What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo

[Necromancer]

I can't think of even one reason why the fact that the Duo replaced the PCE/TG16, while the Twin Famicom did not replace the Famicom and the CDX did not replace the Genesis, is at all relevant when classifying them.

The best reason is because of how the manufacturers marketed them.  NEC treated the CD add-on as an integral piece of the pie from DAY ONE, whereas other things were marketed as non-essential add-ons or as next gen (32x).  Good luck finding an NEC employee that believes they "abandoned" the PCE in '94 ('92 really).

First, is there any basis for thinking that the Turbo CD was ACTUALLY originally "intended to replace" the PCE HuCard system?  It was intended as a supplement, but as a replacement?  Hudson's continued support for HuCards up until the end of '93 suggests otherwise, considering that they invented the thing.  It was meant as a supplement....

It can't be a supplement and a completely different system.  Make up your mind.

the Atari 5200, Colecovision, and Vectrex are in no way 2nd-gen.  They are early 3rd gen systems......
It and the 5200 are in the same place as the Turbografx in the 4th generation......

Makes total sense.  In truth it spans three console generations!  DO THE MATH!!!!!

.... you have to be consistent.  The things some people said here about how the 32X or Sega CD don't really count because they have more processors in them while the Turbo CD doesn't, or whatever... come on, that's just being biased.

It's not biased to consistently separate based on whether or not the add-on is just a storage medium (TG-CD, Famicom disk, etc.) or add additional hardware capabilities beyond just storage (32x, Sega CD, etc.).  It's not at all hard to see the difference.  By the way, the SF numbers I posted included Satteleview, as did the Sega numbers I compiled but didn't bother to post.


But I digress.  Any time someone starts arguing about the Kinect being relevant to anything, they clearly aren't capable of intelligent discussions.

[A Black Falcon]

The best reason is because of how the manufacturers marketed them.  NEC treated the CD add-on as an integral piece of the pie from DAY ONE, whereas other things were marketed as non-essential add-ons or as next gen (32x).  Good luck finding an NEC employee that believes they "abandoned" the PCE in '94 ('92 really).

Once again, did they really?  "Integral piece of the pie" from day one in December 1988?  But NEC didn't even release a Turbo CD game until September 1989!  That's not "from day one".   It wasn't uintil 1991 that NEC decided to focus on the Turbo CD as their main platform.  Look at their 1989-1990 CD release libraries if you want to see that.  Their only CD releases in '89 -- again, the first one coming in September -- were Altered Beast CD, the first three volumes of Rom Rom Karaoke, and Sidearms Special.  In 1990 all they had on CD was Super Darius and two more volumes of Rom Rom Karaoke.  That's a thin lineup of three games previously or also available on HuCard and five volumes of karaoke.  Finally in 1991 NEC got serious on CDs and released a lot more stuff for it: Quiz Avenue, Hellfire S, Download 2, Splash Lake, and Quiz Avenue 2, and on from there in '92 to '97. (Their first Super CD game was in March '92.)

It can't be a supplement and a completely different system.  Make up your mind.

Addons kind of are a weird middle-ground between supplements and completely different systems, though.  They kind of go in both categories...

Makes total sense.  In truth it spans three console generations!  DO THE MATH!!!!!

The "4th" part is obviously a mistake, I meant 3rd gen of course.  Everything from the Colecovision to the Master System is 3rd-gen.  And yes, this means Atari and Sega each had two 3rd gen consoles.  Nintendo improved the NES via mapper chips, while Atari and Sega instead released entirely new systems.  They weren't far enoughaway from their predecessors in time or power to be full next-gen machines, though -- compare any of them to the TG16 to see that.  The 7800 is MUCH closer to the 5200 than it is the TG16, for instance.

It's not biased to consistently separate based on whether or not the add-on is just a storage medium (TG-CD, Famicom disk, etc.) or add additional hardware capabilities beyond just storage (32x, Sega CD, etc.).  It's not at all hard to see the difference.

Adding a CD storage medium radically alters what you can do in games in certain important ways -- videos, voice acting, CD audio, etc.  Even just on its own it's a huge change for the time.  Sure, the TCD doesn't have scaling and rotation chips like the Sega CD does, but it's not less of an addon because of that.

By the way, the SF numbers I posted included Satteleview, as did the Sega numbers I compiled but didn't bother to post.

The Satellaview didn't have stand-alone games, so it couldn't have "included the Satellaview"; as far as I know, as long as you were paying for the service and had the addon you could download anything for free during its transmission times.

But as for Sega numbers, mixing together the Genesis, Sega CD, and 32X should not be done, just like how the TG16 and TCD should not be mixed.  Or at least, list both the separated AND mixed totals; that would be okay too.

But I digress.  Any time someone starts arguing about the Kinect being relevant to anything, they clearly aren't capable of intelligent discussions.

So 24 million sales are irrelevant just because you say so and dislike it?  Uh, that's not right.  I've never used the Kinect myself and doubt it works well for most games, but that's completely besides the point.

[Black Tiger]

Once again, did they really?  "Integral piece of the pie" from day one in December 1988?  But NEC didn't even release a Turbo CD game until September 1989!  That's not "from day one".   It wasn't uintil 1991 that NEC decided to focus on the Turbo CD as their main platform.  Look at their 1989-1990 CD release libraries if you want to see that.  Their only CD releases in '89 -- again, the first one coming in September -- were Altered Beast CD, the first three volumes of Rom Rom Karaoke, and Sidearms Special.  In 1990 all they had on CD was Super Darius and two more volumes of Rom Rom Karaoke.  That's a thin lineup of three games previously or also available on HuCard and five volumes of karaoke.  Finally in 1991 NEC got serious on CDs and released a lot more stuff for it: Quiz Avenue, Hellfire S, Download 2, Splash Lake, and Quiz Avenue 2, and on from there in '92 to '97. (Their first Super CD game was in March '92.)

Once again, if you refuse to take everyone's word for it, research it yourself and ignore your current source of bogus info. NEC agreed to partner with Hudson on the condition that they push the CD format. Hudson's hardware, which they first offered to Nintendo, was strictly HuCard based. You are correct that it wasn't "from day one", as it was actually from before day one. Before anything was launched, they were showing off the CD-ROM.

The hardware and software actually originated in Japan and NEC and Hudson Soft are Japanese companies. The North American Turbo line was released after the original Japanese version, called the "PC Engine". The first CD games were released in 1988 and the PC Engine CD format is as old as the Sega "Mega Drive" (which is actually the original form of the Sega Genesis)! Two of those 1988 games took advantage of the CD format and provide an experience that both the "Famicom" (NES) and "Super Famicom" (SNES) never did. Two years before the SFC even launched. NO RI KO in particular was the ultimate killer app.

All along, Hudson showed off stuff like the long delayed Tengai Makyou, until games were ready to be published. The only reason that CD software trickled out at first and wasn't ready at launch, is because developing CD games at the time was a huge undertaking, as they learned through trial and error.

[Punch]

NO RI KO in particular was the ultimate killer app.

wait what

[A Black Falcon]

Once again, did they really?  "Integral piece of the pie" from day one in December 1988?  But NEC didn't even release a Turbo CD game until September 1989!  That's not "from day one".   It wasn't uintil 1991 that NEC decided to focus on the Turbo CD as their main platform.  Look at their 1989-1990 CD release libraries if you want to see that.  Their only CD releases in '89 -- again, the first one coming in September -- were Altered Beast CD, the first three volumes of Rom Rom Karaoke, and Sidearms Special.  In 1990 all they had on CD was Super Darius and two more volumes of Rom Rom Karaoke.  That's a thin lineup of three games previously or also available on HuCard and five volumes of karaoke.  Finally in 1991 NEC got serious on CDs and released a lot more stuff for it: Quiz Avenue, Hellfire S, Download 2, Splash Lake, and Quiz Avenue 2, and on from there in '92 to '97. (Their first Super CD game was in March '92.)

Once again, if you refuse to take everyone's word for it, research it yourself and ignore your current source of bogus info. NEC agreed to partner with Hudson on the condition that they push the CD format. Hudson's hardware, which they first offered to Nintendo, was strictly HuCard based. You are correct that it wasn't "from day one", as it was actually from before day one. Before anything was launched, they were showing off the CD-ROM.

First, NEC's actual release library is not "bogus info".  It's reality.  It took NEC over two years before they started actually caring about releasing original games for the Turbo CD.  If you know everything about the system, you surely know that NEC didn't actually start giving serious support to the Turbo CD until 1991, several years into its life!

Also, everything I've read has always said that the idea for the Turbo CD came originally from Hudson itself.  Not NEC.  And this makes sense, when you look at the release list and see how Hudson supported the Turbo CD from the beginning, while it took NEC longer to start giving it good support.  If NEC really did demand that the Turbo CD must happen for them to release the TG16, they sure did take their time before giving it good software support.  They kind of made up for that later, but for the first few years Hudson's output for the system was more and better -- Hudson had things other than HuCard ports and Karaoke discs in the first two years!  NEC did not.

I mean, sure, I would believe it if a Hudson pitch to Nintendo was initially HuCard only, but I'm also sure Hudson wanted to do a CD drive too.

The hardware and software actually originated in Japan and NEC and Hudson Soft are Japanese companies. The North American Turbo line was released after the original Japanese version, called the "PC Engine". The first CD games were released in 1988 and the PC Engine CD format is as old as the Sega "Mega Drive" (which is actually the original form of the Sega Genesis)! Two of those 1988 games took advantage of the CD format and provide an experience that both the "Famicom" (NES) and "Super Famicom" (SNES) never did. Two years before the SFC even launched.

Did you even read anything I posted before writing up this insultingly basic and completely irrelevant paragraph that totally misses the point?  Go back and read my quote up there again.  Two hints:

1) I'm talking about NEC's Japanese releases.  Not their American ones.
2) I'm talking about NEC.  Not Hudson.  The two are not the same company.  If you're claiming that NEC was so focused on CDs from the beginning then I'd think that they'd have supported the CD system better early on!  NEC certainly got focused on CDs eventually, but as far as game releases go, their support built quite slowly.

NO RI KO in particular was the ultimate killer app.

And that's not even an NEC game, that's Hudson!

All along, Hudson showed off stuff like the long delayed Tengai Makyou, until games were ready to be published. The only reason that CD software trickled out at first and wasn't ready at launch, is because developing CD games at the time was a huge undertaking, as they learned through trial and error.

Yeah, I know that.  Releasing a CD system in 1988 was pretty crazy forward-thinking, and you definitely do see that when you look at the early library.  But... Tengai Makyou Ziria released in June 1989.  That's a major, and good, Turbo CD exclusive, long before NEC had anything other than Karaoke and HuCard ports.  I know Hudson was a more established developer than NEC, so it makes some sense that at that point Hudson was making more and better games for the system than NEC (as they were), but even in '91 all NEC had on CD were those five games I listed earlier.  That same year Hudson released CD games like Ys III, Dragon Slayer, and Cobra II (and also Populous, Monbit, and Pomping World) -- clearly a better overall library, though the two shmups from NEC are nice.

[shubibiman]

A Black Falcon>sorry to tell you that but it's not because NEC Avenue released their first CD games in 1989 that CD games were not released before that, mainly by Hudson Soft, the company that actually designed the PC Engine.

If you want to debate on something, make sure you're documented.

[A Black Falcon]

A Black Falcon>sorry to tell you that but it's not because NEC Avenue released their first CD games in 1989 that CD games were not released before that, mainly by Hudson Soft, the company that actually designed the PC Engine.

If you want to debate on something, make sure you're documented.

You're not saying anything I didn't know a long time ago, so obviously it has no impact on my point. 

[Black Tiger]

NO RI KO in particular was the ultimate killer app.

wait what

http://www.videogameden.com/cdrom.htm?nor

[A Black Falcon]

NO RI KO in particular was the ultimate killer app.

wait what

http://www.videogameden.com/cdrom.htm?nor

Just because it's the first CD game doesn't mean that it's actually a killer app...

[shubibiman]

A Black Falcon>sorry to tell you that but it's not because NEC Avenue released their first CD games in 1989 that CD games were not released before that, mainly by Hudson Soft, the company that actually designed the PC Engine.

If you want to debate on something, make sure you're documented.

You're not saying anything I didn't know a long time ago, so obviously it has no impact on my point. 

Ok, so why do you make as if you didn't know the differences between NEC HE and NEC Avenue and the true role of Hudson and NEC in the PC Engine's design ?

[Bonknuts]

I do remember seeing pics of the PCE CD prototype before the PCE console was released, so obviously it wasn't an after thought. Funny, internally the PCE was referred to as the 'Core' system and then later on the name was changed to that. Another interesting note; the PCE is the mother of all addon interfaces. What's available on the back plane - it just incredible. No other game console in history had that type of addon support. It was built for addons. It's a shame they didn't do more with it.

 Hudson might have licensed the hardware setup to NEC, but they partnered together. Hudson has always been a software house and has written internal dev tools for Famicom, Sharp X68k, etc. Hudson was NEC's software side, until NEC started creating its own branch. And even then..

 It's funny, the NEC had a close tie with x86 arch as well as making its own clone x86 processors. The official dev softs for the CD unit, refers to internal Zeropage reserved registers (65x thing) with x86 register names; AX(AL/AH), BX(BL/BH), CX(CL/CH), DX(DL/DH), SI, DI, etc. The MCU in the CD unit, is a NEC z80 based processor (this is the chip that manages the port interfacing and requesting status info as well as writing SCSI commands). NEC also released the CD unit for its PC line, which is compatible and fits the original docking bay of the PCE. NEC tasked Hudson with designing the CD unit (it was in some interview). I think it's pretty hard to separate NEC and Hudson, when talking about the PCE. Hudson might have developed the original specs for the PCE, but who knows how much that changed when they partnered with NEC (the GPU can be put into 2bit color tile/cell mode for both sprites/BG).

[A Black Falcon]

I do remember seeing pics of the PCE CD prototype before the PCE console was released, so obviously it wasn't an after thought. Funny, internally the PCE was referred to as the 'Core' system and then later on the name was changed to that. Another interesting note; the PCE is the mother of all addon interfaces. What's available on the back plane - it just incredible. No other game console in history had that type of addon support. It was built for addons. It's a shame they didn't do more with it.

It may be true that there is more available through the back connection than most any other addon port, but many systems certainly are designed for addons, and lots of them have gotten addons.  I mean, sure, it holds back the Sega CD a bit that the port bandwidth is a bit too limited for animation equal to that on carts, but it gets by... and it was designed for an addon like that, they just didn't quite give it enough bandwidth.  But that doesn't mean it wasn't designed for addons from the start, it was!  The same goes for all the other systems with addon ports and the like.

But sure, yeah, the system clearly was designed for addons from the beginning.  We know that Hudson got interested in CDs early on, and NEC was a good partner since they were too...

Hudson might have licensed the hardware setup to NEC, but they partnered together. Hudson has always been a software house and has written internal dev tools for Famicom, Sharp X68k, etc. Hudson was NEC's software side, until NEC started creating its own branch. And even then..

Well, yeah, at first only Hudson did software, but NEC Avenue started publishing its own games by fall '88, and NEC Avenue and Hudson were different companies.  It's definitely a somewhat weird situation, with multiple first-party companies, but that's how it was.  Just about the only other somewhat similar case I can think of is the 3DO, where at first there was no first party studio.  3DO set up one after a little while though, and Panasonic published many games for the system though they didn't develop them in-house (Goldstar/LG and Sanyo published a couple of games each as well).  But another case with multiple different first-party studios with in-house development teams?  Are there any others other than the TG16?

I'm sure NEC and Hudson cooperated, they were working together on the console after all, but they weren't the same exact company.

It's funny, the NEC had a close tie with x86 arch as well as making its own clone x86 processors. The official dev softs for the CD unit, refers to internal Zeropage reserved registers (65x thing) with x86 register names; AX(AL/AH), BX(BL/BH), CX(CL/CH), DX(DL/DH), SI, DI, etc. The MCU in the CD unit, is a NEC z80 based processor (this is the chip that manages the port interfacing and requesting status info as well as writing SCSI commands). NEC also released the CD unit for its PC line, which is compatible and fits the original docking bay of the PCE. NEC tasked Hudson with designing the CD unit (it was in some interview). I think it's pretty hard to separate NEC and Hudson, when talking about the PCE. Hudson might have developed the original specs for the PCE, but who knows how much that changed when they partnered with NEC (the GPU can be put into 2bit color tile/cell mode for both sprites/BG).

Interesting, so NEC actually did have some influence on the hardware?  I thought Hudson had pretty much done the hardware in-house... interesting.  I have heard of the computer you could attach a TCD drive to, though.  They were going to release something similar in the US too of course, but cancelled it...

Anyway though, it may be hard to separate NEFC and Hudson, but they're not the same.  They started at different times ((Hudson ~10 months ahead of NEC on both HuCards and CDs), they ended at different times (NEC continued to publish TCD games regularly for ~16 months after Hudson abandoned the system, while Hudson released many more HuCard games in '92-'93 than NEC, who had almost entirely abandoned HuCards in favor of CDs), etc.  Hudson also continued to support other, mostly Nintendo platforms throughout the TG16/CD/PCFX's lives of course, at first just the NES and SNES but also the SNES starting from late '92, and the Saturn starting in '96 as well.  Except for that last part NEC did not do that; they were Turbo-line exclusive until mid '96, when they admitted that the PC-FX was failing and started supporting the Saturn too.  That both went to the Saturn first after the PC-FX in the 5th generation is similar, and interesting considering how few Genesis and Sega CD games Hudson had made (and were any of them even released in Japan?  As far as I know they were all US/EU only -- Mega Bomberman, SCD Dungeon Explorer, SCD Lords of Thunder, SCD Cobra 2...), but that was during the Saturn's peak of popularity in Japan, so it's understandable either way.

Anyway, yes, I'm sure that Hudson and NEC worked together a lot, cooridinated, etc.  But they were never exactly the same company, and each did their own things.  Their libraries on the TG16/CD have some definite differences, for example... Hudson's games often have a strong unique style which you don't see from NEC.

[Black Tiger]

NEC Ave isn't NEC either. It's just one of their five developing/publishing branches which put out games for Turbo/PCE.

Even Nintendo didn't make all of their own games, like most publishers they just take all the credit.

I've never heard of Hudson being interested in CD technology before NEC. All the stories about their collaboration say that before they did anything, NEC told Hudson that they wanted to make CD games (using theur own computer CD-ROM) a priority. I think that you're just making guesses about history based on game release dates. NEC absolutely ruled the home computer market and the PCE was used to establish disc baded medium as the new standard to this day.

But yeah, Hudson and NEC were separate companies and the PCE was a unique situation. That's what we've been saying all along.

Since NEC insisted on integrating their computer CD-ROM with Hudson's hardware design, they obviously were involved in the process. I think that if any changes were made to Hudson's original cart based hardware, it would have just heen scaling back the audio, since the CD-ROM was going to make it overkill.

[Bonknuts]

I think that if any changes were made to Hudson's original cart based hardware, it would have just heen scaling back the audio, since the CD-ROM was going to make it overkill.

 I've always had that impression as well. Same with the Genesis/Megadrive. They have onboard stereo inputs on the Genesis cart port, but never upgraded the audio (not even a simple self feeding DAC like the NES has). I mean, considering the Genesis got a LOT of flack for this BITD. That would detract from the SegaCD/MegaCD upgrade. Same with the PCE. There's actually one small thing that's missing from the PCE audio, that would greatly enhance the sound output (timbre control). The audio engineer had to have known this. Simply being able to read back the waveform pointer position, means that it could have emulated all kinds of synths sounds (FM, etc).

[A Black Falcon]

NEC Ave isn't NEC either. It's just one of their five developing/publishing branches which put out games for Turbo/PCE.

Oh come on.  NEC Avenue was a division of NEC, just like, say, EAD or NST are divisions of Nintendo, or Sonic Team and SegaSoft are or were divisions of Sega.  NEC Avenue is NEC.

Even Nintendo didn't make all of their own games, like most publishers they just take all the credit.

Sure, that's true, and I'm sure NEC did that too.  But company divisions like NEC Avenue are not that; games that NEC, or NEC Avenue, or whatever published which secretly were developed by some other team would fit that category.  Nintendo and Sega did both do that sometimes, and I'm sure NEC did as well.

I've never heard of Hudson being interested in CD technology before NEC. All the stories about their collaboration say that before they did anything, NEC told Hudson that they wanted to make CD games (using theur own computer CD-ROM) a priority.

Really?  I thought I remember reading about how Hudson was very interested in the CD thing too, and not only because of NEC. Are you sure of this?

I think that you're just making guesses about history based on game release dates.

No, I didn't say that based on game release dates.  That's entirely separate.

NEC absolutely ruled the home computer market and the PCE was used to establish disc baded medium as the new standard to this day.

But yeah, Hudson and NEC were separate companies and the PCE was a unique situation. That's what we've been saying all along.

Huh?  No, someone said that Hudson and NEC were so close that they can't be separated, to explain away the differences between their release histories.  But that's not true, the two are different companies with different strategies, and that's the explanation for it.

Since NEC insisted on integrating their computer CD-ROM with Hudson's hardware design, they obviously were involved in the process. I think that if any changes were made to Hudson's original cart based hardware, it would have just heen scaling back the audio, since the CD-ROM was going to make it overkill.

Yeah, that could be.  Entirely possible.