Difficulty tiers for PC Engine/TG-16 shoot-'em-ups

[shubibiman]

In the case of Sapphire, everyone who says the game is one of the easiest shmups on the PCE CHOOSE the number of lives/credits and the difficulty level in the option so it's not the way the developpers intended it to be. Have the guies who said Sapphire was easy cleared it in default settings?

I bet NOT.

[turboswimbz]

In the case of Sapphire, everyone who says the game is one of the easiest shmups on the PCE CHOOSE the number of lives/credits and the difficulty level in the option so it's not the way the developpers intended it to be. Have the guies who said Sapphire was easy cleared it in default settings?

I bet NOT.

I actually did beat this on the defualt, but I had to play through it on an easier setting first and build my way up.  So yes I think the developers intended easy to be to played and completed, but also wanted you to have a way to keep ramping up the challenge and see how good you could really could get. IMO this is great programming and makes the game easier to see the ending even at the defualt. 

I'd rather see the games ranked by how well the Game makes you want to finish it on the defualt or harder settings.  To be honest, I never see myself beating the likes of image fight (I generally feel like the effort isn't worth the payoff), or even orydyne (i just can't get into it) but games like Blazing lazers, SSS, and raiden have me coming back for more, and I'm close to finishing all these games, and want to finish them. 

I'm just saying I understand that what Bard is trying to do here is Group the games by your chances of finishing the game and seeing the credits.  Hopefully Even on easy this means it'll bring you back for more.  I'm just suggesting in order to that, perhaps a better way of saying this would be what games are going to grab you in and get you to finish.

then again maybe I'm just crazy.

[A Black Falcon]

Looking earlier in the thread again, Cyber-Core was putin the "Easy" group.  If you use the cheatcodes, for infinite continues, the password cheats to go straight to any level, the Easy mode password cheat, etc., yeah, the game is quite doable.  The last level is hard and frustrating, but with infinite continues you'll get through it eventually.

But if you want to play the game straight, with only the limited continues you get by default? Then, thanks to how annoying the last stage is, I don't know that the game should be in the "Easy" group...

[Black Tiger]

Looking at the OP again, Cyber-Core is in the "Easy" group.  If you use the cheatcodes, for infinite continues, the password cheats to go straight to any level, the Easy mode password cheat, etc., yeah, the game is quite doable.  The last level is hard and frustrating, but with infinite continues you'll get through it eventually.

But if you want to play the game straight, with only the limited continues you get by default? Then, thanks to how annoying the last stage is, I don't know that the game should be in the "Easy" group...

This is why I don't think that a game's overall difficulty and value should be based around technically clearing it. If the final boss preceeding a non-ending/credit roll is much harder than the rest of the game, then 99% of the game can be enjoyed at the difficulty the rest of the game is at and the game should be judged as such.

Some games may be average difficulty for six stages and then very hard for another six. But you still get six stages of average difficulty to play through while another game may be comprised of five stages total, all of which are only average difficulty. Should a longer game loaded with content be written off as too hard because of the later sections?

[esteban]

THIS IS AN AWESOME THREAD I MISSED! Forgive my random thoughts vomited below.

I just want to say that CyberCore and Sinistron are not "easy" games...they are moderate. It takes time and practice and you'll beat them, but they have many challenging elements to them.

I know we are all different, but I consider Gates of Thunder and Lords of Thunder to be on the "easy" side.

I should copy-and-paste my comments from the other thread here to continue discussion (thank goodness my comments corroborate some of the comments in this thread, I was worried that folks didn't find Raiden challenging!)

ALSO, and I'll have to find one of my old posts and paste it here, but the last stage of Blazing Lazers is NOT impossible to recover from with a GODDAMN PEASHOOTER. You can beat the last stage with STRATEGY (you don't need full power ups).

I've explained what you do in the past, but, basically, you MAXIMIZE your speed at key moments to eliminate waves of enemies with your pea shooter. The ensuing gels (the game throws a few at you) will enhance your pea shooter (weapon "I" is quite versatile in last stage, actually). Bosses are pretty easy, but staying alive between bosses is the real challenge, IMHO.

CyberCore and Sinistron, believe it or not, are also "fair" like Blazing Lazers in that you can actually survive with just a pea shooter (but you need at least one speed up, usually, to make things easier—Blazing Lazers and Soldier series are "generous" in that they allow you to adjust speed at any time...)



You want an TRULY EASY GAME?

Psychic Storm is truly easy. I wish there was a "Brutal Mode" because this game actually has a lot going for it....but it's too easy and, unlike Star Parodia (another easy game) it doesn't have the CHARM and fun to make you want to REPLAY IT OVER and over. PSYCHIC STORM...I wish I could go back and tweak a few things to make it more engaging/alluring.

YOU WANT A GAME NOBODY TALKS ABOUT AND ACTUALLY IS CHALLENGING?

Hawk F-123. I brought up this game on other forums before I even posted here frequently because it surprised me. It was kicking my butt and I couldn't master it in an afternoon. I'm not saying it is an amazing game, but I appreciated its challenge.



Finally, not that we will ever reach consensus, but I would love to at least ATTEMPT to categorize TG-16/PCE shootemups for folks who are (1) new to TG-16 (skilled shootemup fans might be in this category) and/or (2) novices (weak shootemup skills, looking to enjoy some games!)

Surely we could help out both the NEWBIE and the HARDCORE populations.

I would love to add a column/note about "newbie appeal" and "hardcore appeal" to this list:

http://archives.tg-16.com/complete_list_of_tg16_pce_shooters.htm

(Obligatory)

[Gentlegamer]

Reading through the thread, I agree with using the "1CC" standard. Not as something literal, but as away of judging the core game play difficulty independent of the existence of infinite/plentiful continues to "bully" your way to completion.

If a game is hard enough, even infinite continues will result in a figurative "game over" if you can't advance.

[Black Tiger]

I just want to say that CyberCore and Sinistron are not "easy" games...they are moderate. It takes time and practice and you'll beat them, but they have many challenging elements to them.

It really depends on each person's play style. Games in general may be easier for me than for many people, but I believe that the reason I beat CyberCore in a single sitting on my TurboExpress the first time I played it is because it just happens to suit the kind of gameplay I am comfortable with.

[fragmare]

Look, there are two types of people in this world.  People who reset or stop playing the shmup after losing a credit, and people who are doing it wrong.

[lukester]

Look, there are two types of people in this world.  People who reset or stop playing the shmup after losing a credit, and people who are doing it wrong.

And what is wrong with using the default number of continues? Or even a shooter with unlimited continues but you have to restart the stage?

Developers put standards in their games for a reason, as the actual level of difficulty.

I mean, 3 continues seems pretty fair for a shooter in which one bullet or one mistake can kill you.

Unless it's a game like Gradius, which has no continues but is still beatable.

[fragmare]

And what is wrong with using the default number of continues? Or even a shooter with unlimited continues but you have to restart the stage?

Because any shmup worth a bag of dildos resets the score to 0 after you continue.  Believe me... I too was once a bottom feeder (aka credit feeder), but I have seen the err of my ways.  Nearly all shmups, even console exclusive shmups, are designed to be arcade styled.  And as an arcade styled shooter, the entire foundation of the game is built around the concept of playing for score.  Even if you're not playing the game *for* score, you're still playing a game that's designed, from the ground up, around scoring... but in that case, the game is more or less playing you.  Taunting you.  Laughing at you.  Play the game, don't let the game play you. 

[esteban]

I just want to say that CyberCore and Sinistron are not "easy" games...they are moderate. It takes time and practice and you'll beat them, but they have many challenging elements to them.

It really depends on each person's play style. Games in general may be easier for me than for many people, but I believe that the reason I beat CyberCore in a single sitting on my TurboExpress the first time I played it is because it just happens to suit the kind of gameplay I am comfortable with.

Sure, but do you think the average newbie (looking to have fun) is going to find CyberCore easy or moderate?

I don't know myself. Maybe this is too subjective. Maybe you're right—it comes down to the mechanics that a person is comfortable with.

Even if we put CyberCore in "easy" column, I wouldn't put Sinistron in the easy column.

And what is wrong with using the default number of continues? Or even a shooter with unlimited continues but you have to restart the stage?

Because any shmup worth a bag of dildos resets the score to 0 after you continue.  Believe me... I too was once a bottom feeder (aka credit feeder), but I have seen the err of my ways.  Nearly all shmups, even console exclusive shmups, are designed to be arcade styled.  And as an arcade styled shooter, the entire foundation of the game is built around the concept of playing for score.  Even if you're not playing the game *for* score, you're still playing a game that's designed, from the ground up, around scoring... but in that case, the game is more or less playing you.  Taunting you.  Laughing at you.  Play the game, don't let the game play you. 

I am familiar with this point of view, but it is misguided.

First, I don't enjoy or engage in no-skill credit-feeding. I think it is silly.

However, there is a way to intelligently use the continues that a game provides.

Let me explain why: while I, too, enjoy 1CC'ing games, I do not think that REAL MEN hit RESET after dying.

Why?

Because only through sheer creativity, tenacity and SKILL can a player tackle the seemingly impossible task (in some games) of recovering after you lose power-ups.

The true test of a real shootemup fan: Armed with only a peashooter, how far can you make it? What strategies are you going to use? What combination of speed/power-ups are most effective when you are STARVED for them?

This is a different mentality than credit-feeding, and, honestly, I don't enjoy credit feeding.

If a designer included continues, I think it is perfectly acceptable to use them when you are still learning a game (with moderation, of course). Starting a stage again, but with a mere Pea-shooter, is a great challenge in many games. Don't hit reset.

I personally think it makes games EASYGOING if you are always powered-up with full weapons...I have thought about this over the years...

Of course, I am referring exclusively to old-skool shoot-me-ups...which usually limited lives/continues and dictated re-spawn locations (current location, checkpoint, back-a-few-screens,  beginning of stage). Sure, in the arcade some games allowed you to credit feed to the end...

Bullet-hell and what I consider "new wave" sub-genres have a different formula, credit-feeding in these games is still problematic because you are usually re-spawning without being sent back to check-points/beginning of stage...I think this is where the "hit reset" philosophy gains credibility.

Ultimately, used in moderation, I think it is ok to use a few continues, especially when you are truly testing your skills. SPAMMING BOMBS is lame and not the sort of thing I condone. As long as a player is thinking "this is my last life, how far can I make it on skill alone?" then everything is OK.

IF YOU ARE SPAMMING BOMBS, hit reset, you fool.

[lukester]

I've been playing Tatsujin recently on Normal Mode. I can get up to the 3rd Stage boss.

Looking at a longplay, the 4th and 5th stages seem a lot harder. Am I correct?

I have been able to beat level 1 and half of level 2 on one continue, but somethings can give me trouble.

[jtucci31]

I've been playing Tatsujin recently on Normal Mode. I can get up to the 3rd Stage boss.

Looking at a longplay, the 4th and 5th stages seem a lot harder. Am I correct?

I have been able to beat level 1 and half of level 2 on one continue, but somethings can give me trouble.

Farthest I've made it at all is around the exploding light bulb things. That i always forget about the first time. I spent a few weeks on and off on it. It kicks my ass, but always has me coming back for whatever reason. I think it's the tunes.

[lukester]

I've been playing Tatsujin recently on Normal Mode. I can get up to the 3rd Stage boss.

Looking at a longplay, the 4th and 5th stages seem a lot harder. Am I correct?

I have been able to beat level 1 and half of level 2 on one continue, but somethings can give me trouble.

Farthest I've made it at all is around the exploding light bulb things. That i always forget about the first time. I spent a few weeks on and off on it. It kicks my ass, but always has me coming back for whatever reason. I think it's the tunes.

Trick with the lightbulbs is not to shoot all of them, but only some of them. So if there are right and left columns, only pick one side at once.

I've briefly played the Genesis version, but it is much easier with very slow bullets and 6 continues instead of 4.

[jtucci31]

I've been playing Tatsujin recently on Normal Mode. I can get up to the 3rd Stage boss.

Looking at a longplay, the 4th and 5th stages seem a lot harder. Am I correct?

I have been able to beat level 1 and half of level 2 on one continue, but somethings can give me trouble.

Farthest I've made it at all is around the exploding light bulb things. That i always forget about the first time. I spent a few weeks on and off on it. It kicks my ass, but always has me coming back for whatever reason. I think it's the tunes.

Trick with the lightbulbs is not to shoot all of them, but only some of them. So if there are right and left columns, only pick one side at once.

I've briefly played the Genesis version, but it is much easier with very slow bullets and 6 continues instead of 4.

I typically do something to that extent where i shoot only a few. But it'll always catch me off guard and then I'll forget later as well, haha. I still really want to try the Genesis version.