TG-16 / PCE vs. Neo Geo

[it290]

So, my question is this: which company/system made a greater mark on American gaming culture, and in what way?   

I like these type of versus threads but I can't comment on this one as I'm from the UK so wouldn't fully know about their impacts on "American gaming culture" back in the day.

Well, change that to 'Western gaming culture,' then—I'm definitely interested in hearing a UK perspective on this as well.

[Enternal]

Neo Geo physical ports were still being released to last gen's consoles. It definitely had a bigger impact in the US. While there were probably more TG systems in America households then a AES, almost any respectable arcade + more had a MVS.

They both are well respected systems. Outside of the big video game consoles makers (Sony, Microsoft, Xbox, Sony) There were a few other systems that tried to take a piece of the market post the 1983 crash. You have the 7800, Jaguar, CDI, 3DO, Neo Geo AES, Turbografx. And they TG and NG are the only ones that hold respectable name today. Of course there are a lot of casual gamers that have never heard of the systems and even Sega's name is starting to fade in association as a console maker. Nevertheless those that were there and those that go back and look at the consoles that we grew up with will see CDI = Crappy. TG/NG = Solid

[it290]

Nowadays, with people who actually play a lot of 16-bit games, I'd say the PCE is more important since it made "home" games that captivate for hours instead of minutes.

I'm not sure this is entirely fair—as a generalization, sure, but I've certainly spent hours upon hours improving my skills at Metal Slug or Strikers 1945+, and back in the day certainly spent many hours competing against friends in SS2. Granted, I'm more of an arcade gamer and when it comes to RPGs I prefer the Western ones, but if we're talking about action-oriented titles I think the shooters, fighters, run 'n' guns, beat 'em ups, etc. on the Neo definitely have the ability to hold one's attention as much as those on the TG/PCE, and that's before you get to games like Neo Turf Masters, Baseball Stars 2 or even Magician Lord (flawed as it is). But yeah, when it comes to the more cerebral or story-oriented games the Neo doesn't hold a candle.

I think that when it comes to cultural impact, though, outside of a few key titles like Bomberman (which is almost a genre unto itself, in a way that other iconic games like Bonk could never be), most of the Turbo's relevance comes from the CD system, since it was an incubator for games that were truly cinematic and epic in scope, and nailed a lot of things that its early competitors (Sega CD) got wrong. Before the Turbo CD you had games that coupled strong narrative with good gameplay on computers, but on consoles it set a precedent that continued into the 32-bit era and beyond.

The flipside of this is that the Neo didn't really innovate in many key areas—the most culturally relevant fighter was (and is) Street Fighter II. Run and gun? Contra. Shooter? Probably Space Invaders or Galaga. Yes, Final Fantasy is more iconic than any TG/PCE RPG, but stylistically the PCE evolved that genre a lot, and also popularized Bomberman. You also had the Crash games, which, although niche and not iconic by any means, introduced many gamers to the whole fantasy pinball concept which is still popular.

Off topic—I was (and am) a huge Amiga fan, and have always admired Cinemaware's games excluding their sports titles. If anything that company was a trailblazer of this sort of cinematic, narrative gameplay, and so I feel they were a great match for the TG-CD, but sadly it seems like they felt the need to redo everything on CD with inferior art direction and gameplay... kind of the thing where vision eclipses taste and the final result suffers. If they had released a version of ICFTD that preserved the style of the Amiga original while adding Redbook, voice acting, and improved action segments, I think the game could have been much more impactful and fondly remembered than it is today.

[SignOfZeta]

Neo Geo physical ports were still being released to last gen's consoles. It definitely had a bigger impact in the US. While there were probably more TG systems in America households then a AES, almost any respectable arcade + more had a MVS.

They both are well respected systems. Outside of the big video game consoles makers (Sony, Microsoft, Xbox, Sony) There were a few other systems that tried to take a piece of the market post the 1983 crash. You have the 7800, Jaguar, CDI, 3DO, Neo Geo AES, Turbografx. And they TG and NG are the only ones that hold respectable name today. Of course there are a lot of casual gamers that have never heard of the systems and even Sega's name is starting to fade in association as a console maker. Nevertheless those that were there and those that go back and look at the consoles that we grew up with will see CDI = Crappy. TG/NG = Solid

I don't understand why that post seems to completely avoid the only console maker who actually generates real profit nowadays, one that's been in the games biz since 1980 or so...

[it290]

I can't say the NeoGeo has better shewties.  They're definitely good looking, but they're generally too damn hard (often cheap quarter munching hard) for my meager skills.

Yep, the only ones I still play are Strikers 1945+, Blazing Star and Aero Fighters II/III, and Viewpoint to some extent for the nostalgia/atmosphere factor alone. Pulstar is great but I'm not big on R-Type style games, and the rest are just relatively average in my opinion.

[thisIsLoneWolf]

If you want to talk about impact, let's not forget that TurboGrafx CD introduced many North American gamers, to the idea of disc based games. An era that we're only now starting to move away from.

The Express showed us what portable games could be, with detailed games on high resolution color screens.

There were a lot of game culture firsts.

[esteban]

Sorry, but I have never been a big fan of vs. fighting games (whatever you want to call the genre).

SFII and all the Neo Geo fighters = EVERYTHING THAT WENT WRONG WITH VIDEO GAMES

I am sorry, I know this is an unpopular view, but I would have much rather seen more games in ANY OTHER DAMN GENRE than more shite fighters.

So, for me, the "biggest impact" Neo Geo had is not a positive impact...it is a decidedly negative impact (lifeblood of fighting genre outside of Streetfighter).

I actually adore the non-fighting Neo Geo games, but let me tell you how hard it was to find them in arcades/pizza parlors...

[SignOfZeta]

You think fighters were worse than FPS, MMORPG, Famville and Big Buck f*cker '98?

You're right, that is an unpopular view.

[Enternal]

And Nintendo sorry I've actually been on medical leave because of a concussion so I'm going to blame it on that.

BTW there are ports of the Samurai Showdown and Metal Slug games on the Wii.

I also feel that's its an awkward comparison to put these two against one another.

I can't remember where it was brought up, but someone made a good point that Neo Geo was allowing ports of their games to be made on other platforms in the 90's. They were targeting a very specific audience and wasn't competing against Nintendo/Sega/NEC. They were all fighting each other during the 16 bit Wars and SNK was off doing its own thing.
 

[Scillianaire]

Maybe im crazy but i actually prefer aero fighters, last resort, striker 1945+, twinkle star sprites, etc to the popular pce shooters. I never cared for sylphia or magical chase. Some of the others are really amazing (cho aniki  ) and if you asked me if i loved pce shmups i would say yes but the quality on the neo geo is without a contemporaneous equal.

[obey my ego]

Bigger impact in north america would be the neo geo. But as many have stated. Most games are quarter munchers.

Owned a neo geo mvs, CD, cdz and a pocket color for 5-6 years now. I also have a 150 in 1 chart. So I've played a lot of the titles.

Only owned a TurboGrafx for a short time. Borrowed a friends ever drive and so far the favor the titles on this system. I especially like the fact it has rpgs. Keeps me busy and imersed in the games longer than the neo geo titles can.

The only reason I can see someone favoring the neo geo is for the fighters. Which is the main reason I originally loved the system.

As for shooters both systems have great titles.

If I had to choose one, I'd pick the TurboGrafx. The rpgs and platfotmers are just more my taste.

[esteban]

You think fighters were worse than FPS, MMORPG, Famville and Big Buck f*cker '98?

You're right, that is an unpopular view.

When SFII and sports games became the huge mainstream push in the video game industry, I knew that developers would gravitate to the money associated with larger consumer bases.

This was well-before 3D polygon crap ruined things further.

I think I have always been clear about my preferences: they are most certainly rooted in 80's/early 90's arcade/8-bit/16-bit. But even in this period, there were crappy shifts to fighting games, sports games, etc.

I am not an idiot: I know that trends change, that the video game industry evolved, blah, blah, blah.

But the Neo Geo's biggest impact was a negative one, for me.

Had the Metal Slugs and Magician Lords and ____________ had any impact at all, then I could praise the influence Neo Geo had on the genres I adore.

But, suffice it to say, the games I love on the Neo Geo were seen as antiques/artifacts/ghosts of yesteryear...the future for Neo Geo was the red-hot fighting genre.

Here's another shocker that I have openly discussed: RPG's are not a genre I particularly like on consoles. I love ARPGs, truly, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy an occasional console-RPG (disclaimer: I spent way too much time playing RPGs on the computer in the 80's...I'm also a former pen-n-paper D&D player...so it's the console-incarnation-of-RPG that has never really been a passion of mine....)

So, yeah. Neo Geo was was a bittersweet omen of the shifts in the video game industry.

[johnnykonami]

I definitely get where Esteban is going, because for me my first memories of playing Neo Geo games were of Magician Lord and Ninja Combat, basically.  If I got lucky I'd see Robo Army or Mutation Nation which I also liked.  Usually you'd get a sports games too, Neo Turf Masters I guess but I was too young and dumb to realize I liked golf at the the time.  Baseball Stars sometimes also. (I happen to really like Baseball Stars 2, btw - toss up between that and Basewars for my favorite baseball game ever and I don't even really like sports that much.) Sengoku was one of my favorites, I didn't see it that much but I did have a solid couple weeks with it on a camping trip once.  At the time it was just so weird and different.  I have to say I don't think I ever saw any of the shooters in a MVS growing up at any point, I think because there were so few.

(Neo) Fighting games didn't really catch on for a while in my memory.... like I remember seeing Fatal Fury (the very first one) and maybe Art of Fighting, but only after a while.  I don't think anyone really cared about them really until Samurai Shodown came out, and even then I remember SS2 being the big hit.  Fatal Fury Special was somewhat popular around the same time also.  When KoF 95' came out that definitely had a following, but nobody (at least around me) paid a lick of attention to 94' (before or after.)  I think it's here the popularity started to snowball for VS fighters. (And mostly of course from SF2 and Mortal Kombat I'm sure).  I am not a huge fan of fighting games, but I have gotten into certain ones for small periods of time - I bought KoF 95' for the Saturn and later on Match of the Millennium for the NGPC, and I liked stuff like Fighter's Megamix as well.  But I know damn well after I see all the characters, all the specials, and stages, I'm basically bored of most of them.  So they have limited appeal.  I definitely appreciate the spritework and artistry involved in the SNK fighters, and I think that is what has really stuck out for me as a lasting impression - they looked damn good.  Nothing looked as good at home for a long ass time.  If they were arcade only, we wouldn't have been as impressed I don't think as many games looked pretty nice in the arcade (but honestly SNK does deserve special recognition in this area.) but since it was possible to get these games on a home console, the comparisons to the SNES/Genesis/TG16 were inevitable - not to mention driven by magazine advertisements which we were all a little bit subject to since that was the best method of getting game related news pre-internet.

When I look back at the Neo library now I am somewhat disappointed that it has so many fighting games.  I tend to like more "adventure" titles whether they be Action RPGs, Dungeon Crawlers, Survival Horror, or Metroid style games, but the Neo had to have games that could be used in an MVS or AES.  So at best you got some pure platformers, none of which I remember being super great (Blue's Journey) or those early Alpha Denshi titles, or the rare shooter (none of which I agree stand out above the many great ones in the PCE's library).  Still, a fair amount of decent non fighting titles exist.  Metal Slug of course needs no introduction and Shock Troopers also comes to mind.  And I have a soft spot for those Alpha Denshi (ADK) titles.  But you do wonder what could have been done with all that power, to make games meant purely to be played at home.  Of course the home system they knew was just a way to play the arcade games at home, the market for AES cartridges wasn't very large since it was beyond the affordability of your average family.

Oh and just for the record, my favorite SNK game is probably Card Fighter's Clash.  Plenting of fighting game references, but a collectable card/strategy crossover game got a lot more time out of me than probably the time spent on all of their fighting games combined.

[ginoscope]

You think fighters were worse than FPS, MMORPG, Famville and Big Buck f*cker '98?

You're right, that is an unpopular view.

When SFII and sports games became the huge mainstream push in the video game industry, I knew that developers would gravitate to the money associated with larger consumer bases.

This was well-before 3D polygon crap ruined things further.

I think I have always been clear about my preferences: they are most certainly rooted in 80's/early 90's arcade/8-bit/16-bit. But even in this period, there were crappy shifts to fighting games, sports games, etc.

I am not an idiot: I know that trends change, that the video game industry evolved, blah, blah, blah.

But the Neo Geo's biggest impact was a negative one, for me.

Had the Metal Slugs and Magician Lords and ____________ had any impact at all, then I could praise the influence Neo Geo had on the genres I adore.

But, suffice it to say, the games I love on the Neo Geo were seen as antiques/artifacts/ghosts of yesteryear...the future for Neo Geo was the red-hot fighting genre.

Here's another shocker that I have openly discussed: RPG's are not a genre I particularly like on consoles. I love ARPGs, truly, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy an occasional console-RPG (disclaimer: I spent way too much time playing RPGs on the computer in the 80's...I'm also a former pen-n-paper D&D player...so it's the console-incarnation-of-RPG that has never really been a passion of mine....)

So, yeah. Neo Geo was was a bittersweet omen of the shifts in the video game industry.

I kind of agree with Esteban I always wondered what else could have been done with the Neo Geo hardware besides fighters.  I know there were many non fighter games but it still crosses my mind.

Can't say I blame SNK for going the direction they did fighters were perfect for arcades at that time.

[GoldenWheels]

I guess I was the only one blown away by The Super Spy?  Upon seeing the perspective I am fairly sure that at the time I actually uttered the words "it's like you're in the game!!!" 


This is kind of an interesting question. Neo seems to have a bit of an unfair advantage IMO....it was an arcade machine and a home console, the Turbo wasn't.

I say that's unfair because at least in my world, I'd have NEVER even known about those SNK games or brand if not for the MVS in the arcade, or maybe because of those ads in the back of EGM. No one I knew owned an AES, for obvious reasons, and it seemed to get no real coverage in mags. So at the time, I'd say the Turbo had the biggest impact, as a home console.

So far as lasting legacy....well, they still put Neo Geo characters in fight games right? Are there any TG specific properties/ips that are still....alive/around?