Author Topic: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo  (Read 8098 times)

Bonknuts

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2014, 11:02:07 AM »
What special case?

 Uhm.. my post already explains why it's a special case scenario? And yes, the case was special too; only hucard to have it AFAIK, and didn't need it. Obviously created for special item appeal. A regular hucard case would have worked just as well. The bump also wasn't needed either. There's nothing under the bump. Another decoration to show that it was 'special'. They could have easily consolidated the mapper and rom into a single regular hucard PCB.

Necromancer

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2014, 11:10:34 AM »
Two years earlier, Populous also got the "special" treatment with double case, hump, and spine card.
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A Black Falcon

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2014, 11:29:48 AM »
What special case?
Uhm.. my post already explains why it's a special case scenario? And yes, the case was special too; only hucard to have it AFAIK, and didn't need it. Obviously created for special item appeal. A regular hucard case would have worked just as well. The bump also wasn't needed either. There's nothing under the bump. Another decoration to show that it was 'special'. They could have easily consolidated the mapper and rom into a single regular hucard PCB.
Yeah, I don't know what you're talking about.  SFII is just a standard dual-jewel case with two standard 1991+ HuCard-holding plastic trays inside, just like all the other Japanese games from 1991 on use.  There's nothing special about it other than that they used a dual-jewel in order to get more shelf space for the game. 

And what bump are you talking about?  Are you talking about the case insides, or the outside?  Outside, it's a completely normal PCE dual-jewel case.  Inside, it's got two normal 1991-on HuCard holders.  It's not special, apart from using a dual-jewel -- which as Necromancer points out, they also used in Populous.  I don't have that game, but I do have several other games with that same kind of HuCard tray in a single jewelcase, such as Spiral Wave, Druaga, and Bomberman '93.  I'm sure anything from late 1991 on uses it.  SFII uses regular HuCard holders in a regular dual-jewel case.

This dumb argument again, eh?  What kind of dullard really found it to be a 'confusing mountain' of hardware?

1)  The Shuttle was nothing but an attempt to sell to people on price.  It was never pushed as an upgrade path.
Sure, but given that they also had the CoreGrafx and CoreGrafx II it seems quite pointless.

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o2)  Unlike the 32x, the Arcade Card was never intended to be (or marketed as) a way to make the PCE competitive with next gen systems; nobody bought it thinking there'd be 100+ games made for it.  Of the games that came out after its release, about one third of 'em used it in one way or another, which hardly makes it an unsupported failure.
Oh, the Arcade Card wasn't supposed to sell?  Yeah, sure.  Then why was it apparently easy to get whole cases of sealed copies of the first Arcade Card game, Fatal Fury 2, for years?  There's only one reason why that could be, and it's that they significantly overprinted copies of the game, surely under-estimating how well the Arcade Card would do.  You can also see the Arcade Card's failure when you look at its games released and games supported list -- most of the games that require the Arcade Card are from 1994, while there are only two from '95 and just one from '96.  Even just Arcade Card-enhanced games thinned out badly in 1995 versus 1994, and there were no more after 1995 -- all 1996, 1997, and 1999 releases, except for that one 1996 game which requires it, are regular Super CD titles.  Clearly the Arcade Card failed to take off like Hudson must have hoped, when you look at how many copies of Fatal Fury 2 they made.  It was one addon too many, and the market didn't bite; they'd released too much stuff, and there wasn't enough to convince people to buy, not with the next generation coming up.

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3) The SGX was admittedly a bit of a blunder, but who gives a shit?  The writing was on the wall almost immediately after launch, so the only people that could feel burned were those that bought it during those few short months.  By the time the Super CD / Duo came out, there was no question which system was the future.
Sure, but you don't think that it hurt NEC at all to have this system release and bomb?  I mean, someone could say that about the 32X, that it only sold well for a few months so it's not that important, but that's obviously not the case at all.  As I said I"m sure the SuperGrafx didn't hurt NEC like the 32X did Sega, but it has to have done some damage to their image, and people who did buy the things, probably harder-core fans, can't have been happy!
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 11:37:17 AM by A Black Falcon »

imparanoic

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2014, 03:43:54 PM »
are you sure about the raised/bump hucards with nothing but empty space, I believe it's really an extended super thin pcb folded within the raised/bump area, there is reference to it, for special games such as populous, there is a battery as well

http://nfggames.com/games/pce/

Black Tiger

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2014, 03:48:32 PM »
are you sure about the raised/bump hucards with nothing but empty space, I believe it's really an extended super thin pcb folded within the raised/bump area, there is reference to it, for special games such as populous, there is a battery as well

http://nfggames.com/games/pce/


There is no battery in Populous. It just has extra ram on the card.
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imparanoic

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2014, 06:48:09 PM »
are you sure about the raised/bump hucards with nothing but empty space, I believe it's really an extended super thin pcb folded within the raised/bump area, there is reference to it, for special games such as populous, there is a battery as well

http://nfggames.com/games/pce/


There is no battery in Populous. It just has extra ram on the card.


according to this site there is a internal battery inside popolus

http://nfggames.com/games/pce/

http://www.videogameden.com/article.htm?hu


Ray

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2014, 07:00:28 PM »
according to this site there is a internal battery inside popolus

http://nfggames.com/games/pce/

http://www.videogameden.com/article.htm?hu

It's a common misconception due to the HuCARD being called a "ROMRAM" HuCARD like the Tennokoe Bank card. It just has more RAM and the bump was used for labeling reasons rather than protecting a battery.(SFII', Super System Card and the Arcade Card Pro were like this as well, although the Arcade Card Duo used a stick-on label instead.)

Necromancer

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2014, 04:53:48 AM »
And what bump are you talking about?

The hump on the hucard.  Duh.

It's not special....

It's special simply because it's Street Fighter II.  Its higher MSRP wasn't to cover manufacturing costs, it was because the license was surely expensive and because they could pad profits.  Again, duh.

Sure, but given that they also had the CoreGrafx and CoreGrafx II it seems quite pointless.

The CGII isn't relevant, seeing as the CGI and Shuttle were no longer being manufactured by the time it came out.  As for the Shuttle and CGI, the Shuttle was cheaper (19,800 yen vs. 24,800); obviously the point was to snag a few more sales from people that wanted a cheaper entry point.  The Shuttle's low sales show that that market was small, but they also show that it didn't hurt the CGI's sales.  It's a non-issue.

Oh, the Arcade Card wasn't supposed to sell?  Yeah, sure.

That's not what I said.  Not even close.

Then why was it apparently easy to get whole cases of sealed copies of the first Arcade Card game, Fatal Fury 2, for years?  There's only one reason why that could be, and it's that they significantly overprinted copies of the game, surely under-estimating how well the Arcade Card would do.

Yeah, I'm sure Fatal Fury Special had nothing to do with its lackluster sales.  For your argument to hold water, there'd have to be an equal number of sealed Arcade Cards available.

You can also see the Arcade Card's failure when you look at its games released and games supported list -- most of the games that require the Arcade Card are from 1994, while there are only two from '95 and just one from '96.

Wrong.  Four are from '95, so 42% of the AC games came out after '94; hardly the immediately abandoned failure you want it to be.

Even just Arcade Card-enhanced games thinned out badly in 1995 versus 1994...

Wrong again.  7 of the 19 came out in '95, meaning 37% came out the second year; and PCE releases in general followed a similar decline, with 84 in '94 and only 39 in '95.

... and there were no more after 1995 -- all 1996, 1997, and 1999 releases, except for that one 1996 game which requires it, are regular Super CD titles.

Still, that's 10%.  It's not like new games were being developed like crazy after '95; and of the whopping ten titles you're whining about, at least two of 'em were developed years earlier (before the AC existed).
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Bonknuts

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2014, 11:08:39 AM »
Quote
Yeah, I don't know what you're talking about.  SFII is just a standard dual-jewel case with two standard 1991+ HuCard-holding plastic trays inside, just like all the other Japanese games from 1991 on use.  There's nothing special about it other than that they used a dual-jewel in order to get more shelf space for the game.


 Just a standard dual-jewel case? As if that was standard for hucards. That's the whole point; the jewel case sets it apart from other 'average' hucard games. SF2 is presented as a special item/released.

 My point being, they could have used a standard jewel case and a normal sized hucard format (no bump).  I'm not sure how I can make this simpler to understand. It was marketed as something special/different/etc. The price they charged, does not realistically reflect the prices hucards would have become as they expanded in size.

Just because the hucard and PCB form factor are small, doesn't mean that roms were costly to manufacture. The size of an actual rom, in a large DIP package, is actually tiny. NEC chose glop-top method, but shallow surface mount packages were also an option (which the arcade card did use). SF2 uses three roms (4+8+8), but they could have easily used one single rom. Hell, they could have even consolidated the rom and mapper chip in one. Anyway, the point being that size of SF2 hucard (rom space) is not an accurate reflection of what the cost would have been to keep the hucard format progressing and expanding to a larger storage need.


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And what bump are you talking about?  Are you talking about the case insides, or the outside?  Outside, it's a completely normal PCE dual-jewel case.  Inside, it's got two normal 1991-on HuCard holders.  It's not special, apart from using a dual-jewel -- which as Necromancer points out, they also used in Populous.  I don't have that game, but I do have several other games with that same kind of HuCard tray in a single jewelcase, such as Spiral Wave, Druaga, and Bomberman '93.  I'm sure anything from late 1991 on uses it.  SFII uses regular HuCard holders in a regular dual-jewel case.

 How could you not understand what I meant by 'bump', especially in relation to SF2, and be part of the PCE community?  :shock: Hucard bumps are famous. People have been curious for years, what was under those bumps.

Black Tiger

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2014, 01:39:08 PM »
Sure, but given that they also had the CoreGrafx and CoreGrafx II it seems quite pointless.


Then this must seem completely ridiculous to you:






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ClodBuster

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2014, 06:44:17 PM »
Even though I can't really contribute anything useful for this topic, I'd like to thank you all for your thoughts, opinions and insights. They make this thread very enjoyable to read.

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SamIAm

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2014, 01:54:03 AM »
I have yet to find a single reliable-looking number for sales of any particular Japanese hucard, which pretty much brings my data-based analysis to a close. I'll chime in real quick on all the hubbub about add-ons and the Arcade Card, though. 

On one hand, I think that the PCE-CD expansion and the Super System Card 3.0 are both examples of add-ons that actually worked, and undoubtedly improved the fate of the system(s) they became part of. The 3.0 Card in particular seems like quite a gamble when you think about it, but everyone pulled completely on the same rope, and it all worked out. Interestingly, if you check a release list, you can see how within about 1 year of the 3.0 system coming out, a significant majority of PCE releases were SCD games.

On the other hand, the Arcade Card was probably not the best idea in the world. It's just that it wound up not mattering much anyway.

See, if NEC had had their act together, they would have released a system with a fighting chance against the Saturn and the Playstation. What they actually released - the PC-FX - was so terrible that it didn't sell as much in three years as the competition sold in literally a few days. But imagine a scenario where NEC had a viable all-around strategy. Part of that has to consist of rallying their fan-base around their next generation console. And of course, one of the most important parts of getting your fans to make that transition is gracefully winding down the previous generation system.

For both consumers and developers, the Arcade Card would have been a distraction, and it would have diverted resources away from the PC-FX and the Super CD system just like the 32X did with the Saturn and the Genesis. That's why however much they are embraced in the PCE library, most of the Arcade Card games...like Fatal Fury2, Art of Fighting, Sapphire...these should have been PC-FX games. And they should have been running on a much better PC-FX.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 04:01:46 AM by SamIAm »

Necromancer

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2014, 02:31:08 AM »
Even if the Arcade Card had never been released, those games likely wouldn't have been a part of the PC-FX library anyway.  They would've been on Super CD or not exist, as that's not the types of games NEC wanted for the FX.
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SamIAm

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2014, 02:51:54 AM »
That's also kind of the problem.

I mean, there are a few ways that NEC could have approached the PC-FX. Maybe they could have made the anime-heavy digital-comic-book/pseudo-RPG thing work if they made the hardware cheap, courted developers and put no limits on the content. But if they were going to use a conventional approach, they probably should have not only revised the hardware, but the software, too. The PCE was the first system with Street Fighter II, right? Why shouldn't its successor cash in on that fighting game heritage?

EDIT: By the way, if anyone wants to see a bunch of Japanese nerds talking about this same crap, here you go. Just beware, it ain't pretty:
http://anago.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/ghard/1397208601/
http://anago.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/ghard/1399556230/

The second thread is currently active.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 03:20:14 AM by SamIAm »

Dicer

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2014, 03:17:10 AM »
Lol, this went off the rails....still a good discussion though :)