What were the life time sales for the PCE/PCEDuo

[esteban]

FIRST (CLEARING THE AIR): Falcon, I will only judge you by how you post here (since that is the extent of my direct knowledge). So far, I am enjoying this discussion and I can see both sides of the debate. I agree that personal attacks only clutter up an argument.

 



HONEST QUESTION TO EVERYONE: how would you classify LaserActive and LD-ROM and PCE?

[Necromancer]

As has been thoroughly explained, things like expansion chips in cartridges are not addons.  That's what I meant there -- only counting addons which fully fit the definition, not things you people claim are addons but aren't.

Those quotes were about memory upgrades, not helper chips.  Learn to read!

I just think it's cute how you continue to act like memory upgrades are something other than an add-on, even though one of 'em (the N64 Expansion Pak) is listed in your wikipedia 'proof' of what constitutes an add-on.

[esteban]

Falcon, I am curious...

HERE WE GO: if God gave us HuCARD-only-PCE in 1987, and then, DUO in 1992, how would you classify things?

ASIDE: Did you see what I did there?

Presuming that the internal hardware was the same, then it'd be in the same place as the SuperGrafx, Sega Master System, Atari 7800, or Atari XE -- a second console in the same generation as their previous one, and compatible with the previous system, much like the SuperGrafx, or how the Japanese Master System/Mark III is backwards compatible with Sega's first 3rd gen system, the SG-1000.

I know you are being pulled in 100 different directions (sorry! I'm making this thread even more convoluted), but I don't agree with your reasoning above...

...given the premise of my "alternate universe", the DUO is not a new platform or console. I understand your desire to categorize it that way, and I know you are frustrated because PCE/DUO does not neatly fit into the sterile, simplistic classification systems we have constructed...but PCE/DUO truly is a unique beast.

In fact, our thread is very instructive on how misunderstood the PCE is. And, even more importantly, it reveals how our classification/labeling systems may appear reasonable, but horribly fail to represent the essential truth of the very thing we are trying to understand (in this case, video game consoles).




TO EVERYONE: For the sake of everyone's sanity, you are required to play an hour of PCE (that includes CD-ROM games, but not LD-ROM games, in case you were wondering) BEFORE POSTING in this thread.

[TheClash603]

Is the Laseractive an add-on of both the PC-Engine and the Mega Drive?

Or are the PC-Engine and Mega Drive PACs add-ons of the Laseractive?

If the PACs are add-ons, then I believe that makes the PC-Engine and Mega Drive both  add-ons and consoles.  How trippy is that?

[esteban]

Totally trippy.... 

[Black Tiger]

The N64 ram pak upgrades the base hardware.

Most SNES on-cart addons are cpu upgrades.

The PCE CD-ROM, when not part of a single Duo unit, is an alternate delivery method. Another software format, like Sega My Cards, Satellaview games, Famicom Disk games, 64DD games, etc. None of these upgrade the base console hardware. Some are capable of running additional audio along side the console hardware, but the software is no different than the regular console's cart-based software, aside from any additional audio that might play on the side. This why you saw the same games running on both software formats.

The System 3.0 and Arcade Card only upgrade the delivery method of the software format. It is really more of a handicap reducer though, as CD format games were bottlenecked in the "short term" (small bits at a time) as much as carts were in the long term (everything at once, but smaller overall). It again, did not affect the base hardware, unlike SNES accelerator chips.

[SamIAm]

I understand why the PCE/CD system is all one system and one library from a software developer's perspective, from a hardware designer's perspective, and even from a certain historian's perspective. But from a user's perspective, no way. Can you play a CD game on a base system? No? Then it's a different library. It's really that simple for me, especially when the required expansion hardware is so expensive.

I think of the Famicom Disk System as an add-on with a separate library as well, but the line blurs (without disappearing) just because it became so redundant - its initial advantages in storage were overcome by cartridges, and some FDS games were re-released on cartridges with zero changes. That would NEVER happen with a PCE-CD game. At the very least, the audio would have to be downgraded, and as a practical matter it's very likely that HuCard-ized versions of many games would have had actual game data trimmed.

That is one thing I have to say I'm a little surprised at you guys for claiming. I thought Redbook audio was supposed to be a big deal when this thing came out? Be honest - would Ys Book 1&2 have been as magical without the redbook? If we're still talking 1989, you can kiss the intro and other cutscenes goodbye, too.

Without any extra processors, the PCE-CD may not be a perfect analogue of the Sega CD, but it's still pretty close. The massive storage, by itself, is a really big deal.

[Bonknuts]

I understand why it's all one system and one library from a software developer's perspective, from a hardware designer's perspective, and even from a certain historian's perspective. But from a user's perspective, no way. Can you play a CD game on a base system? No? Then it's a different library. It's really that simple for me. Especially when the required hardware is so expensive.

 And those that had a Duo, that could play both CD and hucard games. It's one library to them. And there is lies the problem. It's not like the Duo came out at the end of the systems life (unless you follow the opinion that the release of the Duo, is the end of the PC-Engine's life - because the Duo is a completely new system), it came out before half way. Again, it's all a matter of perspective.

 

That is one thing I have to say I'm a little surprised at you guys for claiming. I thought Redbook audio was supposed to be a big deal when this thing came out? Be honest - would Ys Book 1&2 have been as magical without the redbook?

Claiming..? The CD format was for storage first and foremost, Red book is a base free upgrade for it. If anything, it's the streaming ADPCM that's the upgrade. The mass storage makes it perfect for packing in lots of compressed audio streams (one of the reason for mass storage; speech). Some early CD games used chiptunes instead of Red Book. Some later CD games used chiptunes for the cinemas too. And even some late gen games used chiptunes instead of Red Book. But yeah, Red Book is great. It creates a better atmosphere. Ys is better for it. But Xanadu I and II are just as awesome with chiptunes IMO.

 If the CD unit never came out, as I've already said, there would have been audio upgrades in the hucards themselves. Or optional audio addon, like the mark III or MSX stuffs.

Also, insults instead of making actual points?

Huh???

 A Black Falcon: Yes, a definition can change. Or rather, a description of what constitutes something. And since when it anything set in stone!?!? "The CD format is an addon, because it started as an addon - and nothing will every change that. Not even the Duo". Seriously???

 1988, the CD unit is an addon. 1992 - there is only the Duo (technically 1991 in Japan). The Duo doesn't add or connect to anything. The Duo runs the same CD games as the CD addon does. The Duo is not a 'new' system, because it doesn't play any 'new' games, etc. It plays the same CD and hucard games. Duo =/= SGX, in ANY way, shape, form, etc. You know what? f*ck it. f*ck this merry-go-round with you.

Me: PCE consists of CD and hucard games:
@loop
ABF: No. CD was an addon and you can't count that.
Me: But CD unit became the new format
ABF: The cd unit upgrades the hardware
Me: No really. And special chips in snes games, do much more that CD unit as far as upgrading
ABF: Doesn't matter, because the gamer doesn't have to buy an addon to play them
Me: Ok, so it's about purchasing an addon then, the Duo replaced all addons and is the main system.
ABF: The Duo doesn't count because it's a new system, like the SGX.
:insert some other random crap, then branch to :loop

 If you're gonna break the PCE library because of the CD format, DON'T BE HALF ASS ABOUT. Go all the way with it, buddy. If CD and hucards are not the same library, then CD 1.0, CD 2.0, CD 3.0 and ACD are NOT the same library. You cannot play any of those CD game WITHOUT purchasing an upgrade card. Period. If you're gonna argue and stick with semantics, be thorough about it.

 Reply to this if you want, I won't. See ya.

[SamIAm]

And those that had a Duo, that could play both CD and hucard games. It's one library to them. And there is lies the problem. It's not like the Duo came out at the end of the systems life (unless you follow the opinion that the release of the Duo, is the end of the PC-Engine's life - because the Duo is a completely new system), it came out before half way. Again, it's all a matter of perspective.

Ehhh, maybe my perspective is off because I had a JVC X'EYE first, but the Duo to me is a combo system just like that. It's two systems together. A base and an expansion as one for the sake of convenience and economics. It's really hard for me to think of it as an all-out re-birth of the PCE.

The Duo makes up half of the CD system owner base. On one hand, that's a lot, but on the other, it clearly didn't start a revolution. Of the 5.8 million worldwide sales, only about 1 million are Duos. The bulk of the sales happened before the Duo ever appeared, too.

Claiming..? The CD format was for storage first and foremost, Red book is a base free upgrade for it. If anything, it's the streaming ADPCM that's the upgrade. The mass storage makes it perfect for packing in lots of compressed audio streams (one of the reason for mass storage; speech). Some early CD games used chiptunes instead of Red Book. Some later CD games used chiptunes for the cinemas too. And even some late gen games used chiptunes instead of Red Book. But yeah, Red Book is great. It creates a better atmosphere. Ys is better for it. But Xanadu I and II are just as awesome with chiptunes IMO.

 If the CD unit never came out, as I've already said, there would have been audio upgrades in the hucards themselves. Or optional audio addon, like the mark III or MSX stuffs.

That's all fine and good, but what I'm trying to say is that the difference in storage alone is so huge, and so expensive, that it doesn't matter if there aren't any extra processors in the PCE-CD. The difference to the user is still enormous.

There were 5.8 million PCE/TG-16 owners, and about 2 million CD system owners among them. Ask the 3.8 million people who only ever had the Hucard systems whether they thought the CD library was their Hucard library's long-lost Siamese twin. They may or may not have understood what's under the hood of these systems, but I guarantee that Hucard-only owners back in the day saw the CD library as a separate, if related, family.

EDIT: You posted this a while back:

And the main reason why gamers separate these addons as different game library, is that the addon hardware enhances the games to the point that they aren't representative of the original system's capability.

This might be at the heart of our disagreement, because I don't see things this way at all. I think it's a separate library because you had to shell out hundreds of dollars for a separate doohickey to play the games. Even if Sonic CD didn't have those special stages with a mode-7-y floor, it would still seem to me to be a non-Genesis game because I can't play it on my Genesis. Put the game on a cartridge, stick in a chip that makes that effect, and charge roughly the same amount as any other cart game, though, and it will sure look like a Genesis game to me.

-------

In the end, I think the PCE and the CD system and the system cards are all pretty unique, and we all have our own perspective. In another universe, where the TG-16 was more popular than the Genesis, maybe there would be Sega CD fans arguing that the Sega CD library deserves not to be lumped in the with Genesis. In our universe, though, I think that a PCE fan's perspective in 2014, after 20 years of owning the base and the add-on, is biased simply because the two libraries just look so much better together.

I feel like what I really learned from this discussion is that the PCE and its CD system are so different from the Mega Drive and the SFC that it's not possible to directly compare them in some ways.

By the way, let's finish Spriggan Mark 2 already. Does that stage four text insert properly on your end?

[A Black Falcon]

And those that had a Duo, that could play both CD and hucard games. It's one library to them. And there is lies the problem. It's not like the Duo came out at the end of the systems life (unless you follow the opinion that the release of the Duo, is the end of the PC-Engine's life - because the Duo is a completely new system), it came out before half way. Again, it's all a matter of perspective.

[...]

 A Black Falcon: Yes, a definition can change. Or rather, a description of what constitutes something. And since when it anything set in stone!?!? "The CD format is an addon, because it started as an addon - and nothing will every change that. Not even the Duo". Seriously???

Yes.  You cannot redefine what type of system a console is mid-generation.  How it is is set from the start.  Period.  I think I've mentioned the X'eye, CDX, and Twin Famicom enough times that maybe this point should be getting across by now.

1988, the CD unit is an addon. 1992 - there is only the Duo (technically 1991 in Japan). The Duo doesn't add or connect to anything. The Duo runs the same CD games as the CD addon does. The Duo is not a 'new' system, because it doesn't play any 'new' games, etc. It plays the same CD and hucard games. Duo =/= SGX, in ANY way, shape, form, etc.

I said that the Duo would be like the Supergrafx if there had been no stand-alone CD drive released!  Of course WITH a standalone CD drive, as exists, it's not like the Supergrafx.  But if the Duo had been the only way to play CD games, then it would be.

Claiming..? The CD format was for storage first and foremost, Red book is a base free upgrade for it. If anything, it's the streaming ADPCM that's the upgrade. The mass storage makes it perfect for packing in lots of compressed audio streams (one of the reason for mass storage; speech). Some early CD games used chiptunes instead of Red Book. Some later CD games used chiptunes for the cinemas too. And even some late gen games used chiptunes instead of Red Book. But yeah, Red Book is great. It creates a better atmosphere. Ys is better for it. But Xanadu I and II are just as awesome with chiptunes IMO.

 If the CD unit never came out, as I've already said, there would have been audio upgrades in the hucards themselves. Or optional audio addon, like the mark III or MSX stuffs.

Maybe so, but are there pins in the HuCards for audio enhancements?  And anyway, that's purely speculation, and enhanced cart/card audio won't get you lots of voice acting, for sure.  I like chiptunes a lot, games don't need CD audio, and cartridge games are just as good as CD games, for sure.  However, the interesting types of music you find in Turbo CD and Sega CD is pretty cool and I like it a lot.  As for voice-acted cutscenes, well, it helps with understanding games that are in Japanese for sure, versus just text... :p

That's all fine and good, but what I'm trying to say is that the difference in storage alone is so huge, and so expensive, that it doesn't matter if there aren't any extra processors in the PCE-CD.

There are 5.8 million PCE/TG-16 owners, and about 2 million CD system owners among them. Ask the 3.8 million people who only ever had the Hucard systems whether they think the CD library is their Hucard library's long-lost Siamese twin. They may or may not understand what's under the hood of these systems, but I guarantee that Hucard-only owners see the CD library as a separate, if related, family

I've tried to make this point several times now, only to be completely ignored.  I guess only the 1 million Duo owners count as true Turbografx/PC Engine owners, and the rest are irrelevant or something...

I know you are being pulled in 100 different directions (sorry! I'm making this thread even more convoluted), but I don't agree with your reasoning above...

...given the premise of my "alternate universe", the DUO is not a new platform or console. I understand your desire to categorize it that way, and I know you are frustrated because PCE/DUO does not neatly fit into the sterile, simplistic classification systems we have constructed...but PCE/DUO truly is a unique beast.

I don't know what you are talking about...  If there was no standalone CD drive, but instead  the Duo was the only way to get a CD drive, it'd be a new system.  Where the Supergrafx made a new system with another processor and the like, the Duo would with a CD drive and more RAM.

In fact, our thread is very instructive on how misunderstood the PCE is. And, even more importantly, it reveals how our classification/labeling systems may appear reasonable, but horribly fail to represent the essential truth of the very thing we are trying to understand (in this case, video game consoles)

Not really. I agree that it's more about some people here wanting to redefine things in order to make the TG16 look better, since clearly you need to include the CD library to keep the system competitive in comparison to the other systems of the generation.  Of course it is true that the TCD is more successful than other addons, and that half of CD systems sold are combo systems is DEFINITELY unique, but having a higher rate of combo system adaptation doesn't change that it is an addon at its core.  If a majority of Sega CDs sold had been CDXes and X'eyes and the like, the system would still be an addon too.  The ratio of addons to expansions doesn't change the systems' classification.

The N64 ram pak upgrades the base hardware.

Most SNES on-cart addons are cpu upgrades.

The PCE CD-ROM, when not part of a single Duo unit, is an alternate delivery method. Another software format, like Sega My Cards, Satellaview games, Famicom Disk games, 64DD games, etc. None of these upgrade the base console hardware. Some are capable of running additional audio along side the console hardware, but the software is no different than the regular console's cart-based software, aside from any additional audio that might play on the side. This why you saw the same games running on both software formats.

The System 3.0 and Arcade Card only upgrade the delivery method of the software format. It is really more of a handicap reducer though, as CD format games were bottlenecked in the "short term" (small bits at a time) as much as carts were in the long term (everything at once, but smaller overall). It again, did not affect the base hardware, unlike SNES accelerator chips.

This idea you have that somehow space enhancement systems don't really count as addons, while chips that increase processing power do, isn't backed up by anything other than your opinion, you know.  That's not how addons vs. enhancement chips are classified.  How invisible is it to the user?  Does the game go in the original system or the addon?  What did the company sell the device as?  These questions matter.  Whether it's a storage space enhancement or a system power/memory enhancement, though, doesn't as much, except in that most people, and companies, don't really count pure system memory/video enhancements as addons even though they kind of are -- as I was saying a while ago about the RAM packs, etc.  That point is a question worth discussing, I think.  The rest are correctly classified by standard definitions.  Your focus on "does it increase system power" first is not the primary factor used to determine what an addon is.

[spenoza]

I think the PC Engine and add-ons is unique in the console world, but not totally unique. I think it actually follows the home computer model. You create a base system. Later you add a CD-ROM drive that adds redbook audio and ups the storage space. Later in the system's life it got RAM upgrades via the Super System and Arcade cards.

I actually do think that the CD-ROM attachment is a lot like the FDS unit for the Famicom, which also took inspiration from the home computer market. The FDS changed the storage medium which provided the advantage of easy save capabilities, and Nintendo bundled in a couple FM audio channels as well. Only in the Nintendo example the FDS was dropped before the base system's life cycle was complete.

Yes, the HuCard slot does include a mono audio channel, I believe.

Say, does anyone know when manufacturing and distribution of the various PCE Core systems ended? Was it before the Duo was finished?

[shubibiman]

Bonknuts, don't waste your time debating with this Black Idiot.

Your time deserves being spent on dev

[ClodBuster]

Didn't read much of the last posts, especially when it comes to cases where two or more people just insult each other.

Guys, be proud of what the PCE can do. You don't need to prove that to the world constantly, and you don't have to fear comparisons with rivaling systems of back in the day, since these days are long gone anyway.

As far as I can remember, the whole addon argument started with comparing sales figures to the SNES/Satellaview and Mega Drive/MegaCD/32X* library.

I think pretty much everything what can be said about that has been said yet. Apart from some interesting posts inbetween, the last pages of this discussion consists of boring repeats and trolling for the lulz.

*please excuse me for being European, lol.

[esteban]

Black Falcon: I confused myself in my prior post. Ha! I started conflating the real-world with my silly premise. Sorry. I don't even know what to think anymore.

STATUS: I think that SamIAm has clearly stated the most persuasive argument—the ***user's*** perspective cannot be ignored. Since the TG-16/PCE was HuCARD-only, I can't help but agree that these folks would be justified in calling CD-ROM an add-on. There is a very real SPLIT in games available.

Of course, folks with a DUO are justified in seeing one inclusive library.

The PCE+IFU+CD-ROM helped blur the lines about what the true PCE experience (was/is)...


THAT SAID, it doesn't mean that we ignore the developer/hardware/technical "under-the-hood" perspective entirely.

Somehow, we might be able to balance the two perspectives. Or, at the very least, we should identify each perspective when we discuss things...

[esteban]

Black Falcon: I confused myself in my prior post. Ha! I started conflating the real-world with my silly premise. Sorry. I don't even know what to think anymore.

STATUS: I think that SamIAm has clearly stated the most persuasive argument—the ***user's*** perspective cannot be ignored. Since the TG-16/PCE was HuCARD-only, I can't help but agree that these folks would be justified in calling CD-ROM an add-on. There is a very real SPLIT in games available.

Of course, folks with a DUO are justified in seeing one inclusive library.

The PCE+IFU+CD-ROM helped blur the lines about what the true PCE experience (was/is)...


THAT SAID, it doesn't mean that we ignore the developer/hardware/technical "under-the-hood" perspective entirely.

Somehow, we might be able to balance the two perspectives. Or, at the very least, we should identify each perspective when we discuss things...