Wanting to learn Japanese?

[SamIAm]

I certainly don't understand everything I run into either. It's funny you mention belly-buttons, because in the Xanadu I script, I just ran into へそを曲げる - to bend one's belly button. What do you suppose that means?

I looked it up, and it's rather like the English "to get bent out of shape". In other words, it's to let things bother you, let your mood go sour, and let it affect your outward behavior.

I expect to run into this stuff pretty much forever. Nobody ever really masters a language. Not even your native one, when you think about it.

SephirothTNH is absolutely right about the diminishing returns thing. It's when you get into that intermediate-ability/low-return zone that you need to start studying the hardest, but many students sadly go in the opposite direction and hope for some kind of "osmosis" effect to kick in. It ain't gonna happen. I would know, too, because I spent years stagnating in the intermediate stage myself. You need to have your nose in a book or whatever learning new kanji on a daily basis, and for a long time. It's just the nature of the beast.

[seieienbu]

I studied Japanese for 3 years in college and Supposedly, according to my professor, I would've surely passed the level 2 JLPT exam though I was never sure was if she was just trying to build up my confidence or actually believed that I would.  That being said, after 3 years of study, I could play a game pretty well while I had a wordtank in front of me and was willing to spend large amounts of time trying to understand things.  Definitely not everything.  Idioms were indecipherable to me.  The important text was often challenging too.  Meanwhile, you know the stuff that most villagers say in RPGs that doesn't matter?  FF4 example:  "The dark knight is a bit scary bit is cool" ...?  Stuff like that I'd understand well enough.  Items, menus, statuses?  That stuff was all quite easy by the end.  The actual storyline was always what I was the weakest at understanding.

Anyway, my classes met for an hour 3 or 4 times a week depending on which year for 6 semesters.  So, that's roughly 360 or so classroom hours plus the homework I did and the studying, the occasional conversation practice, and the a stack of manga that I translated for practice/fun to, by the end be able to understand most non-story related elements in an RPG as well as some of the storyline provided I was willing to sit down with my electronic dictionary and play the game MUCH more slowly than I would play an English game. 

You don't need to be fluent in real time to get enjoyment out of these games if you can learn enough to slog through then and get adept enough at looking up translations.  I haven't done it in a while, but there's probably much easier ways to go about this stuff now.

[SamIAm]

Yeah, it's ironic that the more important something is, the harder it tends to be to understand. When it comes to big expository back-story, often enough the game has some old guy deliver it in a grandiose and linguistically pseudo-archaic way. Plus, if you're trying to play a CD RPG, there's a good chance that it will be voice-narrated without any text to accompany it. Didn't Ys IV do that in one part?

I was in a very similar boat as you when I finished university. JLPT2-ish, probably in the range of 1000 hours total of proper study in and out of class, could trudge through things if I had a dictionary, and could sort-of-but-not-really "get" what all was happening. Not studying properly during my last year of college is one of my biggest regrets of all time, but literally none of my classmates were doing it either, and the department wasn't going to fail everyone. Actually, my speaking and grammar were above average, but I had a strong dislike of kanji. To be completely honest, I probably only had a good grasp of about 300 or so when I graduated, plus another couple hundred that I could get if the context gave me enough of a hint.

Then I wound up in a crappy job in the middle of nowhere, Kyushu, and thought that better Japanese could be my ticket out. For one year, I crammed nothing but kanji and vocabulary for three hours a day, and I finally got the whole 2000 jouyou kanji under my belt. That changed everything. I felt like I could actually read. Even when I had to look up words, I usually knew the kanji readings, so it only took a couple of seconds. Better yet, though, I found that I could tackle things without a dictionary and still usually get by. This was like the dawn of a whole new era in my language learning.

I really think that nobody is going to be able to feel like they "get" a Japanese RPG until they've studied for over 2000 hours. There's some joy to be had in understanding some of the easier NPC bits and whatever else, don't get me wrong. But to me, playing an RPG at that level is more of a means to an end; it's essentially part of your studying. If you're looking to experience and enjoy an RPG story as and end unto itself, then you will need to have studied your ass off to do it.

Here's an example from Xanadu I. The language is quite plain, and the scene is very simple. It's at the beginning of a chapter, so there's no context other than that the main character, the guy with the blue cape, has just arrived in this town. His name is アリオス, his "rank" or "title" is 百騎長 (a made-up word, basically), and he started the game in a place called クロロス.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32377930/scene.mp4

I wonder if anyone who has studied less than 500 hours could paraphrase what's going on here in some detail? I wonder if anyone with less than 1000 hours could do it without using a dictionary? It's a basic scene, but it sets up what happens over the whole chapter's story. If you didn't "get" what just happened, then what did you get? What are you getting as you continue to play?

I really hope I'm not coming off like a snob here. By all means, anyone who's curious should give studying Japanese by/for playing RPGs a go. I've met some incredible self-taught people, that's for sure. And heck, one of the main reasons I started studying Japanese myself was to play JRPGs. Just know what you're getting into, and have the right expectations and attitude. It could be the start of something really cool in your life.

[deubeul]

Sam, do you have an idea of which PcE RPG would be the easier to understand?
I started (again) to learn japanese 3 months ago and would like to accompany my study with one of them, but I don't know which one could be a good choice to begin with.

[SamIAm]

My strongest recommendation is to play an RPG that you've already played in English, for two reasons.

1. You will enjoy it much more because you won't mind when you don't get something, and you'll understand the overall story no matter what.
2. The fact that you already know what's happening will help you understand specific Japanese words and phrases that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

I re-played my favorite SNES RPGs back when I was more intermediate, and it was much, much better for my learning than playing any game for the first time. In particular it was games that I had played enough so as to be able to remember what individual text boxes actually said.

If you are really hoping to play an RPG for the first time in Japanese, then the easiest one that I've played on the PCE is Xanadu II. The Tengai Makyo games are probably NOT a good idea, because they're loaded with slang and old-timey Japanese stuff.

Maybe Private Eye Doll? That's more of a digital comic than an RPG, but it's quite good. Especially the first chapter.

[BlueBMW]

I took Japanese all four years of High School.  I learned enough to read game titles and pick up on some of the menus etc but forget trying to understand the story in anything.

I think the textbook we used was "Japanese for Busy People" lol

[jtucci31]

I think the textbook we used was "Japanese for Busy People" lol

Heh I googled that book, it's still out there. Thanks for that recommendation, might give it a shot.

This is a great thread and something that's always sort of been lurking in the back of my mind. I can still find great joy in games even when I don't understand the story. It's just great to have translators here to do all of the hard work for us and put some polish on it as well.

[MNKyDeth]

Well, if I ever learn it or not at least this thread has given me an idea of what I might/should need to do in order to accomplish this task.

I have a few projects going on at the moment and was trying to figure out what order I should try to do things in, but it seems if I want to do this I may need to stop one of my projects so I can put in the proper amount of time.

Well, maybe I can acquire some resources now and make that a news years resolution to start focusing on learning some Japanese. I should be able to finish up at least one of my projects by then.

[deubeul]

My strongest recommendation is to play an RPG that you've already played in English, for two reasons.

1. You will enjoy it much more because you won't mind when you don't get something, and you'll understand the overall story no matter what.
2. The fact that you already know what's happening will help you understand specific Japanese words and phrases that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

I re-played my favorite SNES RPGs back when I was more intermediate, and it was much, much better for my learning than playing any game for the first time. In particular it was games that I had played enough so as to be able to remember what individual text boxes actually said.

If you are really hoping to play an RPG for the first time in Japanese, then the easiest one that I've played on the PCE is Xanadu II. The Tengai Makyo games are probably NOT a good idea, because they're loaded with slang and old-timey Japanese stuff.

Thanks for your advice Sam. ManjiMaru is my main motivation for starting to climb that Everest, so I'm aware of having to wait (decades?) to feel totally ready to throw myself in it.

Xanadu2 is another motivation. I'll continue to study waiting for the translation, and will play it in japanese once completed in english. By then...

Maybe Private Eye Doll? That's more of a digital comic than an RPG, but it's quite good. Especially the first chapter.

How could have I not thought about this one? Perfect choice, always wanted to give it a go, it's the ideal opportunity,  thanks Sam!!

[KingDrool]

I wanted to revive this thread and ask the folks who were just starting how it's going. Have you picked up any of the books? Did renshuu.org work for you? Or any of the books that were recommended?

I'm asking because I recently decided to finally give Japanese a shot. I have no delusions about being fluent any time in the near future. But I have been fairly consistent for the last month or so. I've got all of the Hiragana memorized and can identify them fairly quickly. I'm about halfway through Katakana now. I wanted to get those two systems memorized as my first step, just to see how it goes. I'm finding it to be very fun. I'm using the Tuttle book "Japanese Hiragana & Katakana for Beginners". It's got a really nice way of learning and memorizing, with quizzes and worksheets included.

Through my work, I was also able to get Rosetta Stone's Japanese Level 1-3 for a massive discount. I'm not starting on it until I finish memorizing Katakana, though.

So anyway, hearing your experiences would be really cool. Hopefully a couple of you have stuck with it. If not, maybe we could use this thread as a support/help resource?

[Pokun]

Yeah I remember I started out learning hiragana and it was very fun. It's important because it opens up the possibilities of all the study material.

Here are my tips I usually give to people that are learning. No matter if you are taking formal classes or are learning yourself, these general guidelines makes out what I think are the most important points. This is from my own experience in studying Japanese:



1.
Learn kana as soon as possible (normally hiragana is learned first but the order doesn't really matter, you need both), and after that avoid using romaji at all cost.

2.
Get a squared noteblock and start filling it with the characters you are currently practicing (one character per big square). Writing will help you remember the characters too. Be extra careful to get the stroke order correct. A few minutes of practice every day should get you very far.
This is the very basics of writing Japanese, and the basics is the most important part. If you don't get this right, nothing will go right in your future studies.

3.
Use a textbook that doesn't use romaji. It's ok if the first few lessons are in romaji, but not the whole book. In the book you study grammar, text reading, vocabulary, standard phrases and kanji for every chapter (the early chapters probably don't have kanji though).
Japanese grammar is generally quite straightforward, it's just that it's a lot you need to learn (but it's not endless unlike vocabulary).
Trying to mechanically memorize kanji and vocabulary out of context is very hard and makes you forget fast. So that's why you should memorize the ones in the chapter you are currently studying. That way your brain associates the words with the context you found them in. Practicing writing words in your notebook is also a good way to memorize them. You can start out by only using kana, this will help out with your kana/writing practice as well.

4.
Do the exercises in the book for each chapter. This gives you a chance to get practical with your grammar and writing studies. Remember that the basics are the most important, what you learn now will affect all of your future studies.
Listen to the cassette-tape/CD and practice by repeating after the reader over and over (mind the proper pronunciation). It feels very stupid to talk to a wall like this but it is necessary. Even if you are fluent in Japanese in your mind, your tongue also needs to get used to the sound combinations so you need to practice speaking out loud a lot.
There's a study technique called shadowing that is useful, but quite hard to do IMO (but if Japanese was easy we wouldn't need to study in the first place).

5.
If you are serious about learning Japanese, you'll probably need to get yourself a kanji book. The kanji in textbooks are a good start but generally not enough. Basic Kanji Book vol 1 is what I started with (plus the few kanji in Genki 1 and 2) and I liked it. Kanji is also best learned in context, so use the kanji book's texts and exercises as well. Kanji gets easier the more you learn so don't get discouraged if it's a very slow start.

6.
When studying kanji, write them in your noteblock every day like you did with kana, and be extra careful that you get the stroke order correct early on. The general stroke order rules are very easy, and you've already learned the basics just by learning kana, so this shouldn't be a problem by now (what did I say about learning the basics is the most important). Proper stroke order doesn't only make it possible for other people to be able to read what you are writing, but it also helps in the memorization process of kanji. And unlike with roman letters, there is only one set of stroke order rules, and basically all Japanese people knows these general rules.
You'll also need to know about radicals. You learn the radicals for the kanji that you are currently studying. If the book doesn't tell you what radical the kanji has, then look it up in a dictionary or on the internet and write the radical in your book beside the kanji or somewhere in your noteblock, that way you will naturally learn the most common ones pretty fast. You don't do this to memorize what radical every kanji has, but to get a good idea of the most common radicals. Knowing about radicals helps out with the memorization process (since the radical more often than not have something to do with the meaning of the character) and also opens up the possibilities to look up kanji, which will be essential for your future studies. I actually learned all the 214 radicals in the end because I'm interested in kanji, but you are perfectly fine by learning only the most common ones since there are quite a few radicals that's not used much anymore at all.

7.
When writing kanji in your noteblock, you might as well write kanji compositions (words with at least two kanji) that you find beside each kanji in your kanji book. These compositions will now be part of your glossary memorizing so you'll need to memorize the pronunciation as well.

8.
You will probably want a bilingual dictionary. You can get by using only free online dictionaries or smartphone dictionaries for a long time, but a paper dictionary is also good to have. There are vocabulary dictionaries and kanji dictionaries. Paper kanji dictionaries requires that you have learned some radicals.
When you get more advanced in Japanese you will eventually want a good electronic dictionary "denshi jisho". They are usually made for native Japanese people though which is why they aren't very useful for beginner Japanese learners. A denshi jisho is much more practical to use than those smartphone dictionaries, and you will soon find it hard to live without one. You'll want one that at least has a "jump" feature, bilingual word dictionary (your language and Japanese, both ways), monolingual word dictionary (Japanese-Japanese), kanji dictionary with radical lookup, touch-pad/screen + stylus (so you can write kanji in it) and physical qwerty keyboard. I use a Casio EX-Word Dataplus 6 (it's a few years old now) and it has all of that plus a lot more.

9.
As you get more advanced it gets easier to read and understand but you still needs lots and lots of practice. Read lots and lots and lots of written Japanese, listen to lots and lots and lots of spoken Japanese. You can use youtube or Japanese radio or TV and have it always on in the background when you are home. It doesn't matter if you don't understand it or not, the idea is to expose your ears to lots and lots of spoken Japanese. It's not enough that you are watching tons of anime. This is actually what did it for me to finally understand rapid spoken Japanese and then finally pushed me over the threshold for actually start talking with flow.


As with anything you learn, you need lots of patience and will to succeed. Do exercises over and over again even though they are boring. BTW I hate studying but I eventually learned Japanese by forcing myself to.

[KingDrool]

That's very awesome. Thanks for the tips!

[_joshuaTurbo]

I'm also learning... Slowly. 


http://japanese-online.com/ - simple beginner’s resource
http://easyjapanese.org/ - flashcards and games geared toward writing and speaking
http://nhk.or.jp/lesson/english/ - online magazine and language learning lessons

[KingDrool]

If you're looking for a fun way to memorize Hiragana, check out Hiragana Pixel Party on the App Store. It's a neat 8-bit-themed rhythm game. The first batch of levels are free-to-play, so you can download that and check it out. I bought the whole thing because I thought it was fun, and the chiptunes are cool.

[esteban]

If you're looking for a fun way to memorize Hiragana, check out Hiragana Pixel Party on the App Store. It's a neat 8-bit-themed rhythm game. The first batch of levels are free-to-play, so you can download that and check it out. I bought the whole thing because I thought it was fun, and the chiptunes are cool.

I have no delusions of learning Japanese, but, dammit, I'm getting that app.

Like.... now.