3-way battle! Spriggan vs. M.U.S.H.A. vs. Robo Aleste

[Tatsujin]

spriggan is the clear winner here.. but I also very much like musha aleste, especially regarded its age.

never could quite fit into dennin aleste. imo a rather bland shwety and never liked its color scheme. still worth of owning it if you're a shewty fan.

Spriggan only came out 8 months after Musha and is the equivalent of a <4Mb cart game if you don't count the CD music and most of the cinemas. It totally could have been a HuCard game if the CD format wasn't so popular.

you're right about the only 8 month.

but are you also sure about the only 4Mbit content on all the ingame graphics added up in spriggan? it seems to me like so much of data in that game, when looking at all these wonderful and with a lot of variety BGs and bosses with transformations etc. not too much far away of a sapphire actually..hehe

There are 7 loaded sections at 1/2meg each. Without even discounting the re-used code (which Tom says can take up as much as 1/4 meg) and re-used graphicsper load, the entire game is already under 4 megs and the final stage likely doesn't use a full 1/2 meg. So you could have a typical title screen and credits with chip sounds at 4 megs.

It seems hard to believe, but it's also hard to believe it's a CD2 game at all. Although there are so many CD2 games like that.

Meanwhile, Robo Aleste has 6 megs available per stage/load.

maybe youre right. I also kind of remember that there are short load times before the bosses? have to check on that again.
did you also include the additional available 64KB from the CD-ROMS ADPCM memory, which can be used for graphics as well? Thye might have used some of that RAM too. then it could go up to something around 8Mbit easily.
anyhow, only looking into the software would tell us how much in gameplay code and graphics was exactly used.

still very very impressive, as I'm keep telling myself as well since back in the days

[fragmare]

If you're going to include both MUSHA and Robo Aleste, you gotta have Gunhed along with Spriggan.

You are not a mech in Gunhed.  Gunhed would be more aptly compared to Super Aleste on the SNES.

[Tatsujin]

This posts needs more pixels!!

lol, what an unflattering picture?


now how about these:

[awack]

maybe youre right. I also kind of remember that there are short load times before the bosses? have to check on that again.
did you also include the additional available 64KB from the CD-ROMS ADPCM memory, which can be used for graphics as well? Thye might have used some of that RAM too. then it could go up to something around 8Mbit easily.
anyhow, only looking into the software would tell us how much in gameplay code and graphics was exactly used.

Your right, it has 64kb +64kb each level or load, even if it is only used for sound, that frees up the main memory for only code and graphics.....the 4 megs in musha has to be used for mundane things such as ending credits, title screen, the very nice looking opening cutscenes, the ending scenes, music, sound fx, code and ingame graphics, so you start to see why it looks  more impressive when compared to other 16bit vertical scrolling shooters, on cartridge or hucard format. Just look at the first level alone, the floating crystal city and then the floating castle with the green lightning in the BG, the variation in BG tiles and sprites is fantastic.

To think that Spriggan isn't even optimized, what I mean by optimized is two loads per level that don't hurt the flow of the game, the only CDROM2 game that comes to mind right now that is optimized,(two loads plus Super CD compatible) is Macross 2036, in my opinion this full potential is not always fully realized, one level that is though has you starting out in space where you pass a moon then come to a large space fortress/craft, then your inside the fortress, then you have a separate back ground not one but two large bosses plus your own ship is a completely different sprite, after defeating the two bosses you go to yet another unique back ground, where you fight another huge boss, with beautiful animation, the its attacks are very well done, on top of that you have several very, very slightly animated pictures that pop up during the level...name one horizontal hucard shooter that's any where near as impressive as this and when you factor in the ADPCM sound fx which are amazing, it becomes even more impressive.

[fragmare]

name one horizontal hucard shooter that's any where near as impressive as this

Soldier Blade 

Honestly, seeing the kind of graphical diversity in Spriggan on a Standard CD-ROM2 game (with 64KB memory to work with) is MORE impressive than seeing the same graphical diversity on a HuCard.  Why?  Because when you insert a HuCard into the system, the CPU can see and access ANYTHING on that HuCard almost instantly... all the way up to 1024KB (8Mbit).  In contrast, when a CD game loads up a level from the disc, the CPU can *ONLY* see what's been loaded into memory (64KB standard, 256KB for Super CD, another 64KB if you choose to use ADPCM RAM for data instead of sound), without hitting the disc again for more data.  This is why the Arcade Card (18,432KB of memory) was so helpful in porting NeoGeo fighters with large sprites and many animation frames.  And also why SF2:CE was made a 20Mbit HuCard and not developed for the Super CD-ROM2.

[awack]

Soldier Blade

That's a vertical shooter but I got to admit, for only 4megs its very impressive.

Honestly, seeing the kind of graphical diversity in Spriggan on a Standard CD-ROM2 game (with 64KB memory to work with) is MORE impressive than seeing the same graphical diversity on a HuCard.  Why?  Because when you insert a HuCard into the system, the CPU can see and access ANYTHING on that HuCard almost instantly... all the way up to 1024KB (8Mbit).  In contrast, when a CD game loads up a level from the disc, the CPU can *ONLY* see what's been loaded into memory (64KB standard, 256KB for Super CD, another 64KB if you choose to use ADPCM RAM for data instead of sound), without hitting the disc again for more data.  This is why the Arcade Card (18,432KB of memory) was so helpful in porting NeoGeo fighters with large sprites and many animation frames.  And also why SF2:CE was made a 20Mbit HuCard and not developed for the Super CD-ROM2.

Yeah, the ACD is fantastic for fighting games, because the way those games use their memory...for action games, Valis, castlevania, contra, shinobi, gate of thunder thunder force 3 etc, etc, the CD ROM2 for its time period, early 16bit was very good, and the super CD for its time period 1992 to 1995 was awesome, that gives you a potential of 5 megs per level, which gives you amazing games like Rondo, Winds of thunder etc... there is redundancy of course but none of that 5 megs includes music, opening, middle and closing cutscenes, as well as credits, title screens etc....of course you could do what Shadowgate did and access the CD every 5 seconds, or Tenchi o karu and which basically continuously accesses the CD that means of course that you cant play music from the CD.

[fragmare]

Soldier Blade

That's a vertical shooter but I got to admit, for only 4megs its very impressive.

Honestly, seeing the kind of graphical diversity in Spriggan on a Standard CD-ROM2 game (with 64KB memory to work with) is MORE impressive than seeing the same graphical diversity on a HuCard.  Why?  Because when you insert a HuCard into the system, the CPU can see and access ANYTHING on that HuCard almost instantly... all the way up to 1024KB (8Mbit).  In contrast, when a CD game loads up a level from the disc, the CPU can *ONLY* see what's been loaded into memory (64KB standard, 256KB for Super CD, another 64KB if you choose to use ADPCM RAM for data instead of sound), without hitting the disc again for more data.  This is why the Arcade Card (18,432KB of memory) was so helpful in porting NeoGeo fighters with large sprites and many animation frames.  And also why SF2:CE was made a 20Mbit HuCard and not developed for the Super CD-ROM2.

Yeah, the ACD is fantastic for fighting games, because the way those games use their memory...for action games, Valis, castlevania, contra, shinobi, gate of thunder thunder force 3 etc, etc, the CD ROM2 for its time period, early 16bit was very good, and the super CD for its time period 1992 to 1995 was awesome, that gives you a potential of 5 megs per level, which gives you amazing games like Rondo, Winds of thunder etc... there is redundancy of course but none of that 5 megs includes music, opening, middle and closing cutscenes, as well as credits, title screens etc....of course you could do what Shadowgate did and access the CD every 5 seconds, or Tenchi o karu and which basically continuously accesses the CD that means of course that you cant play music from the CD.

Ohh, hori hucards only... hmmm....

R-Type is still impressive to this day, imo.  Aldynes rocks too, but that's a SuperGrafx game too.  Why would compare horizontal hucard shmups to a vertical CD shmup anyway?

Also, I'm not sure where you're getting the 5Mbit figure for memory from.  The Super CD-ROM2 has a grand total of 256KB (2Mbit) of memory, not counting ADPCM RAM.

[Necromancer]

Also, I'm not sure where you're getting the 5Mbit figure for memory from.  The Super CD-ROM2 has a grand total of 256KB (2Mbit) of memory, not counting ADPCM RAM.

Two loads per level including the ADPCM.

[fragmare]

Ah, i see.  Didn't Spriggan use some ADPCM sounds, though?

[Necromancer]

Sound or data doesn't really matter when comparing to a cartridge game, as the cartridge will have sound stuff too.

[fragmare]

Sound or data doesn't really matter when comparing to a cartridge game, as the cartridge will have sound stuff too.

My point is if you're using the ADPCM RAM for sounds, it can't be used for data/graphics.  And I don't think you can mix them in ADPCM RAM either.

[A Black Falcon]

I would say Musha is over priced versus over rated. I find it to be a great shooter, next to TF3 for me. If over priced means over rated then I stand corrected.

OBEY or GTFO©, Spriggan gets my vote. On this poll, I actually own all three!

MUSHA is expensive, sure, but I think it's overrated gameplay-wise compared to Spriggan or Robo Aleste, too; it's a good game, but I don't enjoy it nearly as much as I do Robo Aleste.  I know that ones' somewhat less popular (Genesis fans much prefer MUSHA to Robo Aleste overall too, for sure), but I think their changes for Robo Aleste improved the formula, myself... all three games work from the same basic game design, but Robo Aleste is the best one.  (Blazing Lazers and Space Megaforce, of course, play differently from these three, so I agree in making that a separate comparison.)

It[Musha] was one of the more forgettable early Genesis games and Phelios had much more of an impact on me.

Two words: Nekked chicks

Robo Aleste has that too, or at least the Japanese version, Dennin Aleste, does... that cutscene was cut out of the Western release.

[roflmao]

MUSHA is one of my favorites on the MD.  It always has been.  Robo Aleste doesn't even come close to being as good as MUSHA, and neither of them can touch Spriggan.  Robo Aleste is just too slow for me and the level design is pretty bland.  I also am not huge on the weapons.  I was very disappointed when it first came out and I got it for the Sega CD.  Even after playing Spriggan I can still go back and enjoy MUSHA.  Robo Aleste I really really really have to be in the mood to play it.

This

That

The other.

I voted Spriggan.  Possibly my favorite PCE game EVAR.

[awack]

Sorry about the late response but yeah, Necromancer got it, 5 megs per level is of course Theoretical, not all games necessarily takes full advantage of whats available.

A good example is the boss gauntlet/shaft fight in rondo, the 2 loads you have during that one level gives you 5 beautifully  animated bosses as well as a very large number of adpcm sound fx, shaft says each attack and he says something different for each attack, along with the other sound fx that happen during his fight then add to that the sound fx for medusa, Frankenstein the bat and the mummy .....rondo is loaded with an astonishing amount of unique sndfx, PCM and ADPCM.

It should be pointed out that most games are not (by my definition) optimized, but are amazing never the less, one of those games is Gate of thunder, yet it delivers a huge amount of unique BG tiles and sprites/frames, and those sprites are huge.

[vestcoat]

WTF. 1) These endless mashups are retarded. 2) None of these games were even released on the Turbografx/Turbo Duo.