Game capture and the variable frame rate abyss. Any video experts here?

[mackdanger]

Let me start by saying that when it comes to computers, I am a hardware / networking guy. I am new to video capture and editing, but I am starting to put things together. Here is the deal. I capture footage  from my Framemeister at 720p 60fps. I use 720p because the Meister's 1080p settings don't do the scan lines properly. 60fps may seem like overkill for old systems, but I like to get the highest quality I can manage, since I can always re-encode the source at a lower quality later if I need to.

I originally started learning how to use Lightworks, since the free version does exactly what I need. However, I noticed that when I opened my clips in Lightworks, the audio would de-sync after the first couple of minutes and get worse as the clip played. After some research, I discovered that my clips are variable frame rate and Lightworks can only handle constant frame rate clips. I think Adobe also has problems with them as well. I used recommended programs like Eye Frame and Handbrake to  convert them to constant frame rate, but no matter what settings and formats I used, the resulting file would be full of skips and judders when I tried to edit them in Lightworks. They would play fine on their own though.

I then decided to download a Sony Vegas trial and give it a spin since Vegas can handle variable frame rate clips. By handle I mean when you render the video, Vegas will automatically lower the frame rate and make it constant. In my case, my source clips ended up at 29.97fps if I remember correctly.

I don't know if it is even possible, but is there software or a particular encoding format that can capture a constant not variable 60fps? If not, what formats / settings would you recommend to maintain the best quality, especially for uploading to Youtube? Lastly, does anyone have a favorite editor that they recommend? Thank you for your time and guidance.

[Bonknuts]

Since you mention HD, then this probably won't apply - but if it was for a retro console that outputs 240p, then you use the old 720x480i capture trick. It captures at 29.97fps, but then you separate the fields into frames with double the frame rate.

 If you capture setup is dropping frames, then it might be a bandwidth and/or latency issue (usb). It would help if you posted your hardware specs (pc and capture device).

[SuperDeadite]

I just use AmaRec and the lagarith encoder.  Both are free.

[mackdanger]

Thanks for the replies. The variable frame rate I am referring to, doesn't seem to be a result of cpu performance hits or anything like that. The raw recorded clip plays back just fine. From what I have gathered so far, VFR is a byproduct of how the software you are using records, encodes, and compresses the file. If you go to any gaming forum where they are talking about recording, you will probably see people bitching about it. They are complaining about it since most professional editors only like constant frame rate. I am going to check out the stuff SuperDeadite linked and see what's up. I am really just messing around at this point, experimenting with different recording and encoding methods, checking out various editors and whatnot. Just trying to learn more about this stuff.

***Edit***

Okay, after doing a bunch of research and checking various places, I have a better grasp of what is going on. Variable Frame Rate is a feature incorporated into a lot of capture hardware and software, that is used to help keep the file sizes down. Running Media Info on some of my clips show a max frame rate of 60 and a minimum of 40. The way VFR works, it automatically lowers the frame rate when there is little to no activity on the screen. So say, when a loading screen or something comes up, VFR lowers the frame rate to keep the file size small. Which isn't a bad feature except like I said above, they don't work with a lot of the higher end professional editors. And the ones they do work with, like Vegas, will take the clip and smash it down to 30 to make it constant frame rate. So just keep that in mind if you want to start using the likes of Adobe Premier to edit your game footage.

[ProfessorProfessorson]

I always used a Gainward Golden Sample Geforce 4 with composite and s-video in and Wincoder, and used Sony Vegas to edit the clips to upload to youtube. I tried not to over think it too much, and just stuck with 480P uploads. I still have a few left that I did on my current youtube account:

We are talking pretty old equipment here, but it got the job done and the results were fine. The key thing to keep in mind was that whatever you uploaded to youtube back then, youtube would knock down the quality some also. Not sure how it is like now since I have not captured any gameplay in a long while and uploaded it on there.

[SignOfZeta]

I agree with the Professor. You're trying to mail a package to China via the moon. The problems that you are having are a direct result of diddling with the video way way too much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mackdanger]

The problems that you are having are a direct result of diddling with the video way way too much.

The problem I am having is a result of how my software records footage, and the resulting file not being completely compatible with a professional video editor. At this point I don't really have any intentions of doing much with my YT channel, I am mostly just experimenting. However, one of the things I really want to mess around with and get to know better is a pro level editor, which is why I need compatible clips. Since I don't have a video camera, game clips are it.

Professor, thanks for your input. Since I am capturing from my XRGB-mini, my options are limited, but I think I found a solution last night.

[ProfessorProfessorson]

The problems that you are having are a direct result of diddling with the video way way too much.

The problem I am having is a result of how my software records footage, and the resulting file not being completely compatible with a professional video editor. At this point I don't really have any intentions of doing much with my YT channel, I am mostly just experimenting. However, one of the things I really want to mess around with and get to know better is a pro level editor, which is why I need compatible clips. Since I don't have a video camera, game clips are it.

Professor, thanks for your input. Since I am capturing from my XRGB-mini, my options are limited, but I think I found a solution last night.

What game systems are you trying to record, or are you trying to record Jamma boards? And what signals are you running from them to the XRGB, svideo, composite, or normal RGB, and what capture card are you using?

[mackdanger]

I am recording PC Engine, Neo Geo MVS (consolized), and Mega Drive mostly, all in RGB. The capture card I am using is the Live Gamer HD, which only does variable frame rate. The software is also kind of crappy, so don't get it. What I am going to do for now is re-encode the 60fps variable frame rate clips as 30fps constant frame rate clips in Vegas. That will allow me to continue my learning and comparison experiments without any audio troubles. Later, when I want to start doing 60fps comparisons, I will have to use something that outputs constant frame rate, which I think I have found.

[ProfessorProfessorson]

I am recording PC Engine, Neo Geo MVS (consolized), and Mega Drive mostly, all in RGB. The capture card I am using is the Live Gamer HD, which only does variable frame rate. The software is also kind of crappy, so don't get it. What I am going to do for now is re-encode the 60fps variable frame rate clips as 30fps constant frame rate clips in Vegas. That will allow me to continue my learning and comparison experiments without any audio troubles. Later, when I want to start doing 60fps comparisons, I will have to use something that outputs constant frame rate, which I think I have found.

Ahh ok. Yeah that right there would probably not be for me anyway. Your normal 240P signal is basically being processed twice, once by the XRGB, then again by the Live Gamer HD. I guess you do what you got to do and all, but if it was me I would just invest in something to convert RGB to Component without all the complicated upscaling, then get a normal high quality capture card that is fine with that Component signal. I do have to mention though, seems like my friend Eric had issues capping some Jamma stuff off the Jrok component encoder. I'd have to ask him specifically what it was though.

Is the goal personal use, work related, or youtube related? Honestly if its mainly youtube related, the picture quality you are trying to achieve is not going to resemble the original hardware as much after all the upscaling and video processing, plus you are going to be exposed to more lag while you try to capture your gameplay. At that rate you'd probably be just as well off recording directly off game emulators.

If you want the image to resemble more of how it would have appeared originally, then you are going to need to keep it a bit more basic then what you are doing now, which tends to be preferred by classic gamers who watch gameplay on youtube.

This evening I went ahead and did a basic 1 hr build for capping and did a small sample clip, just for this thread. Pentium 4 3ghz HT system with AGP Gainward Golden Sample Geforce FX 5900 with VIVO and a Soundblaster Live for recording the audio. Software used for capping was a version of Wincoder from 2002, set to the "DVD quality" setting, at 720x480, with brightness knocked up a tad and color knocked down some to get it to where it should about be (I probably need to adjust this a tad more, but I am feeling lazy at the moment). Game system used was a Snes Mini via s-video.

The recorded gameplay clips were then copied over to a USB stick and transferred to my main PC for Sony Vegas 10 so they could be combined into one large clip. Render setting used was Windows Media Video V11 @ 6 Mbps HD 720-30p Video. The only major draw back to this is that the output videos the Gainward will make with Wincoder will have some pixelation depending on what is being displayed and how fast it is moving, and also sometimes some image blur.

Basically it is perfectly fine for general consumption on Youtube. If I started doing videos again I can guarantee you no one would be complaining about the quality for general gameplay videos. If I was going to sit there and try to do a video like GameSack, with me babbling, mumbling to myself, and drooling off and on in the video, then I would probably just swap over to recording emulation so that the image quality would better match what ever retarded 720P recording of myself I had made to attach to the gameplay.

Outside of the above mentioned issues, my only real concern is Youtube knocking down the quality of the video I have uploaded, which they seem to still do. It may be related to the file format used possibly. Viewing over what I uploaded tonight, I see they still do this during their video processing. But I cant really complain, its their bandwidth, not mine.

Here is the final video file after going through Vegas:

And here is two of the clips before they were ran through Vegas:

Jikkyo Oshaberi Parodius
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDq-x70Bm3w&feature=youtu.be

Super Metroid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-egFkCBlhek&feature=youtu.be



EDIT: Asked Eric what cap card he uses. Its the ImpactVCB. This one does not give him issues like the prior one did with Jamma related games.

http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_impactvcb.html

Keep in mind it is s-video and composite only though.

[Jibbajaba]

I just use a DVD recorder to record my gameplay, and then rip the DVD on my computer.  It would be nice to be able to capture video directly on my computer, but I have a laptop so a capture card is not an option, and I have yet to find a USB capture device that I think does a good job with some of the whackadoo video signals that I need to record.  I have one of those shitty Hauppauge HD-PVR units and it absolutely refuses to play nice with my NES.  The DVD recording has never given me any trouble whatsoever, looks decent, and gives me a physical copy of the footage so that I am not stockpiling shit on my hard drive.

Edit: I have a Micomsoft XAV-2s which converts RGB to s-video, which is what goes in to the DVD recorder.  This is useful for systems of mine which do not have s-video as an option, like my CMVS, supergun, and Duo.

[mackdanger]

Thank you for all of the information and examples. There is something I feel I may need to clarify though. Most of the popular game capture hardware and software out there, produce clips with variable frame rate. That doesn't mean they are producing low or bad quality clips. The clips actually look pretty good from what my untrained eyes can tell. The chief problem with VFR clips is that when used with high end video editors, they have a bunch of audio-desync problems. Vegas is the exception. Vegas will handle VFR clips with no problems, but upon export, will lower the fps until it can be made constant. My VFR clips fluctuate between 40fps and 59.97fps, so Vegas lowers them to 29.97fps and makes them constant.

One thing I have noticed with the test clips I uploaded to YouTube, is that the brightness always seems to increase. A black title screen will look gray and sometimes noisy. I will upload some test clips later and report back.

Again, at this point I am just learning and experimenting. I want to see what different codecs, resolutions, bitrates, and methods will produce. If anyone wants a handy program that can tell you a lot of useful info about your clips, check out Media Info: https://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo

The default basic view doesn't show much. So go up to "View" and click "Text." That will give you the good stuff.

***Edit***

Here are a couple of test clips to take a look at. Be sure to watch them in HD. This one was converted from variable frame rate 60fps to constant frame rate 30fps.

The second one is completely raw, uploaded straight to YT without any editing or processing. This one is MP4/AAC 720p, but this time I left it at variable frame rate 60fps.

Do you notice how in both cases, it looks kind of washed out, and the black title screen looks gray? Since the source clips don't look that way, am I correct in assuming that is a byproduct of YT processing?

[ProfessorProfessorson]

Honestly both clips you posted look good to me. I have seen worse end results. By chance have you tried Virtual Dub? If not you could try it with the Lagarith codec. My friend Eric talked me into trying it tonight and it worked pretty good for me. Way better then Wincoder does, though the file size for the clips was huge due to the raw data, so it was a bit of a pain for me to transfer them over to my main pc.

Keep in mind, this was capped off S-video, not RGB:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm15yzAw4gA&feature=youtu.be

[mackdanger]

That was a good clip. I will check out Virtual Dub and see what is what. Thanks for the advice. One thing I forgot to mention, is that I only really started paying attention to You Tube last year. As a result, I think I am just not used to the way You Tube processing makes videos look. I see a minor deviation from the source and it practically jumps out of the screen.

[ProfessorProfessorson]

Yeah. I need to screw around with the deinterlacing options in VDub and see if I can find a solid setting. As is I just let Vegas do that task to the video files instead on the clip I posted above. The files VDub made are a tad sharper prior to being handled by Vegas though. I suspect it is due to Vegas deinterlacing it, so maybe that issue can be eliminated via VDub settings.