-filling sprites.




That’s why you never saw a game as capable with as large of bosses and the speed they had in games such as Alien Soldier or Gunstar Heroes without cuts in multi scrolling backgrounds.

You've brought up Alien Soldier again as proof of the MD68K superiority. But if you've witnessed the game on real hardware, you'd notice the regular slowdown. That's why it's a favorite demonstration of Genesis overclockers, who attempt to bump up that superior MD68K cpu to try to minimize the slowdown. There are many MD and PCE games with a comparable amount of action happening, where you'll see more slowdown in MD games.

Alien Soldier is another Treasure game with a bunch of neat effects, but they're usually a showcase for the overall MD hardware, not the cpu. They're designed around the system's weaknesses as much as its strengths. Just like top quality PCE and SNES games. A top quality game designed around one hardware won't turn out as good if an exact port is attempted. But working around the target hardware's strengths and weaknesses will result in something also great, only somewhat different.

The MD can't do Sapphire as-is, but it could do a cool version of it. Same goes with any 2D MD game ported to PCE.




I hate to bring out this game but everyone points to it.  What is happening that can’t happen on the MD68K?  Right out of the gate the sound FX would be better, you could through more sprites at it or move the bosses or sub bosses faster.

Again, I'll assume that by "MD68K" you really mean "Mega Drive". Maybe you should start playing more of your Mega Drive roms and pay attention to intense games and see how well the MD handles stuff like (or the closest it has to) Sapphire. Pause the game during the slowdown in stage one of Ranger X and look at how much is onscreen at the time. Compare that to the busiest parts of Sapphire in 2 player mode on the hardest difficulty.

The MD and PCE can do a comparable amount of action that sets them apart from the SNES. The MD can do more with background layering and some unique special effects and the PCE can do more in terms of actual graphic quality (shading/detail/color). Most experts seem to agree that the PCE hardware is better at animation, but they're still comparable. There is no "smashing victory" in terms of processing power when it comes to regular 16-bit games (2D stuff). The MD is probably the best at polygons, but still can't do much and from what I've read, the advantage is more than cpu based. The SNES can still do things that the 32X and Sega-CD can't and its average 2D games are still impressive overall for the time. You don't need crazy action all the time for every type of game. Overall, the MD, PCE and SNES produced comparable games, that's why they're all the same class and the PCE isn't "straddling the 8 - 16-bit barrier". If it was, then games like Sapphire only pull the MD and SNES down to sub-16-bit levels.


I'm sorry am I supposed to read all that?  I saw the fan boi genesis stacker series of hardware and its cute.  It's also cute to compare cd storage of animation to cart storage, really is an apples to apples example.  Did you even sit down and play altered beast for the PCE vs the MD!  Are you sure you want to make that argument?  Should I say that that MD68k is faster and moves more sprites faster and alien soldier could not be done on the PCE yet the MD could handle Sapphire without arcade card upgrades and add a multiple scrolling background to give some visual if depth?  Yes PCE CD games rule I'm playing one now.  Get over the sprite limit and move on.
Also I already stated that the PCE cd rom to me is better.  I have a stack of sega cd games that just collect dust and I've been running through most of my PCE cd games burned or otherwise.  Beats the shit outa emulators.  Sega cd just had a lot of clunkers IMHO.   No real graphical upgrades except cd sound.  Batman retuns I liked the driving and even cliff hanger the snow bonding.  I don't play RPGs.
Just saying....

« Last Edit: Today at 02:58:31 PM by EvilEvoIX »   Report to moderator    71.187.26.211

Arkhan
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #143 on: Today at 02:54:21 PM »

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on Today at 02:37:19 PM
See this is what I'm talking about, semantics.  You just admitted the MD68k can handle more sprites and I've been shouting it from the rooftops yet you still call me an idiot.  Ummmm, so in the late 80's early 90's one could argue that most game consoles were 2d sprite based machines and I argued that since the MD68k could handle more sprites in screen at once in addition to multi scrolling backgrounds one could indeed conclude a distinct advantage however I wouldn't call it a complete advantage.

The MD can handle "more sprites on screen at once", but the PCE can handle more sprite PIXELS on screen at once.  So which one is actually better, especially when you consider that sprites are often used for things like scenery and HUDs and shit.

So, PCE can move more pixels around at a time than the MD, and with better colors, to boot.


Quote from: EvilEvoIX on Today at 02:03:30 PM
The PCE does 8-bit things better.  not doing Alien Soldier, sorry.  Its all over the net and in publications you had no monopoly on duch information do quit acting like you just pulled the curtain back.  I also know it does so better than the PCE.  More sprites, more detail, faster.  It's there in black and white and with all the bitching I am getting everyone seems to dance around that statement.  
Monopoly on what information?  No one here is acting like we just unveiled some huge surprise.   We're stating fairly obvious things, assuming you have any bearing on CPUs and programming.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pc+engine+can%27t+do+alien+storm

What information is all over the internet?

Also, what's your fascination with Alien Storm?   The PC Engine can do that.   The main levels are pretty uninspiring and simple, and the shooting parts just use line-scrolling, which anyone knows the PCE can do.

Also, there isn't that much sprite action going on in the beat em up sections...

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[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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VenomMacbeth
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #144 on: Today at 02:59:14 PM »

Quote from: Arkhan on Today at 02:54:21 PM

Also, what's your fascination with Alien Storm?   The PC Engine can do that.   The main levels are pretty uninspiring and simple, and the shooting parts just use line-scrolling, which anyone knows the PCE can do.

Also, there isn't that much sprite action going on in the beat em up sections...



Alien Soldier, Arkhan.

Not like it actually matters because it's still completely irrelevant.
« Last Edit: Today at 03:01:28 PM by VenomMacbeth »   Report to moderator    Logged

EvilEvoIX
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Posts: 161



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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #145 on: Today at 03:03:28 PM »
Quote Modify
Just Christ what do you guys want from me?  Is it my fault that the folks at NEC released a plague of shitty 8 bit looking games in the west and in order to get any comparable game you needed a converter and 3 system card upgrades just get on an even playing field?  Why do people keep masturbating to SAPPHIRE its a great game and all but not the end all be all.  The MD68k and the PC engine are comparable.  I get it I know it.  Lets are it pull off some of the arcade craziness the MD did, it didn't.  It couldn't.  Why am I bring crucified?

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soop
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #146 on: Today at 03:04:53 PM »

^
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http://www.pcedaisakusen.net/2/34/463/show-collection.htm

Quote from: Arkhan on July 11, 2012, 02:01:39 PM
why did you put this in the Turbob section!  Xanaduder is a PCE game!

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE.

"The English hate music, but they absolutely love the noise it makes."
Bonknuts
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #147 on: Today at 03:09:06 PM »

touko: Sorry that EvilEvoIX ruined this thread. I don't see any point in furthering this discussion if people have to wade through all this crap just to read what is topic related (even ourselves). If you create a new one, I'd be happy to join in (rather not have to do this on another site forum, but if so then no problem. Maybe MooZ's forum). Maybe the mods can somehow keep EvilEvoIX out of it. Dunno.
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VenomMacbeth
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #148 on: Today at 03:12:17 PM »

We get it, Evo.  Sega does what NECan't & we unfairly "crucified" you for hijacking a thread to purvey your dumbassery.

Now who's butthurt?
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soop
Punchy Pedro

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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
« Reply #149 on: Today at 03:16:44 PM »

f*cking dick.  I hate censorship, but please Tom don't cease this thread, it's easily the best current thread here.  If Aaron can/wants to delete him and his threads, it's a necessary evil.
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http://www.pcedaisakusen.net/2/34/463/show-collection.htm

Quote from: Arkhan on July 11, 2012, 02:01:39 PM
why did you put this in the Turbob section!  Xanaduder is a PCE game!

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE.

"The English hate music, but they absolutely love the noise it makes."

Wait a minute,  did I say that the MD68k was faster than the HU6280?  Oh shit I completely got that backwards.  I meant that the HU6280 was faster than the MD68K.  I got that whole thing BACKWARDS!!!! What a silly goose i am.  WHOOPS, ohhhhh is my face red.  What a silly mistake that was.  Ooooopsie-doodles.  Oh well, at least there was no harm done.  Thanks guys really cool site and community.

[ProfessorProfessorson]

Oh my, look at that, the werewolf zips across the screen on PCE just as fast as the retarded robo-birdman in Cosmic Carnage Action Game on Mega Drive 68K Burning Heart of Brown Colors, but did it years earlier and in more colors then red, brown, and grey. Also, listen to those crisp sounding sound fx not present on the MD port, let alone look, its the correct sprite artwork not found on MD also. Yeah....
 

[Arkhan]

Oh, right, Alien Soldier


Yes because the PCE cant do like 4-8 sprites on screen and multi-layer scrolling.


Alien Soldier is flashy and fancy looking because of the background and the obnoxious explosions.   The rest of the game is pretty, well, typical?

[ProfessorProfessorson]

The rest of the game is pretty, well, typical?

Typically rendered in brown, grey, and red with slowdown, yeah. Pretty impressive, for serious.

[VenomMacbeth]

As much as it pains me to say it... Gunstar Heroes > Alien Soldier. 

[EvilEvoIX]

As much as it pains me to say it... Gunstar Heroes > Alien Soldier. 

In 2 player for sure.  Great team game.

[ProfessorProfessorson]

[Tatsujin]

Grafx.  First thing you notice is the colors and the MD68K could never hope to have any of this.

You see, this very intelligent and masterly statement of yours alone proves, that you have absolutely ZERO (0) knowledge about what you're talking about.

So the MD68K does have any colors? Tell me then smart boy, where are these colors exactly located inside the 68K? And how comes, that other hardwares using the very same 68K have way more colors than the one used in the MD?

I'm waiting eagerly to a logical explanation of yours genius :!:



AND

Unless you suddenly bought a System 1.0 card Evo, I don't even see how you could have played it on the Duo-R I sold you, since I did not include one with it.

Oh, he could have play throug the whole stage one easily. But I don't think the Sys card 1.0 was the limitation here

I love the Genesis, perhaps even more than the PCE, but you are telling lies.

hmm..  

[ProfessorProfessorson]

Grafx.  First thing you notice is the colors and the MD68K could never hope to have any of this.

You see, this very intelligent and masterly statement of yours alone proves, that you have absolutely ZERO (0) knowledge about what you're talking about.

So the MD68K does have any colors? Tell me then smart boy, where are these colors exactly located inside the 68K? And how comes, that other hardwares using the very same 68K have way more colors than the one used in the MD?

I'm waiting eagerly to a logical explanation of yours genius :!:



AND

Unless you suddenly bought a System 1.0 card Evo, I don't even see how you could have played it on the Duo-R I sold you, since I did not include one with it.

Oh, he could have play throug the whole stage one easily. But I don't think the Sys card 1.0 was the limitation here

I love the Genesis, perhaps even more than the PCE, but you are telling lies.

hmm.. 

The first line you quote about colors isn't actually mine lol. Might want to go back and correct it since its something Evo said.

[Tatsujin]

oh damn, my bad. mixed it up when I was using my editor to create the quotes.

corrected as true, sorry for the embarrassment.

[EvilEvoIX]

Grafx.  First thing you notice is the colors and the MD68K could never hope to have any of this.

You see, this very intelligent and masterly statement of yours alone proves, that you have absolutely ZERO (0) knowledge about what you're talking about.

So the MD68K does have any colors? Tell me then smart boy, where are these colors exactly located inside the 68K? And how comes, that other hardwares using the very same 68K have way more colors than the one used in the MD?

I'm waiting eagerly to a logical explanation of yours genius :!:



AND

Unless you suddenly bought a System 1.0 card Evo, I don't even see how you could have played it on the Duo-R I sold you, since I did not include one with it.

Oh, he could have play throug the whole stage one easily. But I don't think the Sys card 1.0 was the limitation here

I love the Genesis, perhaps even more than the PCE, but you are telling lies.

hmm..  

According to this site all the MD can display is brown.  This thread is basically a comparison between the MD68K and the HU6280.  Yes I know the VDP displays the colors using RGB in bit format.  Again semantics.  Argue the processor please.