Author Topic: Superiorities of PCE games vs. the others?  (Read 1292 times)

nodtveidt

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Re: Superiorities of PCE games vs. the others?
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2013, 01:29:33 PM »
Not true.  You're totally forgetting the SNES' transparency mode, which multiplies the number of colours on-screen, as well as the 256- and 2048-colour bitmap modes, native to the PPU(s).
Oh, I didn't know that the transparency mode actually increased the color count; I was always told it just used approximation within the current palette. I've never seen anything about a 2048 color bitmap mode though, just the 256 color one.

EvilEvoIX

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Re: Superiorities of PCE games vs. the others?
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2013, 01:53:26 PM »
The AES is consolized arcade hardware that has zero original games in its library. It's literally all arcade roms.

Although he PCE is technically superior to the Neo Geo in some ways, I think most of us can agree that we're talking about PCE/MD/SNES.

Samurai Showdown was quite amazing IMHO and extremely original and ground breaking for a fighter.  The KOF series was very original and novel in mixing up series fighters, even arch nemesis got into the act with Capcom/SNK.  That would be like if Coke worked with Pepsi and made a new Soda together.  Many original Puzzlers such as Puzzle Bobble which just ate millions in quarters.  I beg to differ and I could go on but yes the AES really isn't part of the 16 BIT PCE/MD/SNES argument.


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ccovell

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Re: Superiorities of PCE games vs. the others?
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2013, 02:38:44 PM »
I've never seen anything about a 2048 color bitmap mode though, just the 256 color one.

Here: http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9187&start=15#p97671
Here (Nintendo's 1989 SFC spec press release) : http://www.chrismcovell.com/secret/misc/IMG_1159sm.jpg  (http://www.chrismcovell.com/secret/SFC_1989Q3.html)
And Wikipedia mentions the SNES' colour specs in bpp; Direct mode has 8bpp or 11bpp.  2^11 = 2048.

nodtveidt

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Re: Superiorities of PCE games vs. the others?
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2013, 02:41:23 PM »
Well, I stand corrected then.

nodtveidt

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Re: Superiorities of PCE games vs. the others?
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2013, 02:45:07 PM »
Are there any games that actually use it though?

I've also looked into the Genesis shadow/highlight bit and it seems that it can only really be used for static stuff since it's so bloody slow. Toy Story seems to use it; I took some screenies that are >100 colors, and one that was in the 900s.

Tatsujin

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Re: Superiorities of PCE games vs. the others?
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2013, 02:54:28 PM »
looks like some HAM mode like the amiga could do with its 4096 onscreen colors, which was almost never used for any in-game graphics.
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nodtveidt

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Re: Superiorities of PCE games vs. the others?
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2013, 03:10:41 PM »
According to what I've read, the shadow/highlight mode could technically produce up to 1536 colors, but is so amazingly slow that it can only be used for static images. Oh... as an aside, Toy Story is one of the crappiest games I've ever seen. Holy shit, what a pile. I'd rather play Fantasia... oh wait, that's a pile too... well... Chakan? Another pile... damn... running low on games to play... ah well, low-color-count Sonic it is. :lol:

Tatsujin

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Re: Superiorities of PCE games vs. the others?
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2013, 03:32:53 PM »
I was always wondering how much color sonic uses in the first level?

btw. any easy tools to count colors in a picture? :)
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roflmao

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Re: Superiorities of PCE games vs. the others?
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2013, 03:36:42 PM »
I haven't used it, but it sounds like irfanview (http://www.irfanview.com/) has an option to count colors.  It's a free download to boot!

Tatsujin

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Re: Superiorities of PCE games vs. the others?
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2013, 03:47:18 PM »
I haven't used it, but it sounds like irfanview (http://www.irfanview.com/) has an option to count colors.  It's a free download to boot!


great thanks. and works :)

btw. sonic uses around 40 onscreen colors in the first stage (depending on locations and enemies on screen). quite nice what they could pull out with those only 40 colors, tho.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 03:53:38 PM by Tatsujin »
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BigusSchmuck

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Re: Superiorities of PCE games vs. the others?
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2013, 06:17:33 PM »
According to what I've read, the shadow/highlight mode could technically produce up to 1536 colors, but is so amazingly slow that it can only be used for static images. Oh... as an aside, Toy Story is one of the crappiest games I've ever seen. Holy shit, what a pile. I'd rather play Fantasia... oh wait, that's a pile too... well... Chakan? Another pile... damn... running low on games to play... ah well, low-color-count Sonic it is. :lol:
Didn't Donkey Kong Country push the limit to 4,096 colors on screen at once using a scanline trick? I could have sworn I read that somewhere. Otherwise, the sheer fact that the PCE used hucards and pulled off what it could do for its time was a amazing feat indeed considering how small those things are in comparison to something a neo geo cart. A true predecessor to usb flash drives.


ccovell

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Re: Superiorities of PCE games vs. the others?
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2013, 07:25:44 PM »
According to what I've read, the shadow/highlight mode could technically produce up to 1536 colors, but is so amazingly slow that it can only be used for static images.

For accuracy's sake, shadow/highlight mode does not introduce any problems related to speed; the VDP and CPU can run at the same speed as always.

Where's your source for this being "amazingly" slow?

Black Tiger

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Re: Superiorities of PCE games vs. the others?
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2013, 01:12:08 AM »
I believe that S&H eats up double the visible sprites.


The SNES transparency color counts are a meaningless. It's almost always not used to increase graphical color/detail/shading and even when it is (like in Chrono Trigger), the benefit is minimal and comes with compromises. You don't get graphics that are ten times more detailed, you get the same SNES quality graphics with a piece of overlapping stained glass.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 01:17:44 AM by Black Tiger »
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awack

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Re: Superiorities of PCE games vs. the others?
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2013, 02:39:11 AM »
Comparing the games the pc engine dominates(im only comparing to the snes and genesis) in a couple of areas, and these superiorities came along with the introduction of the cd especially the super cd format...it completely thrashed the competition when it came to action games, when I say action games im talking about games like horizontal and vertical shooters, side scrolling games like shinobi, castlevania, and contra, contra type games are only theoretical though.

Lets compare what many people believe to be the best 16 bit shooter,Thunderforce IV, it has around 450 frames of animation, give or take and about 13 back ground variations, now lets take winds of thunder, it has around 930 frames of animation and 44 back ground variations. The problem with card or cartridge shooters is that they range from 2 to 8 megs in memory, there is one exception and that's the 2nd paroduius game for the snes, it has a whopping 16 to 18 megs of memory, it has around 750 frames of animation and between 15 and 18 back ground variations, so as you can see much better than Thunderforce IV, there is another factor, size, sprite size, big sprites take more memory than tiny sprites, below are the regular enemies from WOT and Parodius 2, no bosses.

WOT


Parodius 2 snes


The most impressive action games are around 16 or a little over megs, like Batman & robin for the genesis, Dracula xx for the snes(yes Dracxx is one of the most impressive when it comes to sprite frames, Back ground variation and sprite size) etc, Castlevania Blood lines and Super castlevania both have around 650 frames of animation in total, the above games have about 1020 and 1030 total frames. The Batman game has between 1020 and 1050 frames of animation and 17 or 18 back ground variations, Rondo of blood has over 3000 frames of animation and 59 back ground variations, lets not forget that the pce has half a meg of memory for adpcm soundfx, which I have heard could also be used to store graphic info like sprite and tile sets, what that means is that these card and cartridge games have a good number of soundfx Rondo has a huuuuuge number of unique soundfx.....Rondo also has far more BG tile animation, on top of all of this, you also get what cds are known for cut scenes.

The sprites in Rondo are huge, SCIV, Bloodlines, Batman and robin etc don't even come close, the closest one infact is Dracxx, a lot of the enemies that were cut from dracxx were some of the largest sprites in rondo, the largest animated fx were also cut out, enemy attacks in Rondo of bloodl like lightning, skull projectiles, wave attacks and item crushes are much larger than any sprite found in SCIV, in other words Rondo of blood is pure magic.

Rondo


SCIV snes


While the PCE is my favorite system because action games are my favorite type of games, im not saying its the best system, because other genres are lacking on the super cd format, like side scrolling brawlers, one on one fighters, platform games like Yoshis island sonic 3 or ristar and platform shooters, which actually fall in the action game category, amazing games of this type could have been produced for this system like a contra game,  but the system didn't get one nor did it get a brawler of the same quality of streets of rage 2 or 3 for the genesis or final fight 3 for the snes.

I haven't talked about the ACD, which took this crap to a whole new level, Fatal fury special is probably the most impressive game for the ACD, no gen or snes fighter even comes close when you look at sprite size, animation and so on, im tired but I might go into some of this furhter a little bit later.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 02:52:47 AM by awack »

ccovell

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Re: Superiorities of PCE games vs. the others?
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2013, 02:59:44 AM »
The SNES transparency color counts are a meaningless. It's almost always not used to...

The OP asked his question in a way that could be interpreted as a "hardware superiority" question, or as a "game superiority" question, quite cleverly.  However, I do not think it is a good idea to switch the topic from the former to the latter whenever superiority of the SNES, Genesis, etc. on a specific point becomes apparent.

For example: "The TGX wins in # of onscreen colours"  "No, the SNES does, technically."  "Yeah, but the way they are used..."  leads a simple discussion down confusing avenues.  # of colours is a measurable hardware stat, while artistic talent is a whole subjective topic to itself.

Comparative capabilities of systems is a very interesting topic in and of itself.  Discussions of actual execution are great too, but not in the same breath, because it always causes the logical thread of these discussions to unravel.