Looking for an artist to collaborate on a shooter

[spenoza]

If siskan has a tool he's happy with and prefers it to others, don't tell him he's wrong for using it. The actual art portion of pixel graphics is harder than palettes and formats. Those can be altered and fixed more easily than trying to hijack artistic talent. You have to start showing a little respect for others' choices sometimes. You don't have a monopoly on correctness and good sense.

[Arkhan]

If siskan has a tool he's happy with and prefers it to others, don't tell him he's wrong for using it. The actual art portion of pixel graphics is harder than palettes and formats. Those can be altered and fixed more easily than trying to hijack artistic talent.

My point is, not planning for indexed palettes ahead of time can shoot you in the foot.

It can create more work for you in the long run.  Relying on conversions isn't always ideal.  Especially when you're making high color images.  You can get away with half assing the planning when color counts are low, but the more you add, the less-safe it becomes.

I think Graphics Gale will at least let you make a BMP that uses indexed colors, so you can probably do that.  (Make it 256 colors or less).  It should at least convert to PCX reliably.  It might invert the palette, though.

I didn't say Siskan was wrong for using Graphics Gale.  Don't put words in my mouth.

I argued that I doubt OTHER programs are actually inferior to Graphics Gale.  Most notabley, Paint Shop Pro.  The only inferior part might be that they aren't free like Graphics Gale, which can help create a bit of bias.

and, since pixel art is the task at hand here, I would still argue that a program like Grafx2 is the best for the job, provided you want an Amiga experience.   It was designed for pixel art.

I'd also like to know where you're coming from claiming things can be altered/fixed easily.   Do you even do pixel art?   Screwing with pictures and redoing work is annoying and tedious. 

You have to start showing a little respect for others' choices sometimes. You don't have a monopoly on correctness and good sense.

Spare me the lame philosophical bullshit, Spenoza. 

This is people discussing various paint programs and basically pointing out the pros/cons.

It's not me trying to force someone to make new life choices.  If Siskan wants to keep using GraphicsGale, that's fine.  If he's used all of the programs I mentioned and decided he doesn't like them, that's fine too.

If he produces stuff that ends up being usable, even better.     If not, I told you so.

Though, one thing I do have is the experience of dealing with putting crap on the PCE for what, 5 years now?   

Consider it cautionary advice from someone who's been there/done that.

I have GraphicsGale, Pixie, Grafx2, Photoshop, Paintshop Pro, and NeoPaint all installed.

Once you tread into PCX territory, I find that Gfx2, PSP and Neopaint do the best job of letting you deal with palettes.

[VenomMacbeth]

I've never done pixel art, but I doodle spaceships & things all the damn time.  I need to figure out how to translate my art to pixels, as I'd love to collaborate on projects such as this.

[lord_cack]

.... I use MS Paint.... and what  ....

[Necromancer]

Unlike that pussy Ark and his fancy 'computer' things, I use crayolas and big chief tablets. 

[Arkhan]

Unlike that pussy Ark and his fancy 'computer' things, I use crayolas and big chief tablets. 

you best be using the 500 color pack with the built in sharpener.  That's how all the real bitches roll.

[spenoza]

My point is, not planning for indexed palettes ahead of time can shoot you in the foot.

If that's the core point, why didn't you just say that up front instead of couching it in terms of attempts to push other programs?

I didn't say Siskan was wrong for using Graphics Gale.  Don't put words in my mouth.

Ummm... Your opening response to Siskan was...

Better learn a paint program that supports PCX, then!

If "you're using the wrong program" isn't what that explicitly meant, then what language are you communicating in, again?

This is people discussing various paint programs and basically pointing out the pros/cons.
...
It's not me trying to force someone to make new life choices.

No, you're not trying to force him, but you sure are trying REALLY hard to convince him (persistently, though not particularly successfully). Besides, this thread isn't about comparing various paint programs. It's Lochlan's thread soliciting an artist, and Siskan spoke up. If Lochlan wants PCE-ready art (rather than merely attractive pixel art to modify to PCE-ready status himself) let him and Siskan sort it out. You've already made yourself available for assistance. Let them come to you when they want/need it, not before.

Sometimes I like to eat my pie or cake with a spoon. I don't care if you like a fork better.

[Arkhan]

If that's the core point, why didn't you just say that up front instead of couching it in terms of attempts to push other programs?

Because sometimes, suggesting other programs is how people find new software to try out?...  If I just went with the ONE program I found instead of digging around and asking around, I'd still be using PC Paintbrush in DOSBox.    I'm sorry you have a problem with "oppression".

Ummm... Your opening response to Siskan was...

Congratulations.  You can't read.

That says "better learn a paint program that supports PCX".   That doesn't mean "The one you're using means you are wrong."

It means, jee, it would be good to know how to work one that can support PCX for various reasons including conversion and palette information. 

It doesn't mean "Stop what you're doing and abandon it forever.". 

You'll note, during the course of this discussion, that the inverted palette issue popped up and one way to work around it was suggested (by someone else, not me.).   So, again, this is a discussion.  People are talking about things.   If you don't like it, go read a different thread instead of being a boyscout.

If "you're using the wrong program" isn't what that explicitly meant, then what language are you communicating in, again?

English.  You just chose to read into it a certain way because you're always quick to go all PC boyscout during discussions that you think might be heated or whatever.  That's your problem.

No, you're not trying to force him, but you sure are trying REALLY hard to convince him (persistently, though not particularly successfully).

If you think that is persistence and hard effort, I question how much you pay attention to me on this forum.  This is normal.

Besides, this thread isn't about comparing various paint programs. It's Lochlan's thread soliciting an artist, and Siskan spoke up. If Lochlan wants PCE-ready art (rather than merely attractive pixel art to modify to PCE-ready status himself) let him and Siskan sort it out. You've already made yourself available for assistance. Let them come to you when they want/need it, not before.

Who says a topic can't diverge a little bit into another discussion?  You?   f*ck that.

The only person complaining is you, and you're going about it for the wrong reasons.

Sometimes I like to eat my pie or cake with a spoon. I don't care if you like a fork better.

This is a matter of "sometimes the fork might be upside down, or the tines might go the wrong way.  You should make sure you're aware and ready to deal with this issue.  Here are some suggestions that will help."


I mean, Siskan's workflow can go something like this:

Paint in graphics gale
Open in PaintShopPro or Grafx2
Save as PCX
Make sure palettes look like they are indexed right
Hand file to Lochlan
Insert into game
Success.

[Siskan]

I mean, Siskan's workflow can go something like this:

Paint in graphics gale
Open in PaintShopPro or Grafx2
Save as PCX
Make sure palettes look like they are indexed right
Hand file to Lochlan
Insert into game
Success.

Exactly. So there's no need to actually use these to create the pixel art in the first place. So I don't see why it's so important for you to have me change my ways. Sure, the initial pointers were appreciated but after that I got the impression that you tried to talk me over rather than explaining something I didn't know.

Also, I can see why you want to get your point through and all, but I see no point in making it such a big deal. Spenoza may or may not have read your words the way you intended, but he kept a good tone while I'm afraid you didn't. Better learn a new way of argumentation that supports a peaceful discussion climate. ; )

[Necromancer]

Better learn a new way of argumentation that supports a peaceful discussion climate. ; )

Ha!  What is it with these can't-we-all-just-get-along people lately?  Did I wander into a hippie commune again; if so, where's all the nekkid womens of loose virtue?

[Arkhan]

Exactly. So there's no need to actually use these to create the pixel art in the first place. So I don't see why it's so important for you to have me change my ways. Sure, the initial pointers were appreciated but after that I got the impression that you tried to talk me over rather than explaining something I didn't know.

My talking over was more of me mostly just questioning the truth behind your statement of something like PSP being inferior to GraphicsGale.   There's a reason one costs money and one doesn't.  I've yet to see real reasons that back up the inferiority.

and yes, I'm not 100% suggesting you drop one paint program to use another.  You probably could, with some of the suggested programs, but that's not the point.

It just helps to be familiar with ones that actually support PCX.  Even if you're just opening a PCX, viewing the palette, possibly saving/editing a color, and then closing the program down.   Otherwise you'll be constantly fiddling with a file, running it through a convertor, and then seeing if the results are what you want. 

Also, I can see why you want to get your point through and all, but I see no point in making it such a big deal. Spenoza may or may not have read your words the way you intended, but he kept a good tone while I'm afraid you didn't. Better learn a new way of argumentation that supports a peaceful discussion climate. ; )

lol, what.

Welcome to PCEFX.  I'm Arkhan.  This is how I talk.

[Siskan]

and yes, I'm not 100% suggesting you drop one paint program to use another.

Well it sure seemed so judging by your later posts.

I should have been more clear about one thing though. I never really had any kind of conversion utility in mind. What I really meant was saving what I've used in a software supporting pcx, such as the ones you mentioned.

lol, what.

Welcome to PCEFX.  I'm Arkhan.  This is how I talk.

You probably don't care, but it sure would be nicer for most people (including yourself) if you had a friendlier attitude.

I personally dropped out of this software conversation because I wasn't interested in arguing with you. Then someone stepped in and to defend my cause and got some ugly feedback from you. So even if I'd rather not be involved, this still largely involves me. So think twice and show some consideration.

I came to this site to share my enthusiasm with other people and educating myself, not to end up being the subject of some bad tempered argument. Though seeing as Necromancer's post seems to indicate it's strange to want a nice environment, I'm not sure I've come to the right place anymore.

[turboswimbz]

I'm not sure I've come to the right place anymore.

You seem like a good guy Siskan.   Don't take it to heart.  Sure you've come to the right place.  But you have to realize this place is more of a back ally than a main street at times.  This forum isn't like to many others.  It is not always nice here.  That's not to say it isn't full of some of the nicest damn people you'd ever want to meet, It means we are all VERY crazy.  All in our own way.

FOr instance Ark's like that crazy frat brother that is always right and telling you where to stick it.  But you gotta realize he means well most the time or is just joking.  Like the Frat Bro, he's also the first one next to you at the gym, saying "come on dude you got this".  Necro on the other hand, is that wise guy in the corner just waiting for something to start so he can point out the stupidity or call ya out on something.  Anyway you look at it Necro and the majority of us like the drama around here for sure. Keeps things fun and interesting, but we rarely mean it mean spirited.  Kinda like a locker room round here, we joke, we call people out on stuff, we even partake in flan,  And in all it keeps this place different from the other forums.
 
This most likely isn't a place to have a serious discussion on being nice, it'll just get shot down too easy as you taking things to seriously.  I understand what you're getting at, but I'm just pointing out that the best thing to do is to just end the conversation if you feel someone is acting inappropriate like you did before. 

But overall to my point, most of the folks here are great.  And I guess that's why I'm responding to your post Siskan, I love this offbeat little corner of vidya game-in. Yeah a few are a little more boisterous than others, but hey that's the great thing about the PCE, it brings many different people together to enjoy it.  I've learned a ton from Necro, Ark, and the boisterous posters, I laugh with Tats and Estebans crazy and silly posts, and guys like BlueBMW, Chop5, Turboken, theSteve and so many more are so darn generous and helpful it'll all but kill ya. 

[Siskan]

I'm not sure I've come to the right place anymore.

You seem like a good guy Siskan.   Don't take it to heart.  Sure you've come to the right place.  But you have to realize this place is more of a back ally than a main street at times.  This forum isn't like to many others.  It is not always nice here.  That's not to say it isn't full of some of the nicest damn people you'd ever want to meet, It means we are all VERY crazy.  All in our own way.

FOr instance Ark's like that crazy frat brother that is always right and telling you where to stick it.  But you gotta realize he means well most the time or is just joking.  Like the Frat Bro, he's also the first one next to you at the gym, saying "come on dude you got this".  Necro on the other hand, is that wise guy in the corner just waiting for something to start so he can point out the stupidity or call ya out on something.  Anyway you look at it Necro and the majority of us like the drama around here for sure. Keeps things fun and interesting, but we rarely mean it mean spirited.  Kinda like a locker room round here, we joke, we call people out on stuff, we even partake in flan,  And in all it keeps this place different from the other forums.
 
This most likely isn't a place to have a serious discussion on being nice, it'll just get shot down too easy as you taking things to seriously.  I understand what you're getting at, but I'm just pointing out that the best thing to do is to just end the conversation if you feel someone is acting inappropriate like you did before. 

But overall to my point, most of the folks here are great.  And I guess that's why I'm responding to your post Siskan, I love this offbeat little corner of vidya game-in. Yeah a few are a little more boisterous than others, but hey that's the great thing about the PCE, it brings many different people together to enjoy it.  I've learned a ton from Necro, Ark, and the boisterous posters, I laugh with Tats and Estebans crazy and silly posts, and guys like BlueBMW, Chop5, Turboken, theSteve and so many more are so darn generous and helpful it'll all but kill ya. 

Thanks for taking you time. Well, I'm not really so fragile that I'm taking all this to heart and feeling all bad and so on, but I'm not entirely comfortable around it either. And I'm surely not here for drama just as well as I'm not the kind of guy who thinks it's funny when people are being rude (unless it's fiction).

[turboswimbz]

I understand that. And that is fine. In fact it's cool you are quite nice. I'm just saying don't let one bad experience take you away from here, small stuff like this happens all the time.  I like fellows like yourself.