185 NOS PCE games trade proposal - should I go for it ?

[elmer]

Yes indeed it's me with Ralph Baer on the welcome page of my site. If you click the link just under the picture you'll see the original photo.

OK, so that makes you David Winter.

Well done with the Pong Story website!

Now, from the comments on YouTube video, which was posted 2 years ago by "TheYoupiland"

This prototype was sold 3 years ago, but the sale may have been cancelled.

Then it was auctioned 2 years ago for 10,000€.

Then you youself posted 1 year ago ...

And the good news is that the happy owner has decided to make a limited edition CD in a collector pack. No more information for the moment ...

Which doesn't really make it sound like you're the owner or that you personally bought it in Japan, but perhaps that's just a bad Google translation.

Perhaps you are indeed the original owner from 3+ years ago, and you've just had at least 1 expensive sale fall though already ... and then now you're here talking about another sale with problems.

That's a lot of bad luck!

But whatever ... if you either bought it or agreed to sell it 2 years ago for $10,000, then accepting $5,000-$10,000 worth of games as only 25% payment ... well, I'm curious, just how much profit are you looking for?

[pongstory]

I'm not really trying to make some profit on it. At least that's not the goal.
My goal right now is to finish a deal or to find another solution, hence this thread.

Since you seem interested to know what really happened, here's the story:
This game was originally bought in Japan, but not by me (I never said that *I* bought it in Japan).
It was then put in auction in Paris where I live. When I saw this, I got some infos from the auction expert who I know well, and I bought it because my initial idea was to make a release (hence the post that you found). If you know the expert, then ask him yourself to verify.

Just for your info, I once found an unreleased Atari 2600 game: 3D Rubik's Cube. With AtariAge we did a very nice release in a deluxe box, etc. You can check that if you want (and I still have some numbered specimens for sale by the way).

So I wanted to do something similar.  After the purchase, I checked who made some HuCards but it happened to be too expensive at the time (a blank flash cost $49 back then). So I decided to keep it should a better solution exist.
If a cheaper solution did exist at this time, I didn't find it mainly because I didn't have my whole days as I'm raising a young family and run my own antiques shop.

And so I kept the DF prototype until someone contacted me about the auction where other interesting games were sold. Somewhere along the discussion I mentioned what I bought and the guy seemed very interested. We agreed on a price, and you know the rest of the story.

If you find yourself smart or funny by taking parts of texts here and there and then try to build nonsense stories, you're wasting your time and this is totaly useless, for not saying stupid.

As a reminder, the goal of this thread is to know whether I should accept a proposition to finish a deal.

If you really think I don't have the DF proto, that's your option, and it would be quite stupid I must say especially since some other people have seen it in person.

So let's try to do something constructive, right ? This leaves three options.

1) The lot of 185 games is definitely worth what the guy owes me and won't take more than several months to sell. If so, that's fine with me and I'll go for it.
2) The lot is not worth the money (and time). This leaves the last two options: either doing a nice release so that everybody interested can enjoy it, and I can at the same time refund the guy and get my investments back, or simply resell it to whoever will make a serious and acceptable offer, elthough I would much prefer doing a release without loosing money).

If that's not clear enough, well I don't know what else I can say.
It's your right to not believe me, but please stop sharing your mistakes. Thanks.

[cabbage]

If the original agreement was that you would be paid money for the whole price (and not a partial trade using games to cover the value), then that should be honored. If the buyer thinks those games are worth more than the amount owed, he/she should just sell them off and pay you the remainder of what is owed. (*In my opinion)

If you take the deal, you might make more money, or you might 'lose' money--since sealed PCE games don't seem to be as hot a collectible as, say, sealed Nintendo games have come to be. Either way, you're going to be putting forth a lot of time and energy trying to sell off all those games.

It's certainly possible to produce the hucards and sell them. Without knowing what you paid for the proto, it's impossible to say how easy it will be to recover your initial investment.

New hucards can allegedly be produced for approx. $20 (USD), perhaps even a bit less. New, 3D-printed hucard cases are being sold for well under $10 each here on the forums. New hucard sleeves are cheaply available as well. I don't know the costs for manufacturing a manual/insert, but I'm sure it's insignificant compared to the other costs. So, roughly estimate $30-35 to produce a nice hucard/sleeve/case/manual.

From there, you can do the math better than I would without knowing your exact situation. Certainly I, and many others, would be happy to support an effort to bring a long-lost PC Engine title into the light of day.

Of course, it is up to you what you do with it. Good luck with whatever you decide.

RE: the values of those games... well, they're sealed, so it's harder to determine. Perhaps there are some sealed collectors out there willing to pay a premium, but there are far more who would prefer a cheaper, open copy so it can actually be played. Most of the prices seem too high, in my humble opinion, with the exception of perhaps "Bouken Danshaken Don San-Heart Hen" at 35 (US Dollars, I hope).

To give a concrete example, I recently saw nine copies of Fatal Fury 2 sell for around $3-4 (USD) each locally. They sold quickly, mind you, so perhaps they're worth a bit more.

Browsing ebay, I see new copies of Final Soldier that just sold for $35, $50, $52, $54, $29, and $27. Pomping World sold for $32. Twinbee sold for $60. Bomberman for $32. PC Genjin 3 sold for $152--twice--and PC Genjin 2 for $103, both of which are very surprising to me. PC Denjin sold for $106. Minesweeper sold for $15, but another failed to sell at $12.

Still on ebay, a new copy of Bomberman 94 went unsold at $50. Space Harrier went unsold at $34. Ninja Gaiden failed to sell at $130. Darius Plus failed to sell at $65. Dynastic Hero failed to sell at $10(!).

Note that none of those account for shipping costs, if applicable. Hope those figures help~

[esteban]

Pongstory, it is natural for many folks to be skeptical. How could they not be? I want to believe you, but I'd be a fool not to be wary.

We have classic case of a highly desirable, unique item (Dino Force), coupled with a person who is new to the community and therefore has not established credibility/reputation (yet).

Naturally, we all want to believe this is legit, but we can't help being skeptical. Especially with such large amounts of $$$ involved.

I wish there was a safe way for us to hold money in escrow....this would help tremendously in situations like this.

[pongstory]

I wish I could make a video and show the game in action, but I have no console right now and all emulators won't run correctly. Sprites don't appear under emulation, but the game works great on a friend's LT. If a video showing an incorrect emulation is ok for you to believe that I actually have this prototype even if I'm completely new to NEC stuff, then I'll be happy to try doing one for you.

[Necromancer]

At this point, does it really matter if you really have it or not?  It won't change anyone's opinion that the price list given is unrealistic, nor will it change the estimated costs of booty production.  The only purpose it serves is if you're fishing for a buyer.

[MotherGunner]

Some of those estimated values are incorrect IMO. 

[elmer]

I wish there was a safe way for us to hold money in escrow....this would help tremendously in situations like this.

escrow.com ... I was introduced to them recently in the sale of a domain-name.

For example ...
[ul][li]Buyer deposits the money with escrow.com[/li][li]Seller sends the ROM to a lawyer (of his choosing) close to the buyer.[/li][li]Buyer opens the package, tests the ROM, and either accepts or rejects the sale.[/li][li]Buyer contacts escrow.com to release the funds to the seller.[/li][li]Lawyer verifies the transfer and releases the ROM to the buyer, or just sends it back to the seller.[/li][/ul]
But really, folks ... $10,000-$20,000 for the game that was shown in that YouTube video?

The same game that you were trying to raise $5,000 for in 2012?

http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=13443.0

[elmer]

that was 2012 dollars.  2015 has turbo dollars of 3-4x now. get with the times!

Hahaha, I totally forgot about the amazing economic recovery! 

[wildfruit]

I bought bomber man 94 for about £10 a year ago.
Energy is worth nothing just give that crap away.
Detana twinbee can easily be had for less than half that price. Also not only is this cunt not paying you he is hoarding 60+ genjin/denjin games.
Damn hoarder.
Scuse my language.
Just saying.

[xelement5x]

Put me on the list of folks that hope you find a way to sell/release this title.  At least the Euro is weaker now, so if whoever is buying it is doing so in USD, then they're getting a much better deal today than in 2012!

[pongstory]

Thanks for your details.

I'm definitely not trying to phish a buyer. As I said, that's only an option which isn't my preferred.

The overall opinion on those 185 games is that I would make some  money with the best titles, but would also need a lot of time to sell the rest.
If I could get up to $6500 quickly, I'd definitely opt for it (so no, the guy doesn't owe me $10K) and send the guy his game.

Too bad I didn't know about escrow, that would have probably been easier, but how much does this cost ? A lawyer isn't cheap in any case.

[elmer]

If you find yourself smart or funny by taking parts of texts here and there and then try to build nonsense stories, you're wasting your time and this is totaly useless, for not saying stupid.

Nope, I'm neither particularly smart, nor particularly funny, but I do quite like a puzzle ... and there are things that you refuse to say that I'm rather curious about.

At this point, I've read enough to honestly believe that you do actually have the prototype cartridge ... but that wasn't at all certain when you turned up out of nowhere with this story.

I am pretty ignorant about this particular Dino Force prototype game, and so I've been wasting my time trying to understand both the game itself and it's recent history.

While the details may be a little inaccurate, I think that I've got a handle on the overall arc ...

In 2012, people here were trying to club together with another PCE forum in France to raise 500,000 Yen to buy the game from Akiba Games in Japan.

There is a comment in the YouTube thread that the game sells at auction in Paris for 10,000 Euro in 2013/2014.

That gives us some idea of the price that you paid when you said ...

This game was originally bought in Japan, but not by me (I never said that *I* bought it in Japan).
It was then put in auction in Paris where I live. When I saw this, I got some infos from the auction expert who I know well, and I bought it because my initial idea was to make a release (hence the post that you found).

Now in 2015, you're selling this game on to another buyer for a price that you won't disclose (which is absolutely your right).

But, you've given us enough clues that we can estimate a ballpark figure, since you've said ...

We agreed the price and the buyer sent monthly payments until he stopped paying (he owes me 25% of the agreed price which I will keep confidential).

If I could get up to $6500 quickly, I'd definitely opt for it (so no, the guy doesn't owe me $10K) and send the guy his game.

Let's say that you're valuing the time that it would take to organize the "quick" sales of the CDs that you've been offered at $1,500.

That would lead us to an estimate that the 25% figure that the buyer owes is currently valued at $5,000.

Which would suggest that you've already been paid $15,000 out of a $20,000 "agreed" price.

At today's exchange rate, that's a 17,500 Euro selling price.

That's for a prototype that you seemingly purchased for 10,000 Euro.

You're welcome to correct any of those figures, should you wish to.

You said ...

I'm not really trying to make some profit on it. At least that's not the goal.

Really?

BTW ... there's absolutely nothing wrong with making a profit, that's how we all live, you don't need to be ashamed of it.

Just for your info, I once found an unreleased Atari 2600 game: 3D Rubik's Cube. With AtariAge we did a very nice release in a deluxe box, etc. You can check that if you want (and I still have some numbered specimens for sale by the way).

I wasn't familiar with the story around the 3D Rubik's Cube game, so I thought that I'd take up the offer and waste some more of my time to do a little research.

This site gives an interesting history of that particular discovery ...

http://www.2600connection.com/articles/3d_rubiks_cube/3d_rubiks_cube.html

[Necromancer]

This site gives an interesting history of that particular discovery ...

I was going to skip reading that wall o' text, but I'm glad I didn't.  Such lulzery. 

[xelement5x]

This site gives an interesting history of that particular discovery ...

I was going to skip reading that wall o' text, but I'm glad I didn't.  Such lulzery. 

No joke, kind of reminds me kind that guy who was making the Predator Pinball.