What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo

[ClodBuster]

I updated the above referenced NFGworld  post with a sales chart from the November 1993 PC Engine Fan magazine.

http://nfgworld.com/?p=1508#comment-21492

Good to see you here and thanks for updating and sharing your article. Can't wait to get my hands on your upcoming videogame sprite book.
Cheers

[Necromancer]

You should try to follow my actual argument and not make stuff up I didn't say...

Get the argument straight.  Black Tiger there said that he thinks that the PCE and CD weren't designed at the same time, and that the PCE came first and the CD later, from NEC and not Hudson.  I said that I doubt this and think that Hudson came up with the CD idea on its own, which obviously suggests that even if the PCE maybe came first, they came up with the CD addon idea early on, almost certainly before the PCE released.  I'm not the one you should be insulting here.

Those comments came after the discussion to which I was responding and don't really conflict with what I was saying anyway, seeing as the concept shown to Nintendo was surely not identical to the final design.

Well, this first depends on whether the CD system was indeed originally intended as the primary format or not.

No it doesn't.  You're under the false assumption that they intended either format to heavily dominate, when it's pretty obvious that they saw room for both.  Blow whatever smoke you want, but there's no denying that NEC and Hudson treated the CD as an important piece of the puzzle before the system even launched.

Well, when you look at the kind of stuff releasing on the Turbo CD early on, I think they didn't really know WHAT they wanted.  And this makes sense -- the CD was brand new as a videogame medium, and this massive amount of space was hard to deal with.  What do you put on the disc to take up all that space?  Nobody was really sure that generation about how to make the best use of the space.  And so you end up with cartridge games with CD audio, information discs which aren't really games, FMV-heavy games (on Sega CD particularly), music/karaoke 'games', and such.  Actual game data at the time did not need anywhere near a CD's worth of space, after all, so you couldn't fill a disc with just a game!

So music, cutscenes, and voicework aren't parts of a game?  Clearly NEC and Hudson disagreed, as does anyone with an IQ over 60.

38%?

It's simple math.  8 divided by 21 equals 0.38.

But of the 8 CD games, three are games also available on HuCards, and the other five are karaoke discs.  With the HuCard games, though, all of them are full, individual games.  It's not comparable.

Wrong again.  Darius Alpha is not a full game and wasn't even commercially available, Artist Tool isn't a game at all, and Altered Beast came out after the CD version.  Also, you can't ignore karaoke discs (or digicomics, FMV stuff, etc.) just because you don't like 'em; they may seem insignificant, but they made what they could sell.

Also, why are you ignoring the games put out by Hudson?  You can't draw conclusions of what they (NEC and Hudson) wanted from the system based solely on what NEC produced early on.  Look up the word "partnership" if necessary.

What you need to be is be consistent in each comparison!

I've already stated how I separate systems: if it's mostly just a storage medium, it's included in the main library, but if it also substantially increases the system's original capabilities, it's a separate system.  You don't have to agree with my reasoning, but I most certainly am being consistent and there is a certain logic to it.

Either include all addons, or don't.  None of this middle ground some people in this thread want where some addons count but others don't.  Go with the standard definition of an addon -- that is, some significant piece of hardware you have to buy separately from the main system that's more than just a RAM expansion [and isn't packaged with the game itself].

So only you are qualified to decide what constitutes a "significant piece of hardware" and thus deserves segregation from the rest of the library? 

FX chips are built into the carts, they aren't something sold separately as an addon.

Sure, that's one way you can do it, but don't kid yourself into thinking it's the only or even the most logical way.  I'd rather look at function than something as simple and easy to change as packaging.

So you're putting it in the same category as, say, light guns?  That might be fair, but special controllers like light guns or the Kinect could, from a certain point of view, count as "addons" too you know.  You're already trying to expand the definition of addon by including special chips in cartridges as "addons", so what's so odd about expanding it to include addon controllers as well?

The discussion has never been about the definition of "add-on", so I don't know what point you're failing to make, nor do I really care.

[esteban]

I'm sure he felt that way, but can we think of a few exceptions?

Do you mean developers who didn't feel that way, or games that contradicted that? I don't have any other developer quotes on hand. As for successful CD games that didn't have beautiful women in them...that's a good question. Especially if you're talking about games after 1992.

Sorry, I should clarified: I meant examples of games.

I have been looking at the trend in games (as presented in these old PCE mags) and concur with NFGman...things quickly became "scantily clad women"-centric

[A Black Falcon]

Those comments came after the discussion to which I was responding and don't really conflict with what I was saying anyway, seeing as the concept shown to Nintendo was surely not identical to the final design.

Uh, they don't?  But he said that he thought NEC came up with the CD system after Hudson made the base system, and you're saying you think the CD and HuCard systems are intrinsically linked... how are those compatible?  I'd think it has to be one or the other.

No it doesn't.  You're under the false assumption that they intended either format to heavily dominate, when it's pretty obvious that they saw room for both.  Blow whatever smoke you want, but there's no denying that NEC and Hudson treated the CD as an important piece of the puzzle before the system even launched.

That's possible, but by no means definite.  I'm sure they hoped the CD system would eventually be important, but their focus on HuCard games for the system's early years shows that they didn't think it was an immediate thing, for sure.  At first they put most of their efforts into HuCard games, and lesser attention on CDs. 

Then came the SNES and their focus changed to the CD system first, because that was something Nintendo did not have.  NEC gradually lost that fight, as the sales numbers that have been found in this thread show -- I mean, ~1.5 million CD systems sold by 1992 out of ~1.9 million total sold is pretty clear, the SNES won.  But if they'd stuck with HuCards first as before, maybe the system would have faded out even sooner?  Or at least, that's what NEC seems to have thought would happen.  Maybe they're right, maybe not, it's hard to say.

But going back, I'm sure that Hudson and NEC found the CD system very interesting, and hoped that it'd take off, but saying that from the beginning they were intending on it being equal in importance to the HuCard system is saying something that we have no evidence for, simply because you want it to be true.

So music, cutscenes, and voicework aren't parts of a game?  Clearly NEC and Hudson disagreed, as does anyone with an IQ over 60.

They're not gameplay.  Everyone know that.  Unless it's an FMV game, or a digital encyclopedia which has nothing BUT that kind of thing, that stuff isn't gameplay!  Everyone knows that actual game programming does not include things like music, graphics, and cutscenes, and it doesn't take up a CDs worth of data for sure either.  And nor did ingame graphics, for most games of the era.  Cutscene and voice work is what filled discs.  Those things can add to a game, but again, unless it's an FMV game, they're not gameplay -- and the Turbo CD, unlike the Sega CD, isn't loaded with FMV games, though stuff like digital comics is pretty close to that kind of thing, for sure.

It's simple math.  8 divided by 21 equals 0.38.

Why 21?  I count 25 releases by NEC Avenue in '88-'90 (17 HuCard, 8 CD)... maybe that's off, but that difference isn't important.  It would be nice to get it precise, but the point is the contrast between that and how different it is from even just the next year -- in '91 in Japan NEC published 6 CD games and 2 HuCards, and that is the last time they published more than one HuCard game in a year.   In the US things were different, but NEC US's HuCard titles weren't released in Japan, of course.

Wrong again.  Darius Alpha is not a full game and wasn't even commercially available, Artist Tool isn't a game at all, and Altered Beast came out after the CD version.

Such a minor quibble... come on.  Anyway, yeah, Altered Beast and Darius Plus released later on HuCard than CD, that is true, but I'm sure they planned from the start to release those games on both formats.  I know the two versions are somewhat different, but they are variants of the same basic game.  Oh, and I wasn't counting Artist Tool above, but I guess it probably should count as a release, sure.

Also, you can't ignore karaoke discs (or digicomics, FMV stuff, etc.) just because you don't like 'em; they may seem insignificant, but they made what they could sell.

I'm sure they do, and they do count as games, but five volumes of karaoke?  That's like the four Make My Video volumes on Sega CD... no new ideas between them, just different videos and stuff.   It makes sense that they'd exist, though, and that's fine,... but even a Make My Video thing is more of a game than karaoke!  Do those even have a scoring system, or are they just basically a CD+G burned to a TCD disc?

Also, why are you ignoring the games put out by Hudson?  You can't draw conclusions of what they (NEC and Hudson) wanted from the system based solely on what NEC produced early on.  Look up the word "partnership" if necessary.

Remember the whole thing about how Hudson and NEC were so similar that they couldn't be separated, etc?  Well, I showed how they could be separated, and focused on NEC because they're the one actually making the systems, and because their early library probably doesn't get as much attention as Hudson's does.  People probably mostly know what Hudson made.

I've already stated how I separate systems: if it's mostly just a storage medium, it's included in the main library, but if it also substantially increases the system's original capabilities, it's a separate system.  You don't have to agree with my reasoning, but I most certainly am being consistent and there is a certain logic to it.

There really isn't, though.  I mean, yes, the Sega CD has scaling and rotation hardware in it for instance, but many games make no use of that stuff and basically don't do anything more than a Turbo CD game would, except with more RAM than anything but the Arcade Card of course.  Do those count differently to you than games that make use of the hardware?  There's essentially no way to actually be completely consistent with your system, I think.  The normal one makes more sense.

And come on, the idea that a different storage medium isn't a major and very significant change is nonsense.

So only you are qualified to decide what constitutes a "significant piece of hardware" and thus deserves segregation from the rest of the library? 

You're being ridiculous!  I am merely agreeing with the standard definition of what an addon is.  You know, the same definition that every website on the internet that separates games by platform uses to determine whether a game is for a console or its addon?  The same one used by game companies themselves, when they put different markings on their games depending on whether they are for the main system or one of its addons?

I hope at least you can admit that you're rewriting the definition of addon here and replacing the normal one with one of your own.  And as such, you're the one who has to prove your case for why the standard system is wrong; this quote here where you somehow try to claim that I'm the one who came up with it is really absurd, you know that that's not the case.

Sure, that's one way you can do it, but don't kid yourself into thinking it's the only or even the most logical way.  I'd rather look at function than something as simple and easy to change as packaging.

As I said above, then you're rewriting the definition of what an addon is, disagreeing with every authoritative source, and basically just making up a system which conveniently is biased in favor of NEC.  Hmm.

I like the Turbo CD for sure, but it's an addon, not the same thing as a TG16!

The discussion has never been about the definition of "add-on", so I don't know what point you're failing to make, nor do I really care.

I have no idea what you're talking about here, because the entire argument is about what the definition of an addon is.

[Necromancer]

Uh, they don't?  But he said that he thought NEC came up with the CD system after Hudson made the base system, and you're saying you think the CD and HuCard systems are intrinsically linked... how are those compatible?  I'd think it has to be one or the other.

Can't you read?!?

As I said, it doesn't conflict because the cart based system Hudson proposed to Nintendo wasn't the final design of the PCE; it's not a coincidence that the PCE uses NEC parts, that the expansion connector is loaded to the gills, or that its size and appearance matches the CD drive - all three are evidence of NEC's hand in its design.  Also, we're talking about what the NEC / Hudson partnership wanted from the system, so it doesn't matter one iota what Hudson themselves wanted before the partnership even formed.

That's possible, but by no means definite.  I'm sure they hoped the CD system would eventually be important, but their focus on HuCard games for the system's early years shows that they didn't think it was an immediate thing, for sure.  At first they put most of their efforts into HuCard games, and lesser attention on CDs...... But going back, I'm sure that Hudson and NEC found the CD system very interesting, and hoped that it'd take off, but saying that from the beginning they were intending on it being equal in importance to the HuCard system is saying something that we have no evidence for, simply because you want it to be true.

I didn't say equal in importance, I said it was important period; and just because the CD didn't get 50% of the game releases early on doesn't mean it was unimportant.  Try to reign in your stupid.

They're not gameplay.  Everyone know that.  Unless it's an FMV game, or a digital encyclopedia which has nothing BUT that kind of thing, that stuff isn't gameplay!

You said game data not game play.  Trying to change your argument after the fact won't make you look less retarded.

In any case, cutscenes, music, and voicework most definitely are part of a game.  Look at Ys Book I and II and try to say with a straight face that it wouldn't be any less of a game without 'em.

Why 21?  I count 25 releases by NEC Avenue in '88-'90 (17 HuCard, 8 CD).

Because you specifically said to look at the '89 and '90 releases, I didn't include games from '88.  I also left off GnG, but I guess in your little world the SGX isn't a separate system.

Such a minor quibble... come on.

Indeed, but the only way to refute your minor quibble reasons for saying those CD titles don't count is with more minor quibbles.

I'm sure they do, and they do count as games, but five volumes of karaoke?  That's like the four Make My Video volumes on Sega CD... no new ideas between them, just different videos and stuff.   It makes sense that they'd exist, though, and that's fine,... but even a Make My Video thing is more of a game than karaoke!  Do those even have a scoring system, or are they just basically a CD+G burned to a TCD disc?

Who gives a shit?  The point is that the CD wasn't ignored and in fact it received a significant portion of the releases early on (during your revised '88-'90 timeline, they're still 1/3 of NEC's releases).  Not that it matters.  Even if NEC never releases a single CD title, it wouldn't prove they didn't care about the format.

Remember the whole thing about how Hudson and NEC were so similar that they couldn't be separated, etc?  Well, I showed how they could be separated, and focused on NEC because they're the one actually making the systems, and because their early library probably doesn't get as much attention as Hudson's does.  People probably mostly know what Hudson made.

Color me unsurprised that you didn't bother to look up partnership.  Anything to "prove" your point, eh?

There really isn't, though.  I mean, yes, the Sega CD has scaling and rotation hardware in it for instance, but many games make no use of that stuff and basically don't do anything more than a Turbo CD game would, except with more RAM than anything but the Arcade Card of course.  Do those count differently to you than games that make use of the hardware?  There's essentially no way to actually be completely consistent with your system, I think.  The normal one makes more sense.

True, some games might not use all the capabilities available, but I'm differentiating based on hardware capabilities not what each specific game did or didn't do.  Outside of redbook tunes, every single game in the PCE library could be done on HuCard (ignoring the exorbitant cost of such large carts); the same can be said of games on FDS, 64DD, etc., but it is untrue for the Sega CD, 32x, etc. 

You're being ridiculous!  I am merely agreeing with the standard definition of what an addon is.

But you're not.  Stuff like the Arcade Card is unequivocally an add-on, yet you don't count it as one.

I hope at least you can admit that you're rewriting the definition of addon here and replacing the normal one with one of your own.

Not once have I claimed the PCE-CD was not an add-on, nor am I redefining the word.  The only thing I'd argue that goes against many people's idea of an add-on is that stuff like the FX chip qualifies.  Not that wikipedia is infallible, but here's their definition of add-on:

Add-ons, also known as peripherals, are devices generally sold separately from the console, but which connect to the main unit to add significant new functionality. This may include devices which upgrade the hardware of a console to allow it to play more resource-intensive games, devices which allow consoles to play games on a different media format, or devices which fully change the function of a console from a game playing device to something else.

The FX chip was sold separate from the system, connected to the console, and provided substantially more processing power, so how does it not qualify as an add-on?  I see no disclaimer in the definition that says "unless the device can only be used by the game it is contained within".

As I said above, then you're rewriting the definition of what an addon is, disagreeing with every authoritative source, and basically just making up a system which conveniently is biased in favor of NEC.  Hmm.

You mean my game library separations are biased.  Fear not, I'm similarly biased towards the FDS, 64DD, Satellaview, MSX cassette thingys, etc. 

I have no idea what you're talking about here, because the entire argument is about what the definition of an addon is.

You're confused.  The discussion is about whether or not the CDs and HuCards should be kept separate.

[Bonknuts]

 You'll never convince A Black Falcon that hucards and CD games should be counted as a single library of games for the PC-Engine. Ever. All this arguing, over this one little fact. He concedes to nothing (I've seen his arguments across different forums). But anyway, I ~think~ it forms from the simple fact that he grew up with the SNES. Anyone who has grown up with the PCE/TG and CD unit, counts all those games as belonging PC-Engine/TG library. It's no different than having games on cassette, floppy, and cart for small home computers. CoCo, Commodore, Atari, MSX, etc. The CD unit is a storage/medium addon. It is not a SegaCD. It is not a 32x. Hell, even PC games - they had requirements such as newer processors and newer graphics modes, that older PCs couldn't handle without those upgrades.. and yet they're all still called 'PC games' and all part of that same category/library. You had older DOS games, and you had newer DOS games... but you called, labeled, and lumped them together as DOS games. The same could even be said for Amiga games (the required ram upgrades and wouldn't run on stock systems).


Those that didn't grow up with the PCE/TG and CD unit, have a hard time grouping them. Even on the Sega forums, because the mentality is that the SegaCD is capable of soo much more and attached to the CD format (this is the key) - that somehow the PCECD is the exact same way (because it's also CD). Quite a few people thought the Duo had extra hardware (even processors!), that made CD games impossible on the hucard format. I remember having quite a few arguments over this. Even Arcade Card games. E-s-p-e-c-i-a-l-l-y Arcade Card games. Sega-16 is a pretty big place, and draws people from other gaming circles. People have a hard time dealing with the fact that the CD unit, and even Arcade Card, really don't extended anything to the core system processing wise or graphics wise. That there's no way a hucard could ever do what a ACD game, let alone a CD game, can do. That it couldn't just be as a simple as the evolution of games on the system, and/or the limits of storage earlier hucard games, and hucards never got the chance to reach such heights.

 The idea that FX, SA-1 (that's a whole new god damn 16bit processor), and other chips in the carts - are somehow less of an upgrade than the CD system.. is ridiculous. Those SNES games can not run with those processor resource upgrades (and graphics too). Because they are included in the cart, it somehow makes them irrelevant? So if I shoe horned a PS1 into a snes cart, it's still just a snes game? Right.

 Anyway, this is ridiculous that we even have to have this argument of whether it's correct or not, to include hucards and CD games into a single PCE library. Dammit people, add some grey into your world; nothing everything needs to be strictly black and white. While you're at it, add some color too.

[ClodBuster]

I regard software, for that I would have to get a hardware add-on, separate from the rest of the system's native software.

Watering down that border in favour of the Duo and similar combo systems (E.g. Multimega, Twin Famicom): If we would go that way, then we would have to count in backwards compatible consoles like the GBA, DS, PS2 and several others as well. That makes no sense.

[Bonknuts]

I regard software, for that I would have to get a hardware add-on, separate from the rest of the system's native software.

 So if you had a C64, but then later purchased a disk drive, then you wouldn't count the c64 disk games and tape cassette games, and cart games.. as simply c64 games?

Watering down that border in favour of the Duo and similar combo systems (E.g. Multimega, Twin Famicom): If we would go that way, then we would have to count in backwards compatible consoles like the GBA, DS, PS2 and several others as well. That makes no sense.

 In what relation does the Duo have, to backwards compatibility of the GBA, DS, PS2, etc??? The GBA is a completely new system architecture, with the ability to play previous system's capability. That, is not what the Duo is.

 The Duo is not a whole new system, and the hucards some old previous system. It's not even a half new system. It's EVEN a quarter new system, for whatever that means. The SuperGrafx, is a new system - with backwards compatibility (although that would be a 'quarter system' or eighth system, or whatever stupid terminology). The Duo is a PC-Engine, through and through.

 If you're old enough to have used small home computers back in the day, then whole cassette and floppy drive thing/analogy should make perfect sense. Or better yet, when you upgraded your PC with a CD drive.

[A Black Falcon]

You'll never convince A Black Falcon that hucards and CD games should be counted as a single library of games for the PC-Engine. Ever. All this arguing, over this one little fact. He concedes to nothing (I've seen his arguments across different forums). But anyway, I ~think~ it forms from the simple fact that he grew up with the SNES. Anyone who has grown up with the PCE/TG and CD unit, counts all those games as belonging PC-Engine/TG library. It's no different than having games on cassette, floppy, and cart for small home computers. CoCo, Commodore, Atari, MSX, etc. The CD unit is a storage/medium addon. It is not a SegaCD. It is not a 32x. Hell, even PC games - they had requirements such as newer processors and newer graphics modes, that older PCs couldn't handle without those upgrades.. and yet they're all still called 'PC games' and all part of that same category/library. You had older DOS games, and you had newer DOS games... but you called, labeled, and lumped them together as DOS games. The same could even be said for Amiga games (the required ram upgrades and wouldn't run on stock systems).


Those that didn't grow up with the PCE/TG and CD unit, have a hard time grouping them. Even on the Sega forums, because the mentality is that the SegaCD is capable of soo much more and attached to the CD format (this is the key) - that somehow the PCECD is the exact same way (because it's also CD). Quite a few people thought the Duo had extra hardware (even processors!), that made CD games impossible on the hucard format. I remember having quite a few arguments over this. Even Arcade Card games. E-s-p-e-c-i-a-l-l-y Arcade Card games. Sega-16 is a pretty big place, and draws people from other gaming circles. People have a hard time dealing with the fact that the CD unit, and even Arcade Card, really don't extended anything to the core system processing wise or graphics wise. That there's no way a hucard could ever do what a ACD game, let alone a CD game, can do. That it couldn't just be as a simple as the evolution of games on the system, and/or the limits of storage earlier hucard games, and hucards never got the chance to reach such heights.

Actually I grew up as a PC gamer.  The only consoles I owned before 1999 were the Game Boy and Game Boy Color; PC gaming is what I mostly did in the '90s.  Yeah, I liked Nintendo the most, but I didn't actually have their system... actually I knew more people with the Genesis back then, so I played that more than I did the SNES.  But I mostly played PC and GB/GBC games that decade, until I finally got myself an N64 in fall '99.  My classic game collection is more recent; I started buying older systems when I got a SNES in '05, and now have lots and lots of stuff.  (For the other 4th gen systems, I got a Genesis and Sega CD in '06, a TG16 in '09, 32X in '10, and Turbo CD... well, I got the drive later in '09, but didn't actually get it repaired and working until last year, so '13 really I guess; before that I played TCD games emulated on my PC (I did a lot of this).  But I've used the base unit for saving and A/V output since getting it, even though the CD drive didn't work.)  But yeah, you're right that in the computer world you do not categorize things like you do on consoles.  I'd say that that just shows how different computers and consoles are, though... consoles are a different kind of thing from PCs, much more focused on one specific thing, so they get categorized differently.

So yes,  consoles and computers are different things.  Computers are ever-changing, so people don't use the term "addon" with a computer because they're never the same, they're always being "added on to".  With consoles, though, each system stays mostly static, so when you DO have a major change, people notice and marketing and packaging differences make it clear that it's a different system.  You know, you know it's a different (addon) system because it says "32X" on the case instead of "Genesis".  Stuff with the addon built in to the game, like a Super FX game, are not marked differently and don't count the same way.  They are enhancements yes, but not addon consoles; more below.

With every single other console ever (other than the TG16/CD), it's accepted by everyone that addons and consoles are different.  You may want to count the system plus addons combined too, but you'd never count them all just as one library, at least not without mentioning which were designed for each.  Dual-mode games are an issue here, but I'll get into that one below; the rest of the time though, this is consistently followed.

The idea that the TG16 is different just doesn't hold up at all; it isn't different.  Seriously, this idea that just because the Turbo CD has less addon hardware with the drive it doesn't count is completely silly.  The Turbo CD has additional RAM, save backup memory, controller chips for the CD drive, and most importantly that CD drive itself, which allows for things impossible otherwise.  It's a far larger change from the base system than, say, the Famicom Disk System is from the NES; all the FDS really adds is an audio channel, onboard save memory, and load times.  NES/FC carts can hold more space, can have onboard batteries for saving, and FC games can have addon chips to make up the audio difference too.  There's nothing a FDS game can do that a NES game can't apart from maybe the amount of save memory, but that's a minor difference.  Or how about the Satellaview?  It's just downloadable SNES games with a cable-line voice audio stream.  Or the Jaguar CD?  Just a CD drive on the Jaguar.  Satellaview games are often wrongly included in with the SNES library, for some odd reason, but otherwise they are all properly separated out.  I'm sorry, but no, this argument that somehow the hardware in the drive determines whether it's a "true" addon or not is not one I can accept. It makes absolutely no sense, as I've explained; the CD drive alone is a huge, huge change overall!  Yes, so is the Super FX, but the Super FX could never be described as a console like full addons can be (more on this below).

Getting back to dual-mode games, though, yeah, the SuperGrafx is of course separate from the TG16; I should have reduced that 1988-1990 NEC number by one to account for that.  It is a little tricky because there are those SGX-enhanced PCE games (Darius Plus and Alpha), and whenever you have dual-mode titles you have a tendency for people to merge the systems into one -- you see this with the Game Boy and Game Boy Color, for example, and also with the Neo-Geo Pocket and Neo-Geo Pocket Color and the Nintendo DS and Nintendo DSi as well.  In all three cases I think that the systems should be counted separately and NOT be combined as they often are, but because of stuff like dual-mode games that work in the older system but are enhanced in the newer one, corporate marketing that didn't always entirely separate the new system from the older one (such as how Nintendo always reported GB+GBC sales numbers combined, and never separated out as they should be), and such, people wrongly combine them.  The same goes for the SuperGrafx.  This is an issue I often find quite frustrating; myself I break GB and GBC games into three categories for example, one for GB games, one for dual-mode titles, and one for GBC-only games.

The idea that FX, SA-1 (that's a whole new god damn 16bit processor), and other chips in the carts - are somehow less of an upgrade than the CD system.. is ridiculous. Those SNES games can not run with those processor resource upgrades (and graphics too). Because they are included in the cart, it somehow makes them irrelevant? So if I shoe horned a PS1 into a snes cart, it's still just a snes game? Right.

Seriously you people.  It's not hard: The standard definition that the world uses for console addons is that it's a full console addon if it uses separate media of some kind.  If you still use the original system's disc drive or cartridge slot, it's not a full addon, just an enhancement of some kind, such as the Super FX chip.

And this does make sense! Remember, a console is not just a thing which plays games.  It is a piece of hardware with multiple, interchangeable games that it can play.  A standalone system which can only play games that are built in to the system and not anything else is not, strictly speaking, a video game console.  So, when looking at which console expansions count as potential consoles of their own, naturally it is only the addons which change the format that are counted.  If the games still connect to the original systems' media port, then people don't count them as games for a full addon since they're still playing on the base system.  As a result of this go to any site which lists games online -- GameFAQs, Wikipedia, IGN, whatever -- and you'll see that addons sold as full systems, like a Sega CD or Turbo CD, count as addons, while RAM expansions and the like do not.  The one plays on different media, while the other doesn't, so it's not a fully separate thing, just an enhancement to the main system.  Those are both kinds of "addons", but they are DIFFERENT kinds of addons, and for classification purposes only the former are called true addons.  This all should be fairly obvious though...

Anyway, this is ridiculous that we even have to have this argument of whether it's correct or not, to include hucards and CD games into a single PCE library. Dammit people, add some grey into your world; nothing everything needs to be strictly black and white. While you're at it, add some color too.

Getting classifications correct is important though!  It's definitely something I care about. Obviously. :p

[Black Tiger]

You'll never convince A Black Falcon that hucards and CD games should be counted as a single library of games for the PC-Engine. Ever. All this arguing, over this one little fact. He concedes to nothing (I've seen his arguments across different forums). But anyway, I ~think~ it forms from the simple fact that he grew up with the SNES. Anyone who has grown up with the PCE/TG and CD unit, counts all those games as belonging PC-Engine/TG library. It's no different than having games on cassette, floppy, and cart for small home computers. CoCo, Commodore, Atari, MSX, etc. The CD unit is a storage/medium addon. It is not a SegaCD. It is not a 32x. Hell, even PC games - they had requirements such as newer processors and newer graphics modes, that older PCs couldn't handle without those upgrades.. and yet they're all still called 'PC games' and all part of that same category/library. You had older DOS games, and you had newer DOS games... but you called, labeled, and lumped them together as DOS games. The same could even be said for Amiga games (the required ram upgrades and wouldn't run on stock systems).


Those that didn't grow up with the PCE/TG and CD unit, have a hard time grouping them. Even on the Sega forums, because the mentality is that the SegaCD is capable of soo much more and attached to the CD format (this is the key) - that somehow the PCECD is the exact same way (because it's also CD). Quite a few people thought the Duo had extra hardware (even processors!), that made CD games impossible on the hucard format. I remember having quite a few arguments over this. Even Arcade Card games. E-s-p-e-c-i-a-l-l-y Arcade Card games. Sega-16 is a pretty big place, and draws people from other gaming circles. People have a hard time dealing with the fact that the CD unit, and even Arcade Card, really don't extended anything to the core system processing wise or graphics wise. That there's no way a hucard could ever do what a ACD game, let alone a CD game, can do. That it couldn't just be as a simple as the evolution of games on the system, and/or the limits of storage earlier hucard games, and hucards never got the chance to reach such heights.

 The idea that FX, SA-1 (that's a whole new god damn 16bit processor), and other chips in the carts - are somehow less of an upgrade than the CD system.. is ridiculous. Those SNES games can not run with those processor resource upgrades (and graphics too). Because they are included in the cart, it somehow makes them irrelevant? So if I shoe horned a PS1 into a snes cart, it's still just a snes game? Right.

 Anyway, this is ridiculous that we even have to have this argument of whether it's correct or not, to include hucards and CD games into a single PCE library. Dammit people, add some grey into your world; nothing everything needs to be strictly black and white. While you're at it, add some color too.

He has said a few times in the past that the N64 was his first console (of course CD games don't count!).

He's rewriting the rules for consoles that are as old as he is.

[A Black Falcon]

You'll never convince A Black Falcon that hucards and CD games should be counted as a single library of games for the PC-Engine. Ever. All this arguing, over this one little fact. He concedes to nothing (I've seen his arguments across different forums). But anyway, I ~think~ it forms from the simple fact that he grew up with the SNES. Anyone who has grown up with the PCE/TG and CD unit, counts all those games as belonging PC-Engine/TG library. It's no different than having games on cassette, floppy, and cart for small home computers. CoCo, Commodore, Atari, MSX, etc. The CD unit is a storage/medium addon. It is not a SegaCD. It is not a 32x. Hell, even PC games - they had requirements such as newer processors and newer graphics modes, that older PCs couldn't handle without those upgrades.. and yet they're all still called 'PC games' and all part of that same category/library. You had older DOS games, and you had newer DOS games... but you called, labeled, and lumped them together as DOS games. The same could even be said for Amiga games (the required ram upgrades and wouldn't run on stock systems).


Those that didn't grow up with the PCE/TG and CD unit, have a hard time grouping them. Even on the Sega forums, because the mentality is that the SegaCD is capable of soo much more and attached to the CD format (this is the key) - that somehow the PCECD is the exact same way (because it's also CD). Quite a few people thought the Duo had extra hardware (even processors!), that made CD games impossible on the hucard format. I remember having quite a few arguments over this. Even Arcade Card games. E-s-p-e-c-i-a-l-l-y Arcade Card games. Sega-16 is a pretty big place, and draws people from other gaming circles. People have a hard time dealing with the fact that the CD unit, and even Arcade Card, really don't extended anything to the core system processing wise or graphics wise. That there's no way a hucard could ever do what a ACD game, let alone a CD game, can do. That it couldn't just be as a simple as the evolution of games on the system, and/or the limits of storage earlier hucard games, and hucards never got the chance to reach such heights.

 The idea that FX, SA-1 (that's a whole new god damn 16bit processor), and other chips in the carts - are somehow less of an upgrade than the CD system.. is ridiculous. Those SNES games can not run with those processor resource upgrades (and graphics too). Because they are included in the cart, it somehow makes them irrelevant? So if I shoe horned a PS1 into a snes cart, it's still just a snes game? Right.

 Anyway, this is ridiculous that we even have to have this argument of whether it's correct or not, to include hucards and CD games into a single PCE library. Dammit people, add some grey into your world; nothing everything needs to be strictly black and white. While you're at it, add some color too.

He has said a few times in the past that the N64 was his first console (of course CD games don't count!).

Read my post above maybe?  The original Game Boy was my first console, and the PC my first gaming platform.  I had both of those many years before I bought an N64.  It's not my fault my parents refused to ever buy me a TV console!

He's rewriting the rules for consoles that are as old as he is.

... Consoles as old as I am? Hmm... well, that'd be the Colecovision then.  Launched in August '82, same month I was born.  And I guess I do redefine the rules for the Colecovision, given that I believe the standard definition that "the consoles of 1982 are 2nd gen, just like the 2600 and other systems released five years earlier" is ridiculous and actually those systems (Colecovision, 5200, etc.) are actually early 3rd gen, systems, in the same gen as the Famicom/NES and not the O2 and 2600... so you're right, though entirely unintentionally I am sure!

[Punch]

This thread is shameful.

[Bardoly]

Disclaimer:  I have not read up enough on video game console hardware to call myself an expert by any means.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I understand that ALL of the PC Engine CD games, Super CD games, and Acade card games COULD have been made as HuCARDs and played on the base Core Grafx if the HuCARD chips had simply been large enough.  Is this correct?  (Yes, I know that the theoretical HuCARDS would have been much bulkier, maybe even sticking out from the sytem, and would have needed RAM chips (like many SNES games) to be able to play most Super CD games and all Arcade cards games.)  The difference between the HuCARD format and the CD format (not counting the extra RAM for Super CD/Arcade, which COULD have been put into the HuCARDS) is simple the way that the data is stored.  As was referenced above in regards to computer games, I can remember a time when computer games could be purchase in multiple different formats - 5" floppy disk, 3 1/2" disk, CD, etc...  Even many games today can still be purchased as physical media or as digital download media.  Now, I do understand that computers are continually changing, but it seems to me that all of the PC Engine games are actually PC Engine games  :-"  , just with 2 different storage mediums.  I mean, if a video game console today has 2 different storage mediums, say for example, physical disks, or digital downloads (like the Wii virtual store, are they all considered Wii games?  Or if Playstation had regular-sized CD disc games, small-sized disc games (like Gamecube or PSP), and/or DVD disc games, would they all be considered Playstation games?   

[Bonknuts]

Getting classifications correct is important though!  It's definitely something I care about. Obviously.

 And there in lies your problem. Again, you're conforming the PC-Engine into definition that doesn't accurately describe it, and its library. It's ok to make an exception to the rule; exceptions exist for a reason. Not everything in life can be neatly categorized and factored to a difference. And the PC-Engine and its CD software, have some unique exceptions to add to such a scenario. I and a few others have already listed as to why.

 But you play this semantics game, and when one person corrects or counters you, you side step and bring that point back around to something else to make the point or analogy look invalid. Sometimes, I think you don't even understand the point you're dismissing/deflecting. You're just in automatic dismiss mode. You do make some valid points, but you don't concede or recognize ANY one else's valid points. And I don't mean just here on these forums, either. You're too rigid man. Too rigid.   

[esteban]

CONSENSUS: I'm glad we finally agreed that CD and HuCARD media belong in the same core PCE library.