Author Topic: That Tobias f--k went after Xak III and SO II as pressed CD-ROM releases!  (Read 37024 times)

elmer

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I really enjoyed your Turbo Duo box set, as I do not wish to have to take out a bank loan to own and enjoy even just ONE of these four games, and seeing how the only alternative was to burn some CD-Rs and hope for the best, I was very willing to buy your product.

Damn 'jak, that's a good e-mail.  I was thinking of e-mailing him myself, but you spoke much more eloquently than I could have. 

I have absolutely no problem with his bootlegs nor with the price he charges.

Sometimes I just shake my head and die a little inside when I see pure self-interested moral indignation like that.

To paraphrase that argument ...
Quote
Dear Tobias, I'm more than happy to buy the TV that you stole from the guy 2 streets over, it was such a good price and I don't know him. But damn you to hell for stealing my neighbor's TV, I would never, ever buy that from you, you dirty thief!


Jibbajaba

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Meh.  I had a whole response typed out, but to be honest I think it's just going to piss everyone off, RoyVegas style. 

Arjak

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I really enjoyed your Turbo Duo box set, as I do not wish to have to take out a bank loan to own and enjoy even just ONE of these four games, and seeing how the only alternative was to burn some CD-Rs and hope for the best, I was very willing to buy your product.

To paraphrase that argument ...
Quote
Dear Tobias, I'm more than happy to buy the TV that you stole from the guy 2 streets over, it was such a good price and I don't know him. But damn you to hell for stealing my neighbor's TV, I would never, ever buy that from you, you dirty thief!

 :-k

 #-o

 ](*,)

I cannot argue with the logic of your accusation, because you are absolutely 100% correct to call me out on this...

*Sigh*

I suppose this is the part where I'm supposed to make excuses and/or try to tear you down by pointing out your own failings in order to draw attention away from myself and how you made me look like a complete hypocritical jackass...

Uh...Um...

I plead Temporary Insanity! The eBay resellers! They MADE me do it! :lol:

In all seriousness, though, you are absolutely right to call me out on the carpet here. Stealing from NEC/Hudson Soft should be no different from stealing from someone like Nightwolve or SamIAm. For some illogical reason, it just felt different. More personal.

I humbly apologize for my folly. :oops:
He who dings the Gunhed must PAAAAY!!! -Ninja Spirit

ProfessorProfessorson

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Sometimes I just shake my head and die a little inside when I see pure self-interested moral indignation like that.

To paraphrase that argument ...
Quote
Dear Tobias, I'm more than happy to buy the TV that you stole from the guy 2 streets over, it was such a good price and I don't know him. But damn you to hell for stealing my neighbor's TV, I would never, ever buy that from you, you dirty thief!



For some people things like this don't hit home unless it actually happens to them on some level. Until then it's pretty easy to stay detached and just enjoy those pretty box sets sitting on the shelf and pretend it's all victimless crime. It reminds me of Richard Stanley getting f*cked over by all the Hardware bootleggers.

At one point there was multiple people bootlegging his film and tossing it up on ebay and on different sites for sale on DVD, because other then VHS and Laserdisc, there was no current legit retail copy available outside of a German dvd release. Rights on that version were even somewhat in question, but it was released by a legit business that had rights to a lot of movies, and the transfer they sold was fairly superior to the Laserdisc visually, so it was pretty obvious they had access to superior source material to use for the transfer.

Anyway, Stanley was kind of powerless to stop it all. The rights to Hardware were sold to a lot of different studios over the years in behind the scenes deals, so you had MGM, Miramax, Disney etc fighting over the rights to his film, while bootleggers were making good profits off it, etc, and it clearly bothered him as he would mention it in interviews. Eventually it got officially re-released here in the US on dvd and bluray, kinda like with his other film Dust Devil. Not sure how much he made off the official release. The thunder was kinda stolen from it due to all the bootlegging over the years. I know the retail price of it dropped down pretty fast after release.

elmer

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In all seriousness, though, you are absolutely right to call me out on the carpet here. Stealing from NEC/Hudson Soft should be no different from stealing from someone like Nightwolve or SamIAm. For some illogical reason, it just felt different. More personal.

Sometimes people pleasantly surprise me, and make me feel that there's some hope for the human race.

SamIAm

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The following is not directed at anyone in particular.

This whole world of retro games is full of moral ambiguities. I can't deny that making a translation patch might actually go against the wishes of the people who made the games, regardless of whether people using the patch own a legit copy of the game.

But the reason why I really want translate a lot of these games is because I want to share experiences and deepen understandings of what to me is a beautiful cultural phenomenon. I'm pretty sure that that's what most fan translators and hackers hope for as well. By my way of thinking, this intention itself is noble enough to override even the hypothetical wish of a creator for a game not to be translated.

You may not agree with that, but bear with me for a minute anyway.

So, is having a physical manual and image-printed disc a necessary component of the "experience" I want to share? Maybe it is. For me, it isn't, and that probably makes me biased. But I'm afraid that when people buy repros of translations or anything else, there's something else going on that has little to do with "experience" or "understanding". I honestly think it's more about satisfying some kind of greed. Even if the guy selling it is only just breaking even, I think that for too many users, when limited physical copies for sale enter the picture, the entire reason for getting the translation morphs away from the reason I had for making it.

That's why any talk of repro sales makes me uncomfortable, never mind the actual legal danger of making such things. If one of the hackers I work with wants to get behind a run of repros for one of our translations, then I'm open to compromise, but frankly I just don't like any of it. I'd like to share translations of the manuals, and I get a kick out of seeing photoshopped English versions of all the materials, but the simple act of selling at any price crosses a line for me. I can no longer look a hypothetical creator in the face and tell him my actions were for the greater good, because I'm afraid that real result was profit and trophies. There's nothing noble about that to me.

Tobias/Fudoh is an a$$hole. I think we can all agree on that. But I hope that this episode can make people reflect on what the best roles for both fan translations and reproductions are within our crazy little community.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 08:38:28 PM by SamIAm »

Jibbajaba

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To paraphrase that argument ...
Quote
Dear Tobias, I'm more than happy to buy the TV that you stole from the guy 2 streets over, it was such a good price and I don't know him. But damn you to hell for stealing my neighbor's TV, I would never, ever buy that from you, you dirty thief!

That's a fallacious analogy.  I'm not saying that piracy is not illegal, but that's just straw-man bullshit.

What this whole argument comes down to is really simple.  There's what we want (and what we will do to get it) versus what we can legitimately have.

Do you guys not see the similarities between these situations? 

Situation A: I want to play Dungeon Explorer II.  I don't have $400 (or don't want to spend it) so I skirt the law and buy a bootleg for $40.

Situation B: You guys want to play Xak III, but you don't know how to read Japanese (and don't want to spend the time to learn.)  So you download a patch that someone made that makes unauthorized changes to someone else's intellectual property so that it is now in a form that you can digest.  Nevermind the fact that probably 95%+ of the people using said patch are patching an ISO of the game that they downloaded, since they don't actually own the game.

Both situations are showing a lack of respect to the IP owners.  You want to play Xak III?  Petition the IP owners to get it translated and released here, on the Virtual Console or something.  Or take your translation patch to them and show them that the work has already been done.  They say no?  Tough shit, that doesn't give you the right to do it yourself.  I want to play Dungeon Explorer II?  I can petition Hudson to release the game on the US Virtual Console.  They say no?  Tough shit, that doesn't give me the right to pirate the game, or buy it from a bootlegger.

Edit: I just read SamIAm's response, and am glad to see what he said.  The only thing I would say to that is that I didn't buy Tobias' sets because I needed pretty shelf shit, but because I want to play PRESSED copies of the games.  I would have been fine with disc-only presses at a fraction of the price.  I would also be more than fine with buying official presses directly from Hudson.  If Tobias can do it, then so can Hudson, on a mail order-only basis.  Movie and television studios have done the same thing, releasing DVD sets of low-demand movies and TV shows.  The game companies choose not to do it. 

And just to make myself absolutely clear, I have NO PROBLEM with people making translation patches.  I think it's f*cking awesome that people do it.  But please don't act like it's a completely legitimate activity while bootlegging isn't.  You can't have it both ways, and say that "game company X doesn't care what we do to this old game" and then also say "you are stealing from game company X by pirating or bootlegging that game."

tknjin

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I love the PC engine, and I love the new experiences with each of the games that I add on to my collection whenever I purchase these originals.  I did not know that that XAK III was a translation done by one of the memebers.  It is fantastic to keep on seeing these games being translated.  Not only that, but then seeing the picture that NightWolve responded to Kisaku about those pressed discs being bought from that Tobias guy really is a sad one.  I knew I saw those, but I never knew it was the same guy who made the PCEworks stuff.  It is very unfortunate to see that these games are being bootlegged for profit off of the PCE/TG16 community.  It is good that I know of this now because I know now that I will not refer anyone to this guy.

I myself have wanted to do translation projects for saturn and pc engine stuff, but its always things like this that I am afraid of.  I am always on the fence of something like this happening, and it makes one feel as all that work that was meant for the community out of the kindness of our hearts is just being pushed aside.  Unfortunately, I do not have as much time as I used to, but to those people that do dedicate their time and patience.  I salute ya because I know how it is like to translate something you love for people.  It is very rewarding

elmer

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Quote
But the reason why I really want translate a lot of these games is because I want to share experiences and deepen understandings of what to me is a beautiful cultural phenomenon. I'm pretty sure that that's what most fan translators and hackers hope for as well. By my way of thinking, this intention itself is noble enough to override even the hypothetical wish of a creator for a game not to be translated.

From my own POV, I suspect that you'd find that most of the actual creative side of the industry wouldn't mind at all ... as long as it's not taking money (or potential money) out of their children's mouths.

From the business side of the industry, that usually means, as long as it's done outside the territories in which there are officially licensed sales.

There are some prima-donna types that need personal control over everything, but fewer than you might think.

It's kind of nice when someone has fond enough memories of the work that you've done that they'll spend considerable amount of their own time and energy to make it meaningfully available to other people ... as long as, once again, money isn't involved.

If money is involved ... then it's a business transaction, and everyone that's had a part in the creation deserves a slice ... anything else is blatantly unfair.

SignOfZeta

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So since everyone pirates something in some fashion, therefore everyone is a pirate and nobody has any right to try and make distinctions between different levels of sleeziness. Since nobody is morally perfect, nobody should even try to be decent.

Its like...you try to teach someone table manners and after 30 seconds they accidentally drop their fork, say "f*ck it" and just eat the whole damn meal with their hands.

Its not about the act of pirating in itself. Piracy of 20 year old games is a victimless crime. There is no way me buying an $1000 eBay copy of DEII is going to generate more money for Hudson than me pirating it. Neither one will steer me towards or away from a Virtual Console version since that's a completely different thing. Legally speaking, the company that made that shit doesn't exist anymore and half the creative staff have died or left the industry. If you actually did manage to arrange an agreement for a physical reprint of a PCE game, the parent company would probably lose money on the deal just from legal costs associated with creating the license. DEII is an artifact of history. Its not for sale anymore. When that game came out Bill Clinton was early in his first term. Nobody had cel phones and the internet was all text. Cars mostly still didn't have airbags. Playing "Smear the Queer" on school playgrounds was still totally cool. There were only three Star Wars movies with no others in site. Anime was still good. Gilbert Gottfried was on USA Network every Saturday night. It was another time, almost another planet. You can't go back and give money to those people. They aren't f*cking there anymore.

Its about who you give the money to. What kind of garbage you're enriching. What you paid for, who got the money, who deserved the money, that kind of shit. Its subtle, but that's what being a grown up is about. This isn't a f*cking GI Joe cartoon.

I can't explain it, I guess.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 08:14:36 AM by SignOfZeta »

Emerald Rocker

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Quote
Do you guys not see the similarities between these situations? 

Situation A: I want to play Dungeon Explorer II.  I don't have $400 (or don't want to spend it) so I skirt the law and buy a bootleg for $40.

Situation B: You guys want to play Xak III, but you don't know how to read Japanese (and don't want to spend the time to learn.)  So you download a patch that someone made..........

Both situations are showing a lack of respect to the IP owners.  Petition the IP owners to get it translated and released here, on the Virtual Console or something.

I disagree with the "lack of respect" comment.  Fan translations are an expression of love for the game, whereas selling illegal bootlegs for profit is an expression of love for money.  The part about petitioning the IP owners is irrelevant.  We don't show respect to an artist by imposing on them to alter or further commodify their work; we show respect by appreciating their work.

Japan has very tolerant attitudes regarding unauthorized derivative works, to the extent that there are actually enormous conventions to showcase those unauthorized derivative works.  This is important because it demonstrates an understanding of how people -- for better or worse -- naturally display their love, admiration, and respect towards artistic works.
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Jibbajaba

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Zeta: Some of us give money to Tobias because no one else is stepping up and filling the void.  You guys constantly talk about how cheap and easy it is to get pressed CDs made.  So why does it take a "sleaze" like him to get it done?

I TOTALLY get what you're saying, although I don't think that the fact that I've bought stuff from Tobias and am not apologizing for it now makes me less of an adult.  My thing is that at least he just saw the desire and demand for something and just f*cking did it.  Here, we have some long ass thread about "hey maybe we should press some games" and nothing to show for it.  But if anyone followed through with it, then you'd be stealing business from Tobias.  Same thing goes for the translations.  People want to buy copies of the translations, but guys like SamIAm don't want to go down that road.  I already made what I thought was a good suggestion for handling that, but it would take organization and the fronting of money, and it would never happen.  So in the absence of an option that pays the proper respect to the guys who made the translation, people will buy what's available.*

Emerald, I also get what you're saying but it kind of sounds like you're using a cultural loophole.  And a translation does not in my opinion count as a "derivative work".  You are directly altering the original work. Again, I don't care.  I'm just saying that both scenarios involve using unauthorized and morally questionable means to knock down the barriers stopping us from playing certain games.

I guess to a certain extent I am just playing Devil's Advocate here, but I am just trying to point out that really we are just talking about different levels of "morally questionable activity" based on what we wrongly perceive as our "right" to play whatever game we want.

* Just on a personal note I will go on record as saying that I will NEVER buy one of these translations from Tobias or anyone else unless they are sanctioned by the people who did the translation.

esteban

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That Tobias f--k went after Xak III and SO II as pressed CD-ROM releases!
« Reply #252 on: March 02, 2015, 06:48:13 PM »
INTERMISSION:

I honestly do not understand anyone who equates "non-profit fan translation project" with "selling reproductions for significant profit"...for an IP that has little to no chance of ever being translated.

WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY THAT MAKES DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN MAJOR AND MINOR ETHICAL TRANSGRESSIONS.

You can guess where I would categorize (1) a non-profit fan-translation of a dead IP that will never be localized VS. (2) a business that sells reproductions for maximum profit.

Just to be clear: I EVALUATE BOTH THE (a) GREED AND THE (b) HARM OF A ONE'S DEEDS before I support or condemn his/her actions.

Others have already spoken eloquently on the moral/ethical distinctions between #1 and #2, so I won't rehash what has already been said.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 06:50:59 PM by esteban »
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IvanBeavkov

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So, is having a physical manual and image-printed disc a necessary component of the "experience" I want to share? Maybe it is. For me, it isn't, and that probably makes me biased.

I'm new here but I feel I can offer a reason that some people would have for having a manual and nice packaging as an important part of the experience. Not a justification just a reason.

Now I'm not really a fan of repos but, I was really tempted by the Dungeon Explorer II repo. Though due to the fact that it was only part of a 4 disc package, and the shadyness of the seller, that I discovered as I looked into it more, turned me off of it.

Here is why I would like to have a nice manufactured version over a burned cd.

When I got my turbo the first Dungeon Explorer wes the third game I got for the system. Loved the game and played it to death. Beat it with I think 5 of the characters got stuck on the 10th boss with most of the rest. Really just a great game. So when I heard that a sequal was comming I was super excited. Well I didn't get it but a friend of mine did. We were the only 2 people I knew of that had turbos. I remember borrowing it off him over Christmas break. I beat it in one sitting, started after dinner finished between 3 & 4 in the morning. I then proceeded to beat it with as many other characters as I could before I returned it.

Well I didn't get my own copy then because my friend had it and we didn't have a lot of overlap of games. Well the game has since shot up in price and my buddy has sold his turbo games, not to me the bastard, and it looks like I won't be able to ever get a copy of that game. Now I've played a burned copy but its not quite the same. I mean the game is the same and still fun but the memories are not attached to a cdr. Sometimes I like to pick up some of my old games and look at the art and flip through the book just for the memories. So seeing a nice looking repro, even if not exactly the same, for a good enough price was very tempting.

Well that is my 2 cents on why some people would be interested in a nice version over a cdr or a flash drive. This reason also dosen't directly apply to translations but hopefully gives a tiny bit of insight into some of the demand.

If you made it this far thanks for reading. :D

DarkKobold

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Arrived, by pceworks.


Congrats on your purchase from a known lying scam artist who perpetrated fraud against the public by claiming his Sapphire bootlegs were authentic when he first starting doing this, even going as far as fabricating a document by Hudson Soft to back his claims up, and who slapped my Xak III fan translation on to these CDs without permission, not because he feared I would say no, but because of greed and the desire to pocket 100% of whatever net profit he would make minus cost of production per CD, etc. Also add Tru/John and his SO II translation who also was not contacted (I have yet to report this to Tru, but I will time permitting), etc. So yes, congrats! Supporting scam artists is brag worthy!


Oh come on.... What did you really hope to achieve with this post?
Hey, you.