trying to understand scanlines....

[seieienbu]

I think scanlines are cool and all on a TV that actually has them but I've never liked adding in scanlines via upscalers.  Emulated scanlines always look a little bit odd to me...  If you want a clean picture use an upscaler on an HD monitor.  If I want a retro scanlines look I'd hook up an old TV that actually had them.

xrgb doesn't actually upscale, they are line doublers,

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=630556

Informative link, thanks.

[Digi.k]

old thread but I don't recall having scanlines displaying prominently during the years when CRT was the main staple and the best connection here was Euro SCART RGB.  I also had a few Sony triniton TVs back in those days and then a big widescreen panasonic CRT.

Anyway these are screen photos of my BVM even though it's tiny but to really notice the scanlines you have to sit up real close or zoom in on the photograph pictures like these:

Those horizontal lines seems to make the picture feel a bit more higher res if that makes sense.  Sony 9"BVM and component connection.  But again I don't recall the scanlines showing up as strong as these back in the day on normal domestic CRT sets.

[ginoscope]

I love the look of scan lines on older 240p games.  Before I got an xrgb mini I was using the cheap scaler and that had no scan lines and most games looked all pixelated which l don't really like. 

I like having the option of using the CRT or hdmi it depends the game.

[Bonknuts]

Those horizontal lines seems to make the picture feel a bit more higher res if that makes sense.

It does, because the pixel height is technically smaller due to the gap of between scanlines. The eye interpolates the difference. Thus it looks a bit higher res.


 As far as HD and SD sets, there is another type of set that came out in the late 90's early 00's - EDTV. They're 480p sets. Depending on the internal scaling algorithms, you might not get scanline gaps in EDTVs.

[Digi.k]

a few more photography shots of scan lines I think I kinda like doing this..

[Necromancer]

Le Gotz!

Maybe it's just the camera (or my imagination), but the colors look a bit washed out.

[schweaty]

I was thinking the same.  Colors look a bit dull

[SignOfZeta]

old thread but I don't recall having scanlines displaying prominently during the years when CRT was the main staple and the best connection here was Euro SCART RGB.  I also had a few Sony triniton TVs back in those days and then a big widescreen panasonic CRT.

Anyway these are screen photos of my BVM even though it's tiny but to really notice the scanlines you have to sit up real close or zoom in on the photograph pictures like these:

Those horizontal lines seems to make the picture feel a bit more higher res if that makes sense.  Sony 9"BVM and component connection.  But again I don't recall the scanlines showing up as strong as these back in the day on normal domestic CRT sets.

Back when CRT was the norm you'd need a professional photographer to get screenshots like that and even then it would be much shittier, most likely. When the ability to freeze a moment in time comes into play you notice it more. Many many sets have way thicker scanlines than that. Look at coverage in PC Engine Fan or Dengeki PC Engine. I know there was a review of one of the Xanadu games in particular that made me notice the scanlines and that was when everything was CRT.

In the SD analog realm a scanline isn't a thing, it's the lack of a thing. It's where the beam doesn't go. On old video games actually running in 240p (in the US this was rarely seen outside of arcades, computers, and SNES demo kiosks...maybe) the lines will be super thick. Once you get that SNES home and hook it up to your brand new 19" Trinitron that cost $600 you'll see much thinner scanlines because now your running 480i composite, essentially an analog line doubling hack. The image will also be a lot brighter because the beam is covering twice as much ground, but that depends on you're TV's ability to componsate gain, which was really bad a long time ago but eventually became perfect in later CRTs.

We love scanlines but TVs were mainly made for reproduction of film and they don't help film one bit so since the invention of the TV trying to reduce scanline visibility was a constant thing. My 2004 "super fine pitch" CRT produces virtually no visable scanlines because it's really a 720p CRT that accepts lower signals. It's f*cking *ACE* for Laserdisc but the effect on games is mixed. It ends up looking like a Plasma or one of the better LCDs.

[Bonknuts]

In the SD analog realm a scanline isn't a thing, it's the lack of a thing. It's where the beam doesn't go.

 In the vernacular, this is true. But it actually means the active displayed line - not the gap. When people said something has "scanlines", they were referring to the fact that the scanlines were visibly noticeable (because of the gaps), as opposed to being solid (no gap). I'm not nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking, but for the fact that documents on raster effects refer to scanlines as what they are (active display lines). And in demo/homebrew/coding circles, you'll see scanlines referring to the active displayed line (or even the time in which a line would appear during vblank).

[SignOfZeta]

In practical terms for engineers and stuff at the time, you are right. The black line and the signal line are the same. It's only recently that average people cared about "scanlines" (the black lines) due to their absence, and then they became thought of as an actual thing. Really it's just what the beam doesn't cover but would if it were possible back in the day. A 240p image is pretty low res and the beam is only so wide so you get gaps in between. If you could fatten up the beam enough you'd have no black lines but on old displays...

Like a nostril, the punters consider it the hole in your nose but the doctor is only interested in the fleshy parts.

This makes me think...has anyone tried engineering a drop-in RGB display that had black "scanlines" built into it? When I see those things in arcades it's hard not to notice how shitty many of them are and mostly this is due to them being left over TV tech. You could even bake in the mesh if you wanted.

[thesteve]

OK a few points
1 the consumer TV did not line double back in the day, that wasn't until the 480p days
It would place the lines by simple timing
2 the advantage of visible lines it to not display what's not in the original image

Sent from my VS920 4G using Tapatalk

[SignOfZeta]

OK a few points
1 the consumer TV did not line double back in the day, that wasn't until the 480p days
It would place the lines by simple timing
2 the advantage of visible lines it to not display what's not in the original image

Sent from my VS920 4G using Tapatalk

I stand corrected. However I sorta disagree about that image. Visable scanlines are a (usually unintentional) byproduct of a display. If your display produces them, yippie, if not, no big. Neither is the "original image". The PCE puts out 240p, not 480p with a synthetic 000 gap every other line like an XRGB does. Sprite sheets aren't interlaced with black. It's "original" as in "original gangsta" but it's not "original" as in it being in the system somewhere.

[Medic_wheat]

OK a few points
1 the consumer TV did not line double back in the day, that wasn't until the 480p days
It would place the lines by simple timing
2 the advantage of visible lines it to not display what's not in the original image

Sent from my VS920 4G using Tapatalk

I stand corrected. However I sorta disagree about that image. Visable scanlines are a (usually unintentional) byproduct of a display. If your display produces them, yippie, if not, no big. Neither is the "original image". The PCE puts out 240p, not 480p with a synthetic 000 gap every other line like an XRGB does. Sprite sheets aren't interlaced with black. It's "original" as in "original gangsta" but it's not "original" as in it being in the system somewhere.

I have heard many people argus about it.

Some claim that when the developers made the games they took into account there would be scan lines. This in turn leads some to feel the art of the image and display animation is dependent on the presence of scan lines.

Other feel it was never the intension for scan lines to be present.


However, since to my knowledge no developer or sprit animator has ever come forward to say scan lines where the intended look of their games no one may never know.


My thought process is that when the games were being made he limitations of consumer electronics were always a factor of the game design. Similarly to his various types of video inputs as they became more varied to most consumer homes with cheaper and cheaper technology i.e RF connectors leading to RGB, to s video to HDMI and so on and so forth chrome on sync or Lumas or what have you the available tools of the asteroid image of the display also became more varied with the designers intent.


Mind you for many of us we grew up with a SD CRT tv. So nestalgia wants us to think the image of the game must be preserved by the image the tv creates as it was in our memories. Hell first tv I ever owned was a 12 inch tv that had knobs to change changes and volume. By the time it was mind I had to use a pair of pliers to change chanles. If I were to ever find that tv again if buy it in a heart beat simply because I remember t as the first tv I ever owned and had in my room up to when I graduated high school.

[esteban]

OK a few points
1 the consumer TV did not line double back in the day, that wasn't until the 480p days
It would place the lines by simple timing
2 the advantage of visible lines it to not display what's not in the original image

Sent from my VS920 4G using Tapatalk

I stand corrected. However I sorta disagree about that image. Visable scanlines are a (usually unintentional) byproduct of a display. If your display produces them, yippie, if not, no big. Neither is the "original image". The PCE puts out 240p, not 480p with a synthetic 000 gap every other line like an XRGB does. Sprite sheets aren't interlaced with black. It's "original" as in "original gangsta" but it's not "original" as in it being in the system somewhere.

I have heard many people argus about it.

Some claim that when the developers made the games they took into account there would be scan lines. This in turn leads some to feel the art of the image and display animation is dependent on the presence of scan lines.

Other feel it was never the intension for scan lines to be present.


However, since to my knowledge no developer or sprit animator has ever come forward to say scan lines where the intended look of their games no one may never know.


My thought process is that when the games were being made he limitations of consumer electronics were always a factor of the game design. Similarly to his various types of video inputs as they became more varied to most consumer homes with cheaper and cheaper technology i.e RF connectors leading to RGB, to s video to HDMI and so on and so forth chrome on sync or Lumas or what have you the available tools of the asteroid image of the display also became more varied with the designers intent.


Mind you for many of us we grew up with a SD CRT tv. So nestalgia wants us to think the image of the game must be preserved by the image the tv creates as it was in our memories. Hell first tv I ever owned was a 12 inch tv that had knobs to change changes and volume. By the time it was mind I had to use a pair of pliers to change chanles. If I were to ever find that tv again if buy it in a heart beat simply because I remember t as the first tv I ever owned and had in my room up to when I graduated high school.

We have an old thread about this. I agree with you: designers clearly knew that console games we're going to be used on consumer CRT...so developers/designers ABSOLUTELY PLANNED AND DESIGNED AESTHETICS with final display (standard consumer CRT) in mind. 

[SignOfZeta]

Of course. They didn't have $2000 PVMs at home either.