Author Topic: Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?  (Read 6494 times)

Keranu

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #195 on: August 23, 2006, 09:12:42 PM »
Quote from: "Joe Redifer"

Yeah, that's what I mean.  Vectorman looks like ass, yet it has 70 colors or more onscreen pretty much throughout the entire game.

There are also plenty of games that us more than 64 colors that look great too. By the way, I though Vectorman looked kinda nice, though a bit dithery. The sequel looks nicer.
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Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Joe Redifer

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #196 on: August 23, 2006, 11:01:32 PM »
Vectorman 2 actually uses less than 61 colors at all times from what I've seen.  Probably because it is so dark.  I refuse to play any game that does not put at least 40 colors on the first screen I see after pressing START (or RUN).


(Kidding, by the way).

Black Tiger

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #197 on: August 24, 2006, 02:10:53 AM »
Quote
Oh, and just for fun, more colors simultaneously doesn't always equal spooge-fest graphics. It is probably more important to have better colors to choose from in the first place. Here are some pics of a couple of Genesis games that put more than 64 colors onscreen simultaneously:


It really depends on the comparison.

Like say, if you gave the NES a 16 million color pallete. The games would still be limited by per sprite color restrictions, number of colors onscreen overall etc.

Finally, the Genesis is so far off from the PC Engine color display-wise, that even if you gave it a 16 million color pallete, the PC Engine would still have the potential for better screen shot graphics overall.

But if well reproduced beutiful art isn't what someone judges "good graphics" by, say someone like Dave Halverson from Gamefan/Play magazines...

-and instead your brain is mainly stimulated by moving slates(no matter how bland), or some kind of simple warping effect that you've been told once was hard(or impossible) to do(or in the current gen, feet that slant on hills)...

-then it doesn't really matter and taking an bland NES game and super-charging it with 50 layers of parallax and 15 independant scrolling bg's and scaling/rotating sprites and throwing in a 'special' sound(ing) chip... all with under 18 unique colors onscreen and some crude art...

-would impress them more than any Capcom or Neo Geo arcade game with any bg layers turned static.


And I'm not going to say matter-of-factly that well-reproduced art = good graphics(even though I can argue that everyone agrees so outside of systems wars scenarios, like say judging an arcade game standing on it's own).

Because there are a lot of people out there(especially on internet rant pages) who really have no taste(good or bad) in art and really do judge all game graphics by self-percieved technicalities or single particulars, like:

"all 16-bit games must use parallax or they look like NES!"

"all 32-bit games must be 3D and use (what I deem to be)true light sourcing or the they look like 32X( tehy sux)!"

"all '128-bit' games must use any kind of 'mapping' that I happen to think up of while playing a particular game, particularly if one or two other consoles don't render it in hardware(and therefore by my definition not at all), or it loos like PSX graffix!"


....now, back to the whole pallete thing.

The SNES is supposed to always have the bestest graphics, no matter what(!), 'cuz its got a bigger pallete and can display 256 onscreen. But when you look at so many of those OMG games that you remember looking so hot back in the day on an emulator (or S-Video) today... you can now see that a lot are kinda drab color-wise and often don't use too many colors in their fantastic bg's.

I used to beleive that the PC Engine had a crappy pallete like the Genesis and that SNES had to ALWAYS be better(!). But now I see how vibrant the colors are in most decent PCE games, even the lower color ones.


Finally, the Genesis doesn't seem to be bottle necked by the 64 colors onscreen thing so much as other 'per colors limits. I amateurly say this because there so many(all?) quality ports to Genesis, where the same game also appears on SNES or TG/PCE... and in both/all versions, there are less than 64 colors(thats a lot of colors!) onscreen in all versions... but the Genesis version still noticibly recycles colors and winds up showing slightly less shading than the other(s).
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T2KFreeker

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #198 on: August 24, 2006, 09:24:27 AM »
Going by certain theories that have been thrown around for a long time, I have such a hard tinme taking anything that any videogame magazine or corpoately sponsored videogam web site has to say. I am one of those people that looks at what limitations that a system may have and try to see the amazing things that it does, and this can get hard, especially when you are a fan of the underdog systems. Alot of the people I know talk so much shit about perfectly good systems like the Atari Jaguar, 32-X, and Saturn, I still don't see the point. Each of the systems mentioned has awesome games that take advantage of what the hardware can do, and each has been "Tricked" into doing siome amazing stff.
Example; Ever seen Rayman on the Jaguar? Blows both the Playstation and Saturn versions out of the water. The 32-X actually has some of the nicest games I've seen from that generation of gaming, right at the tail end of the death of 16 bit, it still was an awesome little piece of Hardware that was never really pushed, and I still think that it is sad.
As far as the Turbo Grafx/Duo/PCE, this system just has some of the most amazing games ever made. It may not have the most colors on screen, or all the junk that the SNES has, or "Blast Processing" :roll:  like the Genesis, but it does what it is supposed to do, and does it well. It plays games, and that was what it was supposed to do. NEC was able to revolutionize gaming as a whole so much with one system. I remember when everyone in the industry was laughing at them for using the CD Rom on their machine. Well, we know where that went. nThat right there is a huge factor to look at when looking at this system. Even though the first batch of games wasn't the best in the world, look at later releases like Shape Shifter, Y's, Shadow Of The Beast, and God help us, Beyond Shadowgate. These are amazing examples of games that were just awesome as hell. Splatterhouse on the PC Engine is still far better than either of the Genesis games, and then we have Bonk, great stuff. I don't know about you all, but I HATED Bonk on the SNES, it was horrid.
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Black Tiger

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #199 on: August 24, 2006, 11:52:52 AM »
Quote from: "T2KFreeker"
Going by certain theories that have been thrown around for a long time, I have such a hard tinme taking anything that any videogame magazine or corpoately sponsored videogam web site has to say. I am one of those people that looks at what limitations that a system may have and try to see the amazing things that it does, and this can get hard, especially when you are a fan of the underdog systems. Alot of the people I know talk so much shit about perfectly good systems like the Atari Jaguar, 32-X, and Saturn, I still don't see the point. Each of the systems mentioned has awesome games that take advantage of what the hardware can do, and each has been "Tricked" into doing siome amazing stff.
Example; Ever seen Rayman on the Jaguar? Blows both the Playstation and Saturn versions out of the water. The 32-X actually has some of the nicest games I've seen from that generation of gaming, right at the tail end of the death of 16 bit, it still was an awesome little piece of Hardware that was never really pushed, and I still think that it is sad.
As far as the Turbo Grafx/Duo/PCE, this system just has some of the most amazing games ever made. It may not have the most colors on screen, or all the junk that the SNES has, or "Blast Processing" :roll:  like the Genesis, but it does what it is supposed to do, and does it well. It plays games, and that was what it was supposed to do. NEC was able to revolutionize gaming as a whole so much with one system. I remember when everyone in the industry was laughing at them for using the CD Rom on their machine. Well, we know where that went. nThat right there is a huge factor to look at when looking at this system. Even though the first batch of games wasn't the best in the world, look at later releases like Shape Shifter, Y's, Shadow Of The Beast, and God help us, Beyond Shadowgate. These are amazing examples of games that were just awesome as hell. Splatterhouse on the PC Engine is still far better than either of the Genesis games, and then we have Bonk, great stuff. I don't know about you all, but I HATED Bonk on the SNES, it was horrid.


I loved the 32X. It was my first and main Doom experience. It was worth it alone for that one game.

I also loved Virtua Racing and had wanted to play the game for less than $1 per credit ever since I first came across an arcade unit during a trip to a big city.

I got both games and the 32X at X-Mas/my birthday and I had fun with it for months after(I still don't know what happend to it, lost in a move?)

I also didn't like SNES Bonk and didn't give the SFC game a chance after helicoptering through a maze as a chicken for way too long.


Quote
I have the Saturn version as well as the 32X version (the sound is almost identical between the two). I also have the Genesis version and the Master System version which has the melodies. Does the PCE version have the melodies? I really hate how they removed the melodies from After Burner 2.


The PCE version definately has more than the Genesis version, but I don't know if there is still some missing from the arcade.
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T2KFreeker

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #200 on: August 24, 2006, 12:10:29 PM »
Quote from: "Black_Tiger"
Quote from: "T2KFreeker"
Going by certain theories that have been thrown around for a long time, I have such a hard tinme taking anything that any videogame magazine or corpoately sponsored videogam web site has to say. I am one of those people that looks at what limitations that a system may have and try to see the amazing things that it does, and this can get hard, especially when you are a fan of the underdog systems. Alot of the people I know talk so much shit about perfectly good systems like the Atari Jaguar, 32-X, and Saturn, I still don't see the point. Each of the systems mentioned has awesome games that take advantage of what the hardware can do, and each has been "Tricked" into doing siome amazing stff.
Example; Ever seen Rayman on the Jaguar? Blows both the Playstation and Saturn versions out of the water. The 32-X actually has some of the nicest games I've seen from that generation of gaming, right at the tail end of the death of 16 bit, it still was an awesome little piece of Hardware that was never really pushed, and I still think that it is sad.
As far as the Turbo Grafx/Duo/PCE, this system just has some of the most amazing games ever made. It may not have the most colors on screen, or all the junk that the SNES has, or "Blast Processing" :roll:  like the Genesis, but it does what it is supposed to do, and does it well. It plays games, and that was what it was supposed to do. NEC was able to revolutionize gaming as a whole so much with one system. I remember when everyone in the industry was laughing at them for using the CD Rom on their machine. Well, we know where that went. nThat right there is a huge factor to look at when looking at this system. Even though the first batch of games wasn't the best in the world, look at later releases like Shape Shifter, Y's, Shadow Of The Beast, and God help us, Beyond Shadowgate. These are amazing examples of games that were just awesome as hell. Splatterhouse on the PC Engine is still far better than either of the Genesis games, and then we have Bonk, great stuff. I don't know about you all, but I HATED Bonk on the SNES, it was horrid.


I loved the 32X. It was my first and main Doom experience. It was worth it alone for that one game.

I also loved Virtua Racing and had wanted to play the game for less than $1 per credit ever since I first came across an arcade unit during a trip to a big city.

I got both games and the 32X at X-Mas/my birthday and I had fun with it for months after(I still don't know what happend to it, lost in a move?)

I also didn't like SNES Bonk and didn't give the SFC game a chance after helicoptering through a maze as a chicken for way too long.


Great, sounds like a nightmare! :roll:
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Joe Redifer

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #201 on: August 24, 2006, 01:05:00 PM »
Quote from: "Black_Tiger"
The PCE version definately has more [melody] than the Genesis version, but I don't know if there is still some missing from the arcade.

Yes, I was able to listen to it on your site.  That's how After Burner 1 sounds... which is MUCH better in my opinion.  That's not to say After Burner 2's music sucks, but I really do like the additional melodies.  There aren't any melodies in the PCE version that are missing from the (After Burner 1) arcade.  In fact I think it added a couple at the end of Final Take Off.  The Sega CD After Burner 3 has the melodies, but unfortunately it also has some really bad sounding fake trumpets or horns of some type that really aren't very appropriate for the music.  Otherwise it sounds godly.

Tatsujin

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #202 on: August 24, 2006, 05:08:07 PM »
Quote from: "malducci"

 I think the SCD and arcade card both were excellent upgrades for the PCE that helped a show its potential.

When it comes to PCE SCD/AC vs Genesis/MD - the only thing MD has on the PCE CD system is the extra scrolling background layer. Oh SGX, why were you shown no CD love?


so truly true, dude! you've seeing it in the right and correct way!
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nodtveidt

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #203 on: August 24, 2006, 05:30:19 PM »
Quote from: "malducci"
Oh SGX, why were you shown no CD love?

Making SGX CDROM games is very possible, but I have no idea why this was never done. I believe there are some PCE hax0rs who've already experimented with this...PD and I were going to test the concept out since he has the entire setup but we never got to it... :cry:

Keranu

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #204 on: August 24, 2006, 05:55:17 PM »
I'm still waiting for us to make some demos via SGC CD :D . Super Grafx + CD + Arcade Card... just imagine the possibilites  :) .
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Joe Redifer

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #205 on: August 24, 2006, 06:01:46 PM »
Didn't the SuperGrafx have some sort of problem which prohibited it from operating at its full potential?  I can't remember what it is eactly, but something about how memory must be shared and graphics or some such thing.  I also heard the SuperGrafx had many more colors but I've never seen evidence of this by any screen shots... none of them looked like anything the PCE couldn't do aside from the extra scrolling layer. They should have included the extra SuperGrafx chipset on the Super System Card 3.0... for free.

Tatsujin

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #206 on: August 24, 2006, 06:09:09 PM »
Quote from: "Joe Redifer"
should have included the extra SuperGrafx chipset on the Super System Card 3.0... for free.

and hou you think this should have been possible?

more they should have included the chipset into the DUO itself.
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Keranu

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #207 on: August 24, 2006, 06:09:48 PM »
Don't recall hearing the SGX having problems like that, but I'm not the person who would know the answer for that. The SGX has no color differences from the regular PCE, as far as I know.
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Tatsujin

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #208 on: August 24, 2006, 06:19:59 PM »
only double of the vram and different sprite option (size or amount), i believe.
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T2KFreeker

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #209 on: August 24, 2006, 06:30:38 PM »
I can say that as far at the Arcade Card goes, Strider was amazing as all Hell on the Turbo/PCE. I still rmember playing it and drooling over the game, it was just amazing, period. Even though the Genesis version was awesome for it's time, the Arcade Card versiobn stomps all over it!
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