Author Topic: Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?  (Read 6479 times)

SignOfZeta

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2006, 02:07:52 PM »
Quote from: "takashirose"

I wonder if the PS3 will be the next Turbo Duo because it looks like it a little bit and is misunderstood because of the price.


I think I understand the PS3 totally, and I have no interest in it.

I don't think there will be a "next Turbo Duo" any time soon. The way the industry is now, everything is just too "big time". Every game for the PS3, at least for the first few years, will big a mega production with 2000 man dev teams, and $100 million advertising budgets. In short, the exact opposite of Kuni-kun, or Peach Boy, or Bonk. All budget, no soul.

An example: This was on Magic Box the other day:

"SNK Playmore marketing manager Yoshihito Koyama said that their first PS3 title probably won't reach the market until 2009, the reason is that the development cost and initial investment is really high and the user base will not be high enough for their games to sell."

Obviously SNK isn't as significant as it once was, but still they are hardly a small time developer/publisher. If they can't affort PS3, then you can count out anything like a modern day version of Naxat, Technos, Laser Soft, etc.

Its shit like Full Spectrum Warrior, GTA, Star Wars, and Madden from here on out.

_joshuaTurbo

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a reply from me..yay!
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2006, 03:06:53 PM »
Off-Topic:  I have heard a HELL of alot of "This system flopped" or "That failed"  but truly in my humble opinion, very few consoles in history failed.  Systems like the CDi, The Virtual Boy, and the 32X are indeed failures.  Even the PCFX should be considered a failure.  

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Because in the modern world of gaming, if you don't sell as many units as the PSOne did, you flopped, which is bullshit. I laugh when I hear people talk about the Gamecube being a flop, it is sad really as people have no clue what they are talking about.


EXACTLY!! Many of the systems that people call failures have moved off of shelves very well!!  

Back on Topic:
Back in the 16-bit wars I owned a SNES and a TG16.  never really found a reason to invest in the genny.  Allthough there are some bright spots in Sega's 16-bitter.  Gunstar Heroes, Warriors of the Eternal Sun, Phantasy Star IV, Streets of Rage(all).  

If I had to rate sound, this is how it would go-  The SNES sound chip is AMAZING!!!  I like SNES music better than N64's!  Games like Rock'nRoll Racing, Super Adventure Island, and Actraiser have crazy good music!  Then the Genesis closely followed by TG16.  Unless of course if you're counting CD and SCD games, then Turbo Kills all!  Lords of Thunder, Riot Zone, Ys-  BEST SOUNDTRACKS IN GAMING HISTORY.

If I had to rate on Graffics, the SNES has amazing grafx, the Genesis would come in second, but the Turbo comes in a close third.  Like mentioned above, its a shame the system was never truly pushed to its limits.  this is just judging by cart format of course, because if you consider the Super CD and ACD games, then the Turbo and SNES are equals!  

Now heres something that I hadn't seen people consider:
The GamePads.  The Genesis(original) gamepad was terrible, The TurboGrafx was pretty unorigina, but did the job.  Impossible to play SFII with, but still worked 99% of the time with other games.  But I consider the SNES pads to be one of the best gamepads ever made.  You never needed to buy another gamepad, it worked with everything, except the super scope games(lol)

wow, this post is long...sorry...


TurboSage, shoving my opinion down yall's throats!

takashirose

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2006, 04:07:33 PM »
I am one of those guys that puts all of the upgrades for the TurboGrafx and DUo in one group.  I love my turbo Duo.  I love all the systems we are comparing now.  They all hold different memories.  Of course I did not own a Turbo Duo back then, but I am the first owner of mine.  

I actually like the turbografx controller because it reminds me of the nes controller and it's not a complicated one.  Of course for Street Fighter II, I would get the Avenue 6 or another 6 button pad.
Let the old mix with the new.

esteban

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2006, 04:53:30 PM »
Quote from: "Nemo"
Quote from: "GUTS"
I've loved the Sega CD ever since I first played Eye of the Beholder & Lunar, hell I can name off more good Sega CD games than I can HuCard games honestly.  People just need to dig into the library a little deeper than Lunar & Snatcher, there are tons of great games like Android Assault, Heart of the Alien, Road Avenger, Final Fight, Robo Aleste, etc.


No doubt. It's about quality, not quantity with the Sega CD.  Add Popful Mail, Vay, Time Gal, and Revenge of the Ninja.
As I said, I am pro-Sega and love the Sega-CD, but the list of games I return to in the Sega-CD library is incredibly small.

I've explored the entire libary (though, to be honest, I've only checked out the FMV titles in the last few years since I didn't bother with most of them back in the day. I have yet to play many FMV titles).

I dig games like Dark Wizard, which is totally underappreciated, IMO (I think it scares folks, but it is an amazing game... just don't expect to ever "master" it :) ).

I've played completely through some Japanese games, such as Nostalgia 1907, to get a better appreciation of what we never saw in the States.

Mansion of Hidden Souls is a game that I rarely see mentioned, but it was  a little gem in its own right. I don't care what jaded reviewers say: the game delivered some truly enthralling sequences and I loved the entire atmosphere and mood that it evoked. Seriousy, folks today are probably too jaded, but back when this game came out, it was friggin' amazing to experience.  It will always hold a special place in my heart and is one of the most over-looked treats of the Sega-CD. Yes, it was easy and rather short, but I loved it nonetheless.

Since we have been discussing WD in another thread, I should mention that I consider WD to be one of the *saving graces* of Sega-CD. Not to repeat myself ad nauseum, but it's worth owning Sega-CD just for WD's offerings.
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esteban

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Re: a reply from me..yay!
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2006, 04:58:51 PM »
Quote from: "turbo_sage"
Now heres something that I hadn't seen people consider:
The GamePads.  The Genesis(original) gamepad was terrible, The TurboGrafx was pretty unorigina, but did the job.  Impossible to play SFII with, but still worked 99% of the time with other games.  But I consider the SNES pads to be one of the best gamepads ever made.  You never needed to buy another gamepad, it worked with everything, except the super scope games(lol)
In the past we've discussed this :)

The only thing I disliked about the Genny were the crap controllers. I hated the design... they were horrible and sloppy. I bought 3rd. party pads and was much happier. Otherwise, I loved Genny.
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grahf

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2006, 05:08:23 PM »
You know they might have worked terrible, but the Genesis pads did look f'in awesome. As for the SNES pads, i also think they are the best console pad ever produced (besides with fighting games, which should be played with a stick anyhow).  A very close second to best pad ever, would be the Gamecube Wavebird. Those are BADASS pads, period. The PCE/TG16 pads may look really basic, but you never notice them while playing- Which is a good thing. My only gripe is the d-pad on them is a tiny stiff.

I know this isnt on topic, but i dont have much to add that already hasnt been said..

Joe Redifer

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2006, 06:24:33 PM »
Quote
In the past we've discussed this

And now we'll discuss it again!  :)

Back when the Genesis first came out, I was pretty happy with the included controller.  I was constantly saying how much more awesome it was than the NES or TurboGrafx at school since it had a whole extra button.  But since the Sega 6-button pad came out for the Genesis, that's all I can use.  Going back and holding one of the original controllers is now completely uncomfortable and unacceptable!  Ug!  The SNES has a good controller and I don't really have any gripes with it other than I prefer two rows of three buttons over a diamond configuration.  Also I could never quite grasp why the buttons were labeled in a backwards manner.  I just figured Nintendo was retarded or illiterate or something.  The original TurboGrafx controller is quite adequate, but once I got the NEC Avenue 6-button controller, I find the original controller a bit too small and/or cumbersome.

PS - I HATE the Playstation controller, especially the d-pad.  Hate.  With much passion.

Black Tiger

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2006, 07:17:26 PM »
I'm not even going to try to comment on the original topic of this thread, since there're already way too many personal opinions being put forward which won't be swayed and a lot of stuff thats definately bogus.

All I'll say is no system will ever reach it's potential limit and the common denominator for any performance is the programmer. Potential 'power' doesn't mean anything if someone doesn't know how to work with it.

And its all about art anyway. You can render the most visually amazing graphics without taxing a system or grind it a halt with an ugly mess depending on your skills.

According to the "common knowledge" thats out there, like most of the crap printed in classic game mags(I'm not going to list any of the hilarious samples I've come accross lately reading old mags), everything Chris Covell (an 'amateur' programmer with no proffessional tools/official dev kit) has done on the PC Engine is not only "impossible", but several times over so and therefore doesn't really exist(he's fooled us all!).

The bottom line is, the Genesis can display very colorful looking graphics, the SNES can push a ton of sprites with no flicker or slowdown and the PC Engine can move any number of independant scrolling bg's and parallax.

And they all sound cool.

In the grand scheme of things, when you look at Odyssey up through XBox 360, the 16-bitters are all pretty much identical.



Quote from: "takashirose"
But if the Sega CD could do a really good job of Dracula X, then why did the Lords of Thunder port not come out as good as the Duo version?


This is just a myth, The Sega CD version is an awesome port, which loses very little considering it's a port of a top quality PCE CD title.

The main difference is the loss of color(more dramatic than most people think if you run them both on emulator) on a technical level, but the result is still a beutiful game.

Its got 95% of the original scrolling bg's and adds in some new ones. Show both versions to any non-gamer and they'll think they're looking at the same game.

The music and sfx may be a little 'less-good' overall, but are still great.

If a quality port of Drac X was made for Mega CD, it'd probably wind up around the same deal, losing a little and adding a little.


Quote
Off-Topic: I have heard a HELL of alot of "This system flopped" or "That failed" but truly in my humble opinion, very few consoles in history failed. Systems like the CDi, The Virtual Boy, and the 32X are indeed failures. Even the PCFX should be considered a failure.


Don't forget the SuperGrafx! ...unless you coun't the entire PC Engine catalog as part of it's library.  :D


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For a PCE to Mega CD port success story, look at Popful Mail, Cosmic Fantasy, and Snatcher.


Popful Mail is actually a completely original game on Sega-CD. Some other PCE CD to Mega-CD success stories though: Space Adventure Cobra, Lords Of Thunder and Burai. And of course there are all the cross format success stories (CD-cart, Cart <-> Hu, Cart - CD).


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Oh, almost forgot...someone had mentioned the SNES' "scaling without scaling" thing that was used a lot in SMB...that effect is called a mosaic pattern. It was a popular, albeit cheesy, effect used in the 90s as a transition. Of course, the SNES was limited even in this effect...it could only affect the background layer, it couldn't affect sprites. However, here's an interesting tidbit for ya...Final Fantasy VI used the mosaic pattern effect for various parts of the game, such as when Tina (Terra) was trying to escape the guards in the beginning and fell down the hole. On the SNES version, you see the background go mosaic, but her sprite remains static. On the Playstation port of the game, the whole screen goes mosaic.


New Adventure Island does a simple version of that effect at the beginning of each level and it's also only the background. I don't hate it(the SNES effect), but it did get overused.

I remember noticing in later SNES games how it would cycle transparencies, since in theory, it can only do one layer. Like when you use a special move/spell in Chrono Trigger and all the shadows and other effects on screen would dissappear right before the spell and then quickly fade back in right after.
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nodtveidt

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2006, 07:18:52 PM »
Quote from: "stevek666"
I dig games like Dark Wizard, which is totally underappreciated, IMO (I think it scares folks, but it is an amazing game... just don't expect to ever "master" it :) ).

Meet Mr Dark Wizard himself...ME! :D I even own the darkwizard.org domain which was originally a complete information site on the game. :) I have to put it up again someday...

Anyways...this thread's kinda funny, but it seems that almost everyone is ignoring the real technical details of the three systems and focusing on the software that was produced for them and trying to compare them that way...furthermore, each of the three has their strengths and weaknesses, so you cannot go on a single issue, because if you do, each system can beat any of the others at any given time! (Well, the Genesis can't really beat the other two on ANY issue, really...but I'll assume it can just to be fair and to make my point). Each of the systems have technical limitations that are mostly incomparable, or that simply cancel each other out. The color one is the easiest to look at...two 9-bit palettes versus a 15-bit palette...one of the 9-bit palettes is generally limited to only 6 bits of its spectrum without hardware tricks (Genesis), while one is free to run its whole 9-bit spectrum effortlessly (PCE). But wait! What about that 15-bit palette (SNES)? Oh, hang on...it's limited to only 8 bits of its spectrum. What looks like an advantage is cancelled by a technical limitation. And that's just one issue...if you look deeply at the capabilities of each machine, you'll find more and more of these oddities.

So to answer the question of whether the PCE could hold its own against the other two on a technical level...of course it could. Despite being the oldest of the three, it was developed by a group of smart people who knew their stuff and weren't happy settling for stock technology...they understood the concept of the console life cycle and built a machine that would last for a long time, unlike their competitors who simply wanted to cash in on the reinvigorated video game market as cheaply as possible.

EDIT: Oh, almost forgot...someone had mentioned the SNES' "scaling without scaling" thing that was used a lot in SMB...that effect is called a mosaic pattern. It was a popular, albeit cheesy, effect used in the 90s as a transition. Of course, the SNES was limited even in this effect...it could only affect the background layer, it couldn't affect sprites. However, here's an interesting tidbit for ya...Final Fantasy VI used the mosaic pattern effect for various parts of the game, such as when Tina (Terra) was trying to escape the guards in the beginning and fell down the hole. On the SNES version, you see the background go mosaic, but her sprite remains static. On the Playstation port of the game, the whole screen goes mosaic. :D

FM-77

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2006, 12:54:56 AM »
Whoever said Popful Mail om Mega-CD was a PCE->MCD port is wrong. Popful Mail on Mega-CD is a remake entirely developed by Sega themselves. Sega - the master developers.

The PCE version is a port of the original PC-8801 version.

Black Tiger

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2006, 07:07:01 AM »
Quote from: "Seldane"
Whoever said Popful Mail om Mega-CD was a PCE->MCD port is wrong. Popful Mail on Mega-CD is a remake entirely developed by Sega themselves. Sega - the master developers.

The PCE version is a port of the original PC-8801 version.


Kinda like Ys IV PCE. Hudson - the other master developer.  :D
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FM-77

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2006, 07:38:22 AM »
Quote from: "Black_Tiger"
Quote from: "Seldane"
Whoever said Popful Mail om Mega-CD was a PCE->MCD port is wrong. Popful Mail on Mega-CD is a remake entirely developed by Sega themselves. Sega - the master developers.

The PCE version is a port of the original PC-8801 version.


Kinda like Ys IV PCE. Hudson - the other master developer.  :D



Yeah, definitely! :)

Joe Redifer

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2006, 12:33:52 PM »
Quote
Well, the Genesis can't really beat the other two on ANY issue, really.

Bias often?  :)

nodtveidt

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2006, 01:47:16 AM »
Quote from: "Joe Redifer"
Bias often?  :)

I knew someone would come back with that. It has nothing to do with bias, I have programmed all three consoles so I have knowledge above and beyond most and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the Genesis has no single advantage over the other two, for any advantage it may have over one is overpowered by the other (example: Genesis has a faster CPU than the SNES but a slower CPU than the PCE...Genesis has more background planes than the PCE but fewer than the SNES, etc etc etc...it has no single technical advantage, and this is due mainly due to Sega's move to use cheap stock components). So call it bias if you like, but it's not true.

Odonadon

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Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?
« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2006, 04:06:07 AM »
Quote
I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the Genesis has no single advantage over the other two


I'm going to have to dispute this - the Genesis is the coolest looking console (probably of all time) :)

OD
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