Author Topic: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo  (Read 8144 times)

Ray

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2014, 04:42:35 AM »
On the other hand, the Arcade Card was probably not the best idea in the world. It's just that it wound up not mattering much anyway.

From what I've heard, the Arcade Cards were originally scheduled to be released in December 1993, but due to a fire in a resin plant in Taiwan and subsequent severe shortage of RAM chips worldwide it's release was delayed to March 1994 along with Fatal Fury 2.

If it was released a little earlier, it might have done better, although 4 months probably doesn't matter much. Tengai Makyou III was also originally planned for the ACD format, but that got shifted to the PC-FX.(which got cancelled later)

Bonknuts

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2014, 05:04:06 AM »
IIRC, the arcade card was in working prototype sometime in 1992. Art of Fighting was in development in early 1993 (you can find this info in the source code of Art of Fighting for the ACD) and if I read the docs right, was finished fall of 1993.

SamIAm

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2014, 05:41:38 AM »
That's pretty interesting. I still think that the Arcade Card would have threatened to damage a better thought-out PC-FX, but this is all so hypothetical anyway that it doesn't really matter.

By the way, one of the more enjoyable links I've found, again in Japanese, is a list of people talking about their five favorite PCE games, regrouped according to game:

http://www.openspc2.org/~bgm/CON/PCTL.html

Black Tiger

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2014, 05:53:07 AM »
The PC-FX isn't a direct successor to the PC Engine the same way that Sega and Nintendo consoles that followed one another. The PC-FX seems like it was strictly an NEC console, even though it contained PCE hardware. Hudson treated the Saturn as more of a successor to their PCE early on with game release anouncements. Their ACD games would not have been planned for PC-FX and the Neo Geo ports in particular were a tribute to their own hardware.

People like to think of the PCE as NEC's brand/console because they're used to things being simple and too often that Nintendo leads the way and everyone does things the same way. It's much easier to fuel console wars when the sides are narrow targets.
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SamIAm

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2014, 06:11:13 AM »
Hudson designed most of the Ironman, all of the PC-FX, and apparently all of the software development tools. They were the ones who decided to put the emphasis on streaming FMV instead of 3D rendering. Want more Japanese links? I've got one by an executive director from Hudson talking all about it.

Hudson was always in bed with other systems. I think that if their vision of the PC-FX came to fuller fruition on the sales side, they would have supported it much more. Two of the three launch titles were by Hudson.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 05:18:37 PM by SamIAm »

Ray

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2014, 07:01:24 AM »
By the way, one of the more enjoyable links I've found, again in Japanese, is a list of people talking about their five favorite PCE games, regrouped according to game:

http://www.openspc2.org/~bgm/CON/PCTL.html

I'm surprised to see Fuun Kabuki Den only get 1 vote! Tengai Makyou II crushes the competition as usual though.

imparanoic

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2014, 03:00:15 PM »
How times have changed.

The Wii U is a "failure" with over 6 million lifetime sale and counting.

The PCE was one of the biggest success stories in Japan in its day and worldwide sales were approximately 7 million.


times changed, back in the 90's, video game manufacturers were not on same scale, probably half of what Hollywood makes, now, video game industry is worth double of film industry, ie, success means a few millions units in 90's, now it's tens of millions

also , you have to consider that there were a lot more  video game manufacturers, than Nintendo, sega and nec, ie, apple pippin, fm towns,  uk obscure failures such as cd32, Amstrad gx, which only sold tens of thousands of units, this is due the level of investment was far less than nowadays billion dollar industry

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/04/19/as-video-game-sales-climb-year-over-year-violent-crime-continues-to-fall/

MrBroadway

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2014, 03:28:18 PM »
How times have changed.

The Wii U is a "failure" with over 6 million lifetime sale and counting.

The PCE was one of the biggest success stories in Japan in its day and worldwide sales were approximately 7 million.


times changed, back in the 90's, video game manufacturers were not on same scale, probably half of what Hollywood makes, now, video game industry is worth double of film industry, ie, success means a few millions units in 90's, now it's tens of millions

also , you have to consider that there were a lot more  video game manufacturers, than Nintendo, sega and nec, ie, apple pippin, fm towns,  uk obscure failures such as cd32, Amstrad gx, which only sold tens of thousands of units, this is due the level of investment was far less than nowadays billion dollar industry

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/04/19/as-video-game-sales-climb-year-over-year-violent-crime-continues-to-fall/

Right. Nintendo is hemorrhaging money due to poor Wii U sales. It costs more to make it then it did, I presume, the entirety of the PCE over its life.

SamIAm

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2014, 03:44:17 AM »
Maybe I should move this to the PC-FX forum, but whatever.

I sat down and read all of this, and it was really interesting. If you can read Japanese and want to know more about what management at Hudson and NEC were thinking in 1994 (when all of this was written), this will tell you.

http://www.geocities.jp/bgrtype/gsl/words/pc-fx/pcfx.html

You've got the executive director and the technical director from Hudson, two software developers from NEC and a couple others talking about the next generation of video games. It's quite the snapshot.

By the way, wouldn't you know it, one of them mentions that the user base for the PCE-CD system at the time is 1.8 million.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 04:03:14 AM by SamIAm »

Black Tiger

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2014, 01:08:22 PM »
Maybe I should move this to the PC-FX forum, but whatever.

I sat down and read all of this, and it was really interesting. If you can read Japanese and want to know more about what management at Hudson and NEC were thinking in 1994 (when all of this was written), this will tell you.

http://www.geocities.jp/bgrtype/gsl/words/pc-fx/pcfx.html

You've got the executive director and the technical director from Hudson, two software developers from NEC and a couple others talking about the next generation of video games. It's quite the snapshot.

By the way, wouldn't you know it, one of them mentions that the user base for the PCE-CD system at the time is 1.8 million.


Google Translate butchers that site, but judging from what the context appears to be and what you've posted previously from Japanese sources, it sounds like he was talking about the number of copies that successful PC Engine games sell around.

Similar to that quote from bitd from somebody at Enix saying how it wasn't worthwhile for them to make a new Dragon Quest game unless they were confident that it would sell 3 million copies. I believe that they were explaining why they were wasn't a Super Famicom DQ game right away and they basically said that Nintendo had to sell more consoles first.

It looked like that 1.8 million comment was putting in perspective why it was hard to get developers to take a risk with the PC-FX when a CD-ROM game could instead be developed for the still-going-strong PC Engine.
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SamIAm

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2014, 03:19:00 PM »
Sorry, but that's a completely inaccurate translation.

The line with the number is this: 問屋さんが最近、PCエンジンのソフトが売れないとか言ってますけど、ハードの数は180万は出ていますから眠ってるだけだと思うんです。

"Mr. Toiya has been saying recently that PC Engine software won't sell, but there are 1.8 million units of the hardware out there, which is why I think that it's just sleeping."

In the surrounding text, he talks about his intentions to continue to develop for the PCE. He will make games for the next generation, but he also wants to "wake up the sleeping child". After all, the hardware has finally gotten cheaper.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 03:24:01 PM by SamIAm »

A Black Falcon

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2014, 08:08:03 AM »
1.8 million in 1994, 1.9 million overall?  Wow, the system must have collapsed really badly in 1995 if that's accurate...

Necromancer

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2014, 08:24:22 AM »
The 32-bit generation started in '93, so two years later would be a 16 bitters best year evah?  No doubt sales of the Genesis took a similar nose dive, and the SNES too albeit a year or so later since they didn't yet have a new system to support.
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SamIAm

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2014, 02:54:41 PM »
Well, the 3DO came out in Japan in March '94, but that's still basically true. Though the Genesis still had some decent sales in '95, the Mega Drive in Japan pretty much fell off the radar as soon as the Saturn came out. Many Mega Drive games made in '95 tend to have been manufactured in such low quantities that they are really expensive today (ie Ristar).

One thing to note is that there is no reference to when in '94 those pieces were written. There's a big difference between early and late '94, mostly because of the cheaper RX system that came out in the summer. 120,000 systems sold in very late '94 and '95 would not be so bad in light of the total being 1.92 million, and the triumvirate of 32-bit systems that came out at the end of the '94.

This is totally unsubstantiated, but one thing that I read on a Japanese forum is that NEC didn't really get any royalties from PCE game sales. Apparently, it all went to Hudson. That makes me wonder if NEC had to price all of their systems to make a decent profit. Sure, the Duo was cheap in America, but that's maybe because they were so desperate to get a stake in the market. In Japan, it was $600, then $400, then finally $300 in '94.

I suspect that they might have sold through a lot more RX systems in '95 if they dropped the price to $200 or lower.

A Black Falcon

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Re: What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo
« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2014, 10:05:03 PM »
Sure, but given that they also had the CoreGrafx and CoreGrafx II it seems quite pointless.


Then this must seem completely ridiculous to you:








First, I wasn't the one to first mention the Shuttle, I just agreed that it didn't make much sense.

Second, and more importantly, most of those are just recolors, and even the Pikachu N64 is fully compatible with all N64 accessories.  This is, of course, not true with the PCE Shuttle, and it's got to be its biggest weakness.  A TG16 that can't attach to a CD drive and that also needs its own custom save backup unit because it's incompatible with the usual backup boosters, too?  Oh come on, that's just silly.  And counter-intuitive, when NEC's main focus shortly afterwards became selling CD units and Duos!

I have yet to find a single reliable-looking number for sales of any particular Japanese hucard, which pretty much brings my data-based analysis to a close. I'll chime in real quick on all the hubbub about add-ons and the Arcade Card, though. 

On one hand, I think that the PCE-CD expansion and the Super System Card 3.0 are both examples of add-ons that actually worked, and undoubtedly improved the fate of the system(s) they became part of. The 3.0 Card in particular seems like quite a gamble when you think about it, but everyone pulled completely on the same rope, and it all worked out. Interestingly, if you check a release list, you can see how within about 1 year of the 3.0 system coming out, a significant majority of PCE releases were SCD games.

On the other hand, the Arcade Card was probably not the best idea in the world. It's just that it wound up not mattering much anyway.

See, if NEC had had their act together, they would have released a system with a fighting chance against the Saturn and the Playstation. What they actually released - the PC-FX - was so terrible that it didn't sell as much in three years as the competition sold in literally a few days. But imagine a scenario where NEC had a viable all-around strategy. Part of that has to consist of rallying their fan-base around their next generation console. And of course, one of the most important parts of getting your fans to make that transition is gracefully winding down the previous generation system.

For both consumers and developers, the Arcade Card would have been a distraction, and it would have diverted resources away from the PC-FX and the Super CD system just like the 32X did with the Saturn and the Genesis. That's why however much they are embraced in the PCE library, most of the Arcade Card games...like Fatal Fury2, Art of Fighting, Sapphire...these should have been PC-FX games. And they should have been running on a much better PC-FX.

Yeah, I agree with just about everything you say here.  I do think that there is merit to solid game support late in a system's life, though; the SNES had great years from 1994 to 1996, and later in Japan.  Of course that system released years later, though, but still, it's in the same generation... still though, you don't want to distract people with new addons too close to the next generation, that is true.  Not wanting to distract things from the real next-gen platform is the reason why Star Fox 2 was never released, of course, even though it was finished; Nintendo decided that 3d games would be for the N64, not the SNES. 

Sega of course messed up everything for themselves with their stupid decisions, but their worst decisions were in the West, not in Japan.  It's easy enough to see that Sega faded in the mid '90s because of terrible strategy mistakes surrounding the 32X and Saturn in the West.  For NEC, though, I'm not as sure; they just didn't seem to have any momentum.  I suspect that messing up their next-gen strategy so badly really hurt them -- once the PC-FX was released and clearly no one cared, I would guess that it helped drag down the Duo as well.  I mean, even though I'm sure 4th gen sales declined for everyone, and even if that 1.8 number is from very late 1994, selling only 120,000 systems in 1995-1997 is pretty bad, considering that they'd sold almost 1.8 million from 1988 to whatever point in 1994 that article was published in. I don't think that you can explain that whole decline just with that the next generation had started.  For sales from 1996 on, sure, that'd explain it there... but 1995?  There were still many major 4th gen titles released on all platforms in 1995 in both the US and Japan.  So yeah, my guess is that the PC-FX strategy debacle may have hurt them.  Perhaps losing the Western market hurt them as well; even small Western sales of TG16/CD games were better than nothing?  Maybe those weren't enough to matter past the first years of the TG16, though.  That's sadly likely, I guess.  And need I even mention how incredibly stupid never releasing anything officially in Europe was...

As for the Arcade Card, there I'm less sure.  The Arcade Card wasn't as expensive, bulky, or annoying (three power bricks!) as the 32X, and Japan was clearly much more accepting of limited-support addons than the West was, so I'm sure the Arcade Card didn't hurt NEC like the 32X did Sega in the US.  Of course, the 32X didn't hurt Sega there as much either, though that was probably more because the Saturn was already out and people just ignored it; the Genesis hadn't sold that great after all.  Still, the Arcade Card did split the market again, and late in the generation, a time when they surely needed sales.  That's rarely a good thing unless there's a very good reason for it.  The Super System Card, yes, that was handled perfectly.  The Arcade Card?  Not so much. 

However, 4th gen consoles did need plenty of major releases in 1994 and 1995.  Even in Japan, I don't think that 5th gen hardware sales REALLY got hot until 1996-1997... by late '95 it was starting, but at least through that year there was a definite place for major 5th gen releases.  And on the SNES, there was a place for major releases all the way until 1999!  Of course the SNES crushed all other platforms in sales in Japan, so it makes sense that it'd get several more years of software support than the competition (and indeed it did), but still, NEC has to have been able to do better.  They had some good games, but some of them were Arcade Card only and thus could only sell to the limited audience that had actually bought the things, and many of Hudson's top mass-market titles in 1994-1995 were on SNES and Saturn, not TCD or PCFX -- an obvious sign of lack of confidence in their consoles.  A better next-gen strategy and platform, no Arcade Card, maybe a bit more later HuCard support (abandoning 60% of your market... even if CDs are better, I just don't know if that was the best move...)... I don't know.  But with NEC (and Hudson it seems) really attached to the idea of FMV as the basis for their next console, NEC was doomed.  There's no way to save them with the PC-FX existing, and as I said, I expect that its failure helped take down the PC Engine itself sooner too.  Maybe not (the SNES probably eventually faded in Japan simply because of its age, not because the N64 had failed so badly there...), but it's definitely possible, anyway.

But yeah, as I said, best would be a Super System Card with more RAM on it, and no Arcade Card.  Trying to get people to upgrade again in 1994 was just too late in the generation...

That's also kind of the problem.

I mean, there are a few ways that NEC could have approached the PC-FX. Maybe they could have made the anime-heavy digital-comic-book/pseudo-RPG thing work if they made the hardware cheap, courted developers and put no limits on the content. But if they were going to use a conventional approach, they probably should have not only revised the hardware, but the software, too. The PCE was the first system with Street Fighter II, right? Why shouldn't its successor cash in on that fighting game heritage?

EDIT: By the way, if anyone wants to see a bunch of Japanese nerds talking about this same crap, here you go. Just beware, it ain't pretty:
http://anago.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/ghard/1397208601/
http://anago.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/ghard/1399556230/

The second thread is currently active.

Yeah, there's so much wrong with the PC-FX that it could only be "saved" by killing it and starting over with something better, really.  If they'd gotten it out even earlier MAYBE they could have competed with the 3DO and Sega CD in the FMV-heavy-game category, but those were never as popular in Japan as they were here, so I doubt very much that that would have done much good, and they'd have died once the PS1 got popular anyway.  And even the 3DO can do some polygons.  No, they needed better, more up-to-date hardware, and a strategy to match; NEC's "we'll focus on anime otaku stuff" strategy wasn't a good one, obviously, as they learned once it failed.

How could you not understand what I meant by 'bump', especially in relation to SF2, and be part of the PCE community?  :shock: Hucard bumps are famous. People have been curious for years, what was under those bumps.


Oh yeah.  Of course. :p  I guess I was thinking that since we now do know what's under them, it's not such a big deal... and anyway, the Super System Card and Populous used the 'bump' card before SFII, so it wasn't something made just for that game.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 10:06:48 PM by A Black Falcon »