Author Topic: Look Up Tables in HuC?  (Read 1893 times)

Arkhan

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Re: Look Up Tables in HuC?
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2016, 06:52:55 PM »
Why in the f*ck would Computer Science be an art degree.

who did that.

hit them.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Gredler

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Re: Look Up Tables in HuC?
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2016, 07:32:21 PM »
Why in the f*ck would Computer Science be an art degree.

who did that.

hit them.

I ended up getting a BS, but a BA was what I was going for initially, as a person trying to get employed making art using computer science

Arkhan

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Re: Look Up Tables in HuC?
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2016, 10:15:51 PM »
Why in the f*ck would Computer Science be an art degree.

who did that.

hit them.

I ended up getting a BS, but a BA was what I was going for initially, as a person trying to get employed making art using computer science


Photoshop?

lol
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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TailChao

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Re: Look Up Tables in HuC?
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2016, 03:28:22 AM »
The first course is Java, but from what I've seen of the course descriptions, C++ is definitely required for some classes. I've read that most system level code is still C (instead of C++), so I'm assuming that'll be for some upper division classes as well (OS, compiler, etc).
Java -> C++ -> C -> Assembly is a fairly common CS timeline, with the last two mostly optional depending upon focus.

Why in the f*ck would Computer Science be an art degree.
Colleges haven't really settled on a consistent way to handle "math lite" versions of degrees in science and technology fields. The other popular way is just to add "tech" to the end of the major name (i.e. Electrical Engineering Tech), which is what my college did.

The pitch is that you'll focus on "what's important" - just programming or just designing hardware or whatever. The catch is employers see you did a degree on easy mode, which may or may not work out.

I had originally started ideas for Insanity on the C64 in BASIC/ASM using the goofy programmer reference guide...
That was a pretty good book.

Bonknuts

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Re: Look Up Tables in HuC?
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2016, 09:10:11 AM »
Java -> C++ -> C -> Assembly is a fairly common CS timeline, with the last two mostly optional depending upon focus.
For the UA, Assembly is one of the three course you are required to take in order to unlock this three tier upper division access (BS program). Java and C++ are required in the lower level classes, and I suspect it's C for operating systems (system level programming). Looking over the BA program, Assembly is still required - but no mandatory electives after that.

Quote
Why in the f*ck would Computer Science be an art degree.
They're probably using the old meaning of "arts", as in skill and not art itself. But it seems really strange to have a BA in with a "science" title. Why not name it something else? Well, maybe there are exceptions like Political Science and such. I dunno. It's still weird.

 Anyway, the BA program more flexible in the class choice than the BS program (you're only required to do half of the CS classes and no elective category requirements). The BS program definitely has some rigorous courses and definitely appears to be tailored for continuing on to grad school. The BS program requires ~28creds in 300 or higher level course to graduate (out of 42 total). They won't let me take more than three CS courses a semester. And summer courses are damn expensive :/

 

Arkhan

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Re: Look Up Tables in HuC?
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2016, 05:05:18 PM »
Computer science needs to start with C/ASM, and then C++. 

All these f*cking java/c#/goony programmers are getting dumber and lazier by the day.

If you can't at least manage C++, stay away from programming. 

This may sound cocky, but I don't really care.   I deal with lazy-mode programmer nonsense daily.   It's garbage.   

I talked to a professor when I was in class still.   She and I agreed it would be wise for computer science classes to have a class that spends an entire semester teaching you say, C64, or Apple II.

You can use an emulator and find free software now to let you program the things and learn how to wrap your head around an entire system and do things.

The catch would be finding a professor that hasn't shut their brain off due to tenure.


It's kind of a sad state that these things are in now.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Bonknuts

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Re: Look Up Tables in HuC?
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2016, 08:07:26 PM »
Computer science needs to start with C/ASM, and then C++. 

All these f*cking java/c#/goony programmers are getting dumber and lazier by the day.

If you can't at least manage C++, stay away from programming. 

This may sound cocky, but I don't really care.   I deal with lazy-mode programmer nonsense daily.   It's garbage.   

I talked to a professor when I was in class still.   She and I agreed it would be wise for computer science classes to have a class that spends an entire semester teaching you say, C64, or Apple II.

You can use an emulator and find free software now to let you program the things and learn how to wrap your head around an entire system and do things.

The catch would be finding a professor that hasn't shut their brain off due to tenure.


It's kind of a sad state that these things are in now.

 ^This. I'm both fascinated, and slightly horrified by the mentality and direction of programming is heading nowadays. I've been on Quora the last 6 months scoping out what professional programmers in their fields have to say about all of this, and some if it pretty shocking. I'm trying really hard to remain open minded about a lot of these changes, so I can at least understand them. But it's difficult. For example, Python and its proponents in general perplexes me. Specifically when they think it's the superior programming language in the world (and C/C++ is almost useless and too complex to learn), and we're talking about large scale constructs (dynamic type languages make me cringe). When I look at Python, I think ahh that's cute. And dead easy language to learn with an incredible library (how that came to be, I have no idea); great for beginners stuff. The syntax to me actually feels like some form of BASIC. But I'm shocked someone would create something larger than 100 lines of code with it.

 I starting to understand some the dynamics at play that are influencing these changes in attitudes and programming philosophies (which is directly being driven by the business sector for obvious reasons), but I keep getting this feeling that this is a runaway effect (performance is external; hardware can always be upgraded and cost less than development). And then there's stuff on the opposite end of the spectrum like COBOL still being used (albeit a small fragment of the business community). The more I peer under the professional software world as a whole, the more of mess it seems to be.

elmer

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Re: Look Up Tables in HuC?
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2016, 09:04:20 AM »
All these f*cking java/c#/goony programmers are getting dumber and lazier by the day.

I starting to understand some the dynamics at play that are influencing these changes in attitudes and programming philosophies (which is directly being driven by the business sector for obvious reasons), but I keep getting this feeling that this is a runaway effect (performance is external; hardware can always be upgraded and cost less than development).

Hardware is cheap, but programmers are expensive ... so the obvious solution to getting things "done" is ... cheaper and dumber programmers!  #-o

Everyone just wants to program-to-the-standard-library today, and not to ever have to write anything new beyond gluing library calls together.

I quit a consulting gig recently where the boss wanted to do the project in node.js (one of the currently "hot" software platforms).

He refused to do the project in C/C++ because those languages were obviously too hard, and memory-management is impossible to get right, and C/C++ programmers are difficult to find compared to web programmers (node.js is Javascript).

He didn't realize that node.js is actually just like a modern game engine ... Javascript is the scripting language, but whenever it needs to do something fast, the core functionality is written in C/C++. But whatever ... how hard could it be to do an application in Javascript?

I tried, I really tried, but I had to quit when it became clear (to me) that it's almost-impossible (IMHO) to write good, documented, maintainable code in Javascript.

Now one of the big things about node.js is that there's a built-in package manager (called "npm") with tens of thousands of Open Source libraries that exist ... so you're supposed to make constant use of that resource of high-quality code rather than writing you own stuff.

That's supposed to make it quick to write applications ... but gawd help the poor users who get hit by the bugs!

I found it hilarious that a whole bunch of popular node.js applications crashed recently because one programmer had a hissy-fit and removed his libraries from "npm", and the whole stack came crashing down from the lack of one 11-line trivial library package.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/23/npm_left_pad_chaos/


Computer science needs to start with C/ASM, and then C++. 
...
She and I agreed it would be wise for computer science classes to have a class that spends an entire semester teaching you say, C64, or Apple II.

I'd agree with this. Learn the fundamentals first, then you're in a better position to understand WTF the whole of programming is based on, and you'll get a better appreciation for the good bits of modern programming, and a better idea of what the time/complexity/cpu costs are of what you write.

But this pretty-much-contradicts the commercial pressures in education, which is to get folks out-of-the-door with a degree and lots of debt, knowing just-enough to fit into the workplace.


If you can't at least manage C++, stay away from programming.

IMHO C++ has become a dreadful mess.

The language has evolved to the point where it's nearly impossible to look at something and see what it's doing, or supposed-to-do, without a knowledge of how the program is actually built, and what all of those classes/templates actually do.

It's no mistake that the Visual Studio editor has to basically include a C++ compiler built into itself just so that it can understand the code enough to give you hints on what stuff really means.

I find it completely unsurprising that it was Bjarne Stroustrup himself, the creator of C++, that wrote up the standards-document for software development for the F-35 fighter.

You know ... the F-35 that's very late, and who's radar needs constant rebooting, and that's even when it will actually take off instead of having the system software just shut the jet engine down when it panics (yay for a great example of exception-handling!).
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 09:31:21 AM by elmer »

Arkhan

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Re: Look Up Tables in HuC?
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2016, 09:07:52 AM »
It's a giant mess.  Quora is full of insufferable f*ckups that shouldn't be allowed to talk.

The biggest problem now is, people are lazy.  The programmers learning things now have been brought up in the era of "easy to use".   They think programming should be the same.   They cling to cutesy programming languages with lots of easy features and syntactic sugar or whatever the weaklings call it.

Some languages, like Python, do have their legitimate uses.  It's pretty good for mathematical simulations and experimentation.   It's just a weird language because they let indentation dictate scope, which was stupid of them.

You have other languages like LISP and Prolog which are weird, but have uses.   Functional programming scares most people away, too.

Most people don't want to sit and tinker, or sit and learn how things actually work.   They'd rather have intellisense filling out their code for them, and press a few buttons to get everything going. 

They don't want to understand memory impacts, performance, or how anything really works.    Languages like Java and C# abstract all of this away.    Your average student now, and even average 1-5 year employee at a software company, is afraid of pointers and will say they don't like C or C++ because it's hard.

That's horse shit.

What you ultimately get is people who are lazy, a bit clueless, and used to just googling Stack Overflow for fast answers to broken things.   These people are basically incapable of digging into anything and figuring out a problem.   If the answer isn't on StackOverflow, they are straight up f*cked.

http://www.theallium.com/engineering/computer-programming-to-be-officially-renamed-googling-stackoverflow/


As for C++, alot of the f*ckups you will see and deal with now seem to be caused by people who didn't know what the hell they were doing, banging away in Visual Studio or something, until all the red underlines went away, and it made the little light blink when they pressed Run.

People who are responsible enough with their code know better.

Also, C++11 has some features that shit all over everything.   It's pretty good.

But again, it's like giving blind chimps loaded handguns.

It will go poorly.


OH, and there was also COM.   COM contributed to C++ code being a hot mess now.  Whoever did all that Macro nonsense and said it was a good idea needs to never be allowed to touch a computer ever again. 

Ever.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 09:12:09 AM by Arkhan »
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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spenoza

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Re: Look Up Tables in HuC?
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2016, 09:10:21 AM »
Why in the f*ck would Computer Science be an art degree.

who did that.

hit them.

Bachelor of Arts typically is referring to liberal arts. BAs have broader base requirements across multiple disciplines and are a little less intense in the area of the degree. BA degrees are considered to be more flexible, where as the BS is considered to be less flexible and more area-of-study focused. BS degrees are more common at universities and BA degrees are more common at liberal arts schools. That said, several folks I went to school with at Kenyon came out with BA degrees in the sciences (Kenyon doesn't give out any BS degrees) and are now researchers and scientists, so I don't really think either degree is a hindrance. It could be argued that a BA is in some ways better for folks headed into grad school because BA candidates are often more robustly educated and thus better able to deal with some of the research requirements of grad school. BS degrees are more useful for people going straight into the field and skipping further education because they are more rigorously trained in their chosen academic field.

And it's all generalities, so none of it really matters for any given individual. BA, BS, who cares? Are you competent? Great! That's all that counts.
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spenoza

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Re: Look Up Tables in HuC?
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2016, 09:25:36 AM »
In response to some of this other stuff... Java is a perfectly fine language, and there's tons of evidence out there to support that statement, not the least of which is its widespread popularity and presence in both programming projects and academia. Kinda hard to argue with Minecraft. Mojang certainly made it work for them.

Beyond that, the truly best tool depends a lot on what you're building with it. High-performance 3D game engine? If you aren't working in C or C++, why the hell not? But for anything that's not in a resource-tight environment? Why does it matter if a large-scale document management project isn't written in x86 assembly? Does it do what it was intended to do? Was is developed on-time and in-budget? Is it relatively secure against the more common exploits in the wild, like buffer overflows? Great! You win and nobody cares what language it was programmed in!
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Arkhan

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Re: Look Up Tables in HuC?
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2016, 10:15:15 AM »
The point is that people who start in Java, and cling to it while fleeing the other way from other languages, are generally the kind of people that get hired at a place, ultimately get stuck working on some C++ and will likely go "uhh yeah I can... do that I guess" because they don't want to get fired.

So now you have someone poking around in something "sort of" like Java, getting it to work, but definitely not working right.

That is a gigantic problem. 

It's kind of irresponsible to be a computer programmer without knowing how some of these concepts actually work.

There's too much "fudging it" going on. 


Also, people *do* care what language it was written in, to an extent.

.NET (C#) doesn't exactly play nice with cross platform yet.   They've started to try doing that correctly now, but, things that are stuck in C# land are a bit hosed if they want to really be multi platform.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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spenoza

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Re: Look Up Tables in HuC?
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2016, 10:34:49 AM »
The point is that people who start in Java, and cling to it while fleeing the other way from other languages, are generally the kind of people that get hired at a place, ultimately get stuck working on some C++ and will likely go "uhh yeah I can... do that I guess" because they don't want to get fired.

So now you have someone poking around in something "sort of" like Java, getting it to work, but definitely not working right.

That is a gigantic problem. 

It's kind of irresponsible to be a computer programmer without knowing how some of these concepts actually work.

There's too much "fudging it" going on. 


Also, people *do* care what language it was written in, to an extent.

.NET (C#) doesn't exactly play nice with cross platform yet.   They've started to try doing that correctly now, but, things that are stuck in C# land are a bit hosed if they want to really be multi platform.


Those points I can definitely agree with. Don't code in a language if you're not willing to come to terms with it. If a project needs C, learn C correctly and do it well. If the project doesn't really need C, but some manager has it in his head that he wants C, that gives you two options. Make the case for using a familiar language that still meets the needs of the project, or learn C and learn to do it well so you can do that project in C.

Quote
Also, people *do* care what language it was written in, to an extent.

.NET (C#) doesn't exactly play nice with cross platform yet.   They've started to try doing that correctly now, but, things that are stuck in C# land are a bit hosed if they want to really be multi platform.

I didn't mean to imply language isn't important, only that there is no one grand language to rule them all. There are only projects with specific needs and guidelines. You match a language to the project. As long as the language is good enough, you're in the clear. In this case, if multi-platform is one of the specific guidelines, C# is not only not ideal, I'd argue it's not even "good enough".
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 10:38:15 AM by spenoza »
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Arkhan

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Re: Look Up Tables in HuC?
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2016, 10:52:20 AM »
Yeah see the thing is, if you know how to handle C/C++/ASM, and understand how a computer works, the newer things fall into place easily.


It doesn't go the other way though.   You basically get flailing, until the red underlines go away and it builds.

It's a mess, lol
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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spenoza

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Re: Look Up Tables in HuC?
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2016, 11:31:28 AM »
Yeah see the thing is, if you know how to handle C/C++/ASM, and understand how a computer works, the newer things fall into place easily.


It doesn't go the other way though.   You basically get flailing, until the red underlines go away and it builds.

It's a mess, lol

I think someone who learned higher-level languages could still go on and learn a lower-level language. I agree it's probably a good bit easier to go the other way. But I think someone could learn on a higher-level language, stick to those languages, and still be a fantastic programmer. I think it's unnecessary for every programmer to know both high-level and low-level languages. There are so few projects these days (compared to the total number of programming and app development projects) that require those specific skill sets. I don't mean to suggest low-level programming is dying or unnecessary, just that I'm not convinced it's something that should be required for anyone who wants to do programming for a living.

I think of it as a very specific skill set. Valuable and useful, but not necessary for everyone.
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