Always wondered...

[elmer]

There is no official word of this, I never meant to imply the info existed somewhere publicly. Just look at the release schedule, the almost zero support from anyone, even Hudson. There was never any hope for the thing to catch on and stay that way.

"Cancelled" would imply that NEC had given up on it, but they were likely the ones that shoved the SGX down Hudson's throats and said "make something great for this!!!".

Thanks for the clarification.

There's no doubt that something went drastically wrong between the initial planning and reality upon release.

I'd love to hear the real story of what NEC's was actually thinking.

I was one of the "oh-so-smart" folks that per-ordered the SuperGrafx as a grey-import before it was released, based upon the hype and promises at the time, and on my love of a friend's PCE briefcase setup.

I remember hearing about its eventual release in Japan and how it sold over 50,000 units in the first week, which IIRC was very good for the time in Japan.

You can only imagine my feelings upon eventually receiving my console a couple of months later together with ... Battle Ace!

I still have it, together with the frighteningly-huge credit-card receipt!

Also, it's kinda apples to oranges. By the time 8mb SFC carts had become common place the PCE had moved almost exclusively to CD and the SGX was long dead. Just look at the release timeline guys, it's a very valuable testament to what was going on back then.

Yep, I agree. The 8Mbit limit on HuCards really wasn't a problem until way beyond the time that CDs had taken over.

IHMO, the bigger problem with the PCE was its tiny 8KB of RAM that made it harder to sensibly store compressed data on the HuCard, and then the initial CD unit that only had 64KB RAM for loading the current program and data.

so far, a lot of this conversation is looking at video games in a vacuum within the walls of NEC.
Video games were a small slice of NECs holdings overall.  A few factors I'm sure play into the history of the supergrafx.

You've got some very interesting points ... especially with NEC itself, who never seemed to really understand the video game business.

With it being such a small-and-new part of their overall business, the executives in charge of the PC Engine probably didn't have the power within the organization to commit the resources needed to run the business like Nintendo or Sega did (nor did they appear to have the skill).

[SamIAm]

They did engineer more cost effective cards, they're called CDs.

I love PCE-CD games, but when the necessary hardware to play them cost more money than the core demographic of gamers at the time - middle-class elementary-school-aged children - could ever hope to convince their parents to buy, they seem a poor substitute for games on a cheap base system as a mainstay.

Yes, the Duo was given the hail-mary price of only (only) $300 in the US, but in Japan, it was going to cost you basically twice that to play CD games through any means until the RX came out in mid-1994.

It's been generally agreed upon since these games were current, that the success and publishing costs of CD games is what limited HuCard sizes. Log before the Duo/SCD format. Otherwise, why are there so many CD2 games? Why bother making a HuCard any bigger when you could maje 2 CD games for the same cist and they'd each sell better than that HuCard?

We have sourced numbers stating that A) there were far more people in Japan who had a core Hucard system only than people who had either the CD expansion or the Duo B) yearly sales of CD games as a whole never reached the same levels as Hucard games at their peak, and C) Hucard sales tanked in Japan right after the Super Famicom came out.

I don't think the transition to focusing on the CD platform happened because Hudson decided to slip the surly bonds of earth and fly to the stars. I think it's because their battleship was torpedoed by Nintendo, and their premium CD platform turned out to be a very good life-boat.

The high number of CD games was probably because the CD system did manage to find a comfortable and long-lasting niche.

"Cancelled" would imply that NEC had given up on it, but they were likely the ones that shoved the SGX down Hudson's throats and said "make something great for this!!!".

Hudson and others of course responded by reluctantly throwing one or two of their projects towards the SGX.  Duty fulfilled, they then ignored the system as was their desire all along.  I'd say only NEC Avenue (big shock, eh?) had any enthusiasm for pushing the SGX's hardware beyond what the PCE could do.

Is that really how it went, though? I'm not saying it's irrational at all, but has it been written anywhere that the SGX was in fact basically NEC's idea? I glanced through my late 1989 issues of Marukatsu PC Engine and couldn't find anything to that effect.

Hudson was a complex company, and they dreamed big. I wouldn't be surprised if the SGX came mostly from them.

[Otaking]

Is that really how it went, though? I'm not saying it's irrational at all, but has it been written anywhere that the SGX was in fact basically NEC's idea? I glanced through my late 1989 issues of Marukatsu PC Engine and couldn't find anything to that effect.

SamIAm I have a Japanese interview with NEC about the SuperGrafx (and Power Console) would you be up for translating it for us?

If yes I'll PM you the scans and start a new thread in the PC Engine forum section.

The interview is from a brochure/pamphlet NEC did just before the SuperGrafx release.

[BigusSchmuck]

Is that really how it went, though? I'm not saying it's irrational at all, but has it been written anywhere that the SGX was in fact basically NEC's idea? I glanced through my late 1989 issues of Marukatsu PC Engine and couldn't find anything to that effect.

SamIAm I have a Japanese interview with NEC about the SuperGrafx (and Power Console) would you be up for translating it for us?

If yes I'll PM you the scans and start a new thread in the PC Engine forum section.

The interview is from a brochure/pamphlet NEC did just before the SuperGrafx release.

That would be awesome, and maybe sticky it for future reference?

[bob]

so far, a lot of this conversation is looking at video games in a vacuum within the walls of NEC.
Video games were a small slice of NECs holdings overall.  A few factors I'm sure play into the history of the supergrafx.

You've got some very interesting points ... especially with NEC itself, who never seemed to really understand the video game business.

With it being such a small-and-new part of their overall business, the executives in charge of the PC Engine probably didn't have the power within the organization to commit the resources needed to run the business like Nintendo or Sega did (nor did they appear to have the skill).

I assume this played into the partnership with Hudson overall.  Just like Nintendo and Sega, during the early 90's, the core business WAS video games so it was probably tough for them to get priority on NECs powerpoints.

[SamIAm]

IHMO, the bigger problem with the PCE was its tiny 8KB of RAM that made it harder to sensibly store compressed data on the HuCard, and then the initial CD unit that only had 64KB RAM for loading the current program and data.

I was just reading the December 1989 issue of Marukatsu PC Engine, and they actually mention the compression aspect when talking about the advantages that the Supergrafx's larger main-RAM has over the base PCE.

Some other interesting points:

- They say the extra RAM is also very good for playing sound samples, and vastly expands the possibilities for doing pseudo-3D games.

- The Power Console was a really big deal pre-launch. Seriously, the way it's introduced, it's practically the other half of the Supergrafx. It had a fully analog joystick, lever, and steering handle combo. It had its own CPU and 8k of RAM. It had a light-up LED panels that acted like gauges. It had the ability to store short strings of button presses. It had a built-in calculator. It had multiple ports to connect regular controllers. And the Supergrafx didn't connect to it via cable; you literally stuck the front of the Supergrafx into the back of the Power Console.

Also, it was going to cost 59800 yen.

- In addition, they teased just how many different perhiperals - such as light guns - would be connectable through that front port on the console.

- They emphasize in a large column that the 68000 is really only stronger as a CPU when you're doing operations that are more complex than what most games really need.

- By the way, it's really interesting that the Supergrafx was released in December '89, but there were no announcements about it until the October issue. Granted, I think that that issue was technically published in September, but still, before then, there was nothing. Daimakaimura and Strider were initially announced as regular PCE games the month before.

- Finally, many PCE owners wrote in angry that their system was about to become obsolete. It could be that this backlash is part of the reason why NEC/Hudson didn't do much to support the Supergrafx.

[elmer]

Yes, the Duo was given the hail-mary price of only (only) $300 in the US, but in Japan, it was going to cost you basically twice that to play CD games through any means until the RX came out in mid-1994.

Ouch! I knew that the briefcase was an absurdly-expensive combo, but it hadn't hit me that the Duo and Duo-R still came with such a huge price tag in Japan, I'd always imagined them hitting the equivalent of that $300 US price.

That's more expensive than HuCard-only, yes, obviously ... but you're getting a much better platform with the Super System Card built in ... and it's basically the same price that the PlayStation launched at.

Were the Duo and Duo-R sold in Japan at the equivalent of the $399 Sega Saturn launch price?

I don't think the transition to focusing on the CD platform happened because Hudson decided to slip the surly bonds of earth and fly to the stars. I think it's because their battleship was torpedoed by Nintendo, and their premium CD platform turned out to be a very good life-boat.

The PC Engine is/was a wonderful system, but technology was moving really fast back in those days, and the 3 years of difference in timing made it affordable for Nintendo to put a lot more graphical and sound goodies into the SNES.

Despite the things that Nintendo goofed on ... it's pretty hard to try to argue against the opinion that the SNES is a better cartridge-game system than the PCE.

As a bunch of tech-geeks, even Hudson's programmers wanted to develop for it.

But from 1987-1990, the PCE beat everything else on the market, including (IMHO) the MegaDrive.

But, as I've said before, the most-interesting thing about the PCE is the CD ... that changed the industry, and allowed for wonderful experiences like Ys (early on) and Xanadu (later on), and even Sapphire and the Arcade Card Neo Geo ports.

Is that really how it went, though? I'm not saying it's irrational at all, but has it been written anywhere that the SGX was in fact basically NEC's idea? I glanced through my late 1989 issues of Marukatsu PC Engine and couldn't find anything to that effect.

Hudson was a complex company, and they dreamed big. I wouldn't be surprised if the SGX came mostly from them.

It wouldn't surprise me if Hudson's tech-geeks had a big part in evangelizing to NEC about just why they should bring out the SuperGrafx to compete against the MegaDrive and whatever-Nintendo-were-cooking-up.

Remember Hudson were still developing for Nintendo and they may well have had early-access to SNES developer info (a 2-year lead isn't uncommon to get top developers on-board).

- The Power Console was a really big deal pre-launch. Seriously, the way it's introduced, it's practically the other half of the Supergrafx. It had a fully analog joystick, lever, and steering handle combo. It had its own CPU and 8k of RAM. It had a light-up LED panels that acted like gauges. It had the ability to store short strings of button presses. It had a built-in calculator. It had multiple ports to connect regular controllers. And the Supergrafx didn't connect to it via cable; you literally stuck the front of the Supergrafx into the back of the Power Console.

Also, it was going to cost 59800 yen.

Someone was definitely snorting too much Peruvian Marching Powder to ever think that was going to work out well! 

In some ways, it almost seems like they were trying to produce a cut-down version of the Sharp X68000 and its Cyber Stick.

The SuperGrafx's 128KB VRAM and 64-sprites-per-line comfortably beats both the SNES and the MegaDrive, and begins to approach the X68000.

Finally, many PCE owners wrote in angry that their system was about to become obsolete. It could be that this backlash is part of the reason why NEC/Hudson didn't do much to support the Supergrafx.

The backlash may well have surprised NEC who, I suspect, were more used to the regular backwards-compatible upgrade-cycle of computers ... where the SuperGrafx could basically be seen as just an upgraded high-end PCE.

The lack of developer interest (who thought that the PCE was "good-enough", and didn't want to develop for a split-market) was probably the bigger factor.

[Necromancer]

Even though they have close release dates, I'm sure the TG-16 was being planned long before the SGX was born.  For the SGX to have been released as the original TG-16, they would've had to scrap their plans and delayed the US launch for another year or more.

[SamIAm]

Ouch! I knew that the briefcase was an absurdly-expensive combo, but it hadn't hit me that the Duo and Duo-R still came with such a huge price tag in Japan, I'd always imagined them hitting the equivalent of that $300 US price.

That's more expensive than HuCard-only, yes, obviously ... but you're getting a much better platform with the Super System Card built in ... and it's basically the same price that the PlayStation launched at.

Were the Duo and Duo-R sold in Japan at the equivalent of the $399 Sega Saturn launch price?

The Duo was 60,000 yen.

The Duo-R, which came out in mid-93 was 50,000 yen, and the RX was 40,000 yen.

My bad, the Duo-R was 40,000, and the RX was 30,000. Sorry about that!

[Zero_Gamer]

Ouch! I knew that the briefcase was an absurdly-expensive combo, but it hadn't hit me that the Duo and Duo-R still came with such a huge price tag in Japan, I'd always imagined them hitting the equivalent of that $300 US price.

That's more expensive than HuCard-only, yes, obviously ... but you're getting a much better platform with the Super System Card built in ... and it's basically the same price that the PlayStation launched at.

Were the Duo and Duo-R sold in Japan at the equivalent of the $399 Sega Saturn launch price?

The Duo was 60,000 yen.

The Duo-R, which came out in mid-93 was 50,000 yen, and the RX was 40,000 yen.

What was that in USD at the time?

[SamIAm]

Apparently 60,000 yen was about $550. But remember, just because the yen was a little weaker doesn't mean people were making more of it. A dollar bought 80 yen a few years ago; a few months ago it bought 120. People's salaries sure as heck didn't go up 50%.

60,000 yen in 1991 was a lot of money. It was well out of the range of middle-class Japanese kids to ask for.

For reference, the Saturn came out at about 50,000 yen, but it came with a 5,000 yen rebate. It also went down to 40,000 yen in about seven months.

Super Famicom came out at 25,000 yen.

[Zero_Gamer]

Apparently 60,000 yen was about $550. But remember, just because the yen was a little weaker doesn't mean people were making more of it. A dollar bought 80 yen a few years ago; a few months ago it bought 120. People's salaries sure as heck didn't go up 50%.

60,000 yen in 1991 was a lot of money. It was well out of the range of middle-class Japanese kids to ask for.

For reference, the Saturn came out at about 50,000 yen, but it came with a 5,000 yen rebate. It also went down to 40,000 yen in about seven months.

Super Famicom came out at 25,000 yen.

Lot of money then... He'll that's a lot of money now for some. Lol Inflation adjusted that's even more

[SamIAm]

Sorry! I got the numbers for the Duo-R and RX wrong. It was 40,000 and 30,000 respectively, not 50,000 and 40,000.

The original duo was definitely 59,800. Also, the Super CD system was 47,800.

[esteban]

My thoughts on the DUO-R:

http://archives.tg-16.com/Gekkan_PC_Engine_1993_05.htm#duo_r_reduced_price

...but the more interesting tidbit is how the price of the CoreGrafx held firm for so long!

http://archives.tg-16.com/Gekkan_PC_Engine_1993_05.htm#coregrafx_ii_reduced_price



TANGENT: I was trying to figure out the cost of the BOSE subwoofer + speaker system...and I was trying to use Yen<->USD calculators (based on data from 1993 exchange rates) to get the most accurate approximation of buying power... BUT, I still don't know if I am in the right ballpark:

http://archives.tg-16.com/Dengeki_PC_Engine_1993_11.htm#hudson_soft_by_bose

¥89,000 ~ 870 USD in 1993...

...but what would that be today, adjusted for inflation?

[SamIAm]

If you want to go by inflation calculators, which use consumer-price-indexes, and exchange rates, 89,000 yen in 1993 would be like $1400 today. The Japanese Duo, in 1991, was about $950 today.

That's with a bit of rounding, of course.

You have to keep in mind, however, that exchange rates aren't really fair - they're not based on domestic buying power to anywhere near the degree that they're based on import/export activity and speculation in financial markets, along with other global-political factors.

Similarly, CPI inflation calculators don't give a totally cut-and-dry picture of a currency's domestic strength just because the prices of different goods fluctuate in different ways.

If you really want to know what 89,000 yen was like for a Japanese person in 1993, you have to look at what wages were like, what living expenses and disposable incomes were like, and what perceptions about the economy were like i.e. whether people expected to be making more money next year.

I don't know exactly what 89,000 yen was like back then...but it was a lot. For a young single person outside of the densest urban areas, it was two month's rent. On the other hand, the high from the 80s bubble hadn't totally worn off yet, and wages for full time workers were actually higher than now. Domestic manufacturing was still very strong, and there was more optimism.

It's a big dumb messy can of worms. I think the only important thing to take away from the numbers is that there was a big price barrier to getting involved in PCE-CD games and buying the bells-and-whistles, even if the software itself wasn't more expensive than the competition.