Why did the SuperGrafx fail so miserably?

[TheOldMan]

nor were they limited in size to 8mb or even 20mb.

8Mb is the complete address space for the address lines on a HuCard, iirc. To go larger requires a custom mapper or some kind, which is how 20Mb was reached.

The practical limit is 8Mb, without extra (ie, expensive) hardware.  Even so, acessing memory above 8Mb is probably slower, and requires extra steps.

Technically, HuCards could be made any size. You would have to add extra hardware to the card to access it, though.  Which would drive up the cost of the card.

Limited by cost is the same....

Agreed.

[Necromancer]

Of course mappers are needed for larger sizes, but who gives a shit?  The NES had mappers galore and the SNES used all sorts of chips that were often a hell of a lot more sophisticated and expensive than a mapper.  Big deal.  It's not like a mapper cost $50.

Bigger rom sizes obviously cost more to manufacture, but that's hardly a trait specific to hueys; far more costly than the rom chips themselves was creating the content to fill 'em.  And CDs were way cheaper to make (even back then), but the cost of a banana was even lower and just as relevant.

[reson8er]

I guess the part that bothers me the most is that NEC failed to continue its success in any meaningful way.  SG wasn't the answer anyone wanted, and game makers just moved on. What a sad ending to a great legacy. 

[Necromancer]

That sounds like the PC-FX.  The SGX was just a road bump along the PCE's journey, with many of its best games coming long after the SGX was just a memory.

[Punch]

There is something unsettling about the SFII mapper though... the programmers had to program under two (or more?) layers of bank switching, ouch. Just like the Arcade Card I can't imagine myself programming a game successufully under that setup without confusing myself.

[touko]

You're making a bunch of false assumptions.  Hueys weren't exponentially more expensive to manufacture, nor were they limited in size to 8mb or even 20mb.

It's just an opinion, for a descent use of SGX hardware, you need space storage and IMO hucard was not appropriate.
Do you think than a game like sapphire (exept for redbook audio),could have been done on hucard ??
 ;-) .
However this game is entirely done by PCE hardware, and need only the scd+AC space storage .

This prove that hucard is a limiting factor .
 

8Mb is the complete address space for the address lines on a HuCard, iirc. To go larger requires a custom mapper or some kind, which is how 20Mb was reached.

The practical limit is 8Mb, without extra (ie, expensive) hardware.  Even so, acessing memory above 8Mb is probably slower, and requires extra steps.

Technically, HuCards could be made any size. You would have to add extra hardware to the card to access it, though.  Which would drive up the cost of the card.

i agree .

[reson8er]

That sounds like the PC-FX.  The SGX was just a road bump along the PCE's journey, with many of its best games coming long after the SGX was just a memory.

I thought the PCFX was aimed at a different market that the PCE? So the SG was not intended as a successor but actually as an alternative or variation of the PCE?

[TheOldMan]

..the programmers had to program under two (or more?) layers of bank switching,

-IF- the mapper was general purpose, and had been used for more than SFII, there would have been a library and documents on how to use it. Probably wouldn't have been any worse than setting aside blocks of memory for specific things, and making a function call.  No worse than the original setup, and probably easier.

The NES had mappers galore and the SNES used all sorts of chips that were often a hell of a lot more sophisticated and expensive than a mapper.  Big deal.  It's not like a mapper cost $50.

Nope, the mappers were probably $1-$2 (in batches of 100,000).  But where do you put it on a HuCard? Circuit real-estate is very limited. And using a 'bump' to add the extra circuitry makes failure rates go way up, I think.
Especially if you squeeze the bump to insert/remove the card NEC would have had to eat a lot of returns, I'll bet...

 (We had a similar problem with the ABCard - the chip would pop a connection if you bent the card wrong. And we were using soldered connections - not the NEC pressure-welded wire setup. )

The whole memory discussion just reminds me of the original IBMS: "Who's ever going to need more than 640K?"

[Keith Courage]

One reason could be a lot of what we are seeing now with new gen consoles. People feel content with what they already have and are not buying the new xbox 1 or ps4. Because of this many new games are still being released for the Xbox 360 and ps3 because they want their game to be able to sell to the biggest market.

So maybe developers didn't want to make games for the super grafx only since hardly anyone owned one at the time.

[touko]

Nope, the mappers were probably $1-$2 (in batches of 100,000).  But where do you put it on a HuCard?

Of course, you'r right ..

[Necromancer]

It's just an opinion, for a descent use of SGX hardware, you need space storage and IMO hucard was not appropriate.

Then you must mean cartridges aren't appropriate for 16 bit games at all, as the majority of SNES and Genny games are SFII' sized or smaller.  I agree that CDs are the better option for virtually unlimited space and dirt cheap manufacturing, but that's at the cost of load times and limited ram, very limited ram considering there was no Super CD (let alone Arcade Card) available at the time.

Do you think than a game like sapphire (exept for redbook audio),could have been done on hucard ??

It's technically possible but not fiscally viable.  On a huey it'd be cut down just like every single SNES/Genny shewty, and I can't think of a single one of those that even cracked 16 meg.

This prove that hucard is a limiting factor .

Yeah, just like Bush had "proof" of weapons of mass destruction. 

But where do you put it on a HuCard? Circuit real-estate is very limited.  And using a 'bump' to add the extra circuitry makes failure rates go way up, I think.  Especially if you squeeze the bump to insert/remove the card NEC would have had to eat a lot of returns, I'll bet...

You know there's almost nothing under the bump, right?  Using a SFII layout, there's enough to match almost any SNES or Genny game in rom size.

[touko]

Then you must mean cartridges aren't appropriate for 16 bit games at all, as the majority of SNES and Genny games are SFII' sized or smaller.  I agree that CDs are the better option for virtually unlimited space and dirt cheap manufacturing, but that's at the cost of load times and limited ram, very limited ram considering there was no Super CD (let alone Arcade Card) available at the time.

Of course, but you can did a better use of snes or MD hardware with 16Mb cartridges or up to 48 Mb than a single 20MB on pce .
It's obvious than hucard is not sized for big sizes .
The pce is powerfull to manipulate graphics datas, sapphire prove it, and you cannot use this power with hucards which are limited to 8Mb,and diffcult to extend ..

It's technically possible but not fiscally viable.  On a huey it'd be cut down just like every single SNES/Genny shewty, and I can't think of a single one of those that even cracked 16 meg.

Yes technicaly all is possible, but i'am pretty sure than it's pretty hard for hucard format, because is slim, and i think it needs a special mapper not very easy to use .

Yeah, just like Bush had "proof" of weapons of mass destruction. 

Ahahah, of course, it was a joke ;-)
But you can not deny that the more graphicaly advanced games are not on hucard, and if there is only one 20 Mb hucard, there is a reason .
And why 20 Mb, and not 24 like for genesis version ??

[Black Tiger]

I thought that non-mapper limits for SFC and MD were 32 and 40 megs?

SFII'CE that was completed and almost released for MD was 20 megs. The SFII'CE + SFII Turbo compilation with bonus artwork, extra bonus stage, etc, that the MD and SFC actually received is 24 megs each. SFII World Warrior for SFC is 16 megs. It all makes perfect sense.

I've been meaning to comment on this thread properly, but haven't had the time. Biggest point I wanted to make is that only HuCard can unleash the full potential of the SuperGrafx. CD games are bottlenecked. A 6 stage CD game that doesn't load bosses separately would be <3 megs on HuCard. A port like Darius Plus was already as arcade perfect as can be on PCE. All the SuperGrafx could add was eliminating flicker.

[Necromancer]

... and you cannot use this power with hucards which are limited to 8Mb,and diffcult to extend .... Yes technicaly all is possible, but i'am pretty sure than it's pretty hard for hucard format, because is slim, and i think it needs a special mapper not very easy to use .

Well, you're wrong.  Devs had been using mappers (and even more sophisticated cart chips) for years in the NES, 2600, etc., so they obviously weren't a hindrance to those with dev kits, funding, etc.

But you can not deny that the more graphicaly advanced games are not on hucard, and if there is only one 20 Mb hucard, there is a reason.

Yes, but that reason has absolutely nothing to do with it being too hard or too expensive to make bigger hueys, at least not by the time such large games were relatively common.  Early on it was a road block (R-Type), but that problem was quickly solved.  Keep in mind that early SNES and Genny games were all under 16Mb; their first 16Mb games didn't come out until mid-'92, at which time HuCARD development of any size was essentially dead.

And please don't argue that everyone switched from HuCARDs to CDs because big hueys were "too hard", as they obviously switched to CDs because they were far cheaper to produce regardless of size (many games made post '92 could easy fit in an 8Mb cart) and likely had smaller minimum order sizes.  Had the CD add-on not been as successful (causing poor sales of CD games vs. HuCARDs), more devs would've stuck with the format and we would've seen more 16Mb+ sized carts.

And why 20 Mb, and not 24 like for genesis version ??

Who knows?  The SNES version is also 20Mb and its cart obviously wasn't limited to that size.

[seieienbu]

As long as we're talking theoretical potential, why worry about the Super CD's memory when you could have Supergrafx Arcade CDs?  A full 16Mb with additional sprite and background layers?  I think that sounds pretty sick.